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I recently came across these 2 vintage Gibsons that used to belong to a professional musician (they bear the scars to prove it) and am curious whether anyone can identify these models, approx. what year they are from as well as thoughts on their current value?
Advance thanks for your help,
v281Last edited by v281; 05-19-2019 at 12:32 PM.
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05-19-2019 12:02 PM
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1950's ES-225
Early 60's Les Paul SG
Assuming they're all original about $1500-1700 for the 225
If the SG has original PAF pickups, maybe 8-9K, smashed knob notwithstanding
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The top one looks like an ES 225 single pickup from the 50s. The fact that the P90 is ( unfortunately) in the middle position, and that the 50s style bridge/ tailpiece unit won't intonate properly or lower the action enough, would suggest that it won't command much of a price to a modern player, though a collector might go for it.
The lower pic is of an SG custom with 'sideways' vibrato. I'll let others comment on the value, but it will be more of a playable instrument than the ES 225.
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The top one is an ES-225.
The bottom guitar is an SG Custom although sometimes I've heard them called Les Paul customs.
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The second one is, as wintermoon said, and early ‘60s Les Paul Custom (SG), based on a quick look, probably 1962 or early 1963. In 1963 the tremolo changed from the side pull to the more familiar Maestro. Based on what I can tell if the originality, if the pickups are original PAFs, it should bring $14-16k in the current market.
That’s assuming that there haven’t been any neck breaks, which is common in these and can occur either at the headstock or the heel. This one appears to have a prominent crack at the base of the headstock. This may only be a finish crack, but would make a lot of buyers wary. A repaired break could easily cut the value in half.
An actual break is one of the things that often causes a lot of sellers to part out guitars like this because the value of the individual parts becomes greater than that of the whole.
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Thanks for the fast response, great info and insightful answers guys, I really appreciate them.
I believe the line you mentioned ThatRhythmMan is indeed a finish crack - to the best of my knowledge the guitar is all original and the headstock/neck has never broken, but I didn't inspect it very closely.
I've relayed this information to his widow, the current owner.
Cheers,
v281
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First one is ES-225T (1955 to 1959)
Second one has the name under the neck: "Les Paul Custom."
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I thought maybe the tuners had been replaced until I ran into this little bit of history:
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I see no headstock break on the '62 Les Paul Custom. Virtually every circa 1962-1966 white, Les Paul/SG Custom that I have played (or owned) has had plenty of weathering fractures in the finish on the neck. There was lots of flexure in the long necks on those SGs. The nitrocellulose finish, with the white undercoat, offered plenty of occasion to exhibit weather checking/flexion finish cracking. This is significantly different than a headstock break.
I used to play jazz on my '65 white SG Custom all the time. Great sounding guitars.
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I agree with you completely, but knowing vintage guitar buyers very well, a prominent lacquer crack in a suspect area is guaranteed to bring many questions. I think that’s fair when it can change value so dramatically. It’s just something to be prepared for if one were selling it.
Originally Posted by Greentone
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true. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
I had a Super 400 shipped to me once w/a line on the back of the headstock.
I looked at it a hundred different ways, blacklighted it, magnified it, just couldn't tell if it was a crack or a heavy check. I showed it to several people and they couldn't tell either.
So back it went to the seller, who was very upset, but I just didn't want to deal w/it if I ever had to sell the guitar down the line.
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Always thought this is a way-cool picture in so many ways. I never could get it straight, but I *think* only the 3-pu model says "Les Paul" above the neck pu. Maybe someone can prove me wrong. <ps- Note the strap button(?) on Les's git.>
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WoodySound,
You are correct. Only the 3-pickup 'Custom' model is the one that, for about 18-months (IIRC) said "Les Paul Custom" between the fingerboard and neck pickup--until Les Paul severed his contract with Gibson so that Mary Ford wouldn't get assets in the divorce. FWIW, mere mortals couldn't get a two-pickup "Custom" like the ones in your picture--to the best of my knowledge.
I asked him about why he broke the contract with Gibson and this is what I was told. (Also, he really didn't care for the SG style solid body, although I always liked it better than the traditional LP. But, heck, he's Les Paul and I'm late for dinner.)
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Blowing that photo up, it looks to me as if that's a knob on the bass horn, not a strap button. But I can't be certain, and I have no idea what a knob there would do.
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The 2 pickup models that Les and Mary are holding must be some sort of prototypes. Note the 'bat-wing' style pick guards with pickups set directly in that, instead of mounted in rings screwed to the body like OP's. They started doing that a few years later.... 65 or 66. Note that they have the sideways vibrola, which went out in about '63.
I owned a '61 Les Paul (SG) from about '69 to '76. It was the 'cherry' finish, had the sideways vibrola and 2 PAFs mounted in rings directly on the mahogany. It had the smaller pick guard like the OP's. I think mine was known as a Les Paul Standard and only had his name on the truss-rod cover, so what you and Woody are saying about 'Custom' and where his name is holds up.
I got rid of that vibrola almost immediately. It was an intonation nightmare, but I wish I'd kept track of it given what it's worth now. I was relieved of the rest by thieves.
The '61 had a notably wider and thinner front to back neck than later SG's. It was kinda flat on the back, like classical. I really liked it even though I was playing jazz at the time :-). I guy in LA named Art Johnson did too.
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Yeah... it does look like that. Maybe it's left over from when it had 3 pickups. Maybe an experiment that ended in 2 pickups? (I'll admit to being a little confused by 3 pickups, 4 knobs and a 3-way switch) Originally Posted by sgosnell
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The knobs work the same as a two pickup model. The switch is neck pickup in the rhythm position, bridge in the treble, and middle and bridge pickups out of phase in the middle. If you listen to Sister Rosetta Tharpe play hers, she always had it in the middle position.
Last edited by ThatRhythmMan; 05-21-2019 at 04:25 PM.
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Less Paul had a mic volume knob hemail installed on the bass horn.
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This is a reissue I used to gig with. It was a great little guitar, one I'm sorry I didn't keep.
Danny W.
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Theverything 60s Custom I had was super--if you weren't bothered by fretless wonder Gibson frets.
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"both pickups out of phase in the middle": Which two pickups? Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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It's been 45 years since I owned an SG Custom. IIRC, switch up was neck pickup. Switch down was bridge pickup. Switch middle was the middle and bridge pickup. There was no provision for the middle pickup alone.
FWIW, I almost always played on the neck pickup.
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Good point! It would help if I said which two. I believe Greentone is correct that it’s the middle and bridge. I will try to check later today. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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IIRC, clicking my pick against the pickup covers revealed this pattern of wiring. HB pickups shouldn't be microphonic, but I've always found them to be at least a bit sensitive to clicking the pick against the covers.
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