How to get a great jazz guitar tone

[sgosnell]

I didn't mean to say that one should never roll off the tone control a little. With some guitars in some situations I roll the tone off by up to maybe 90 degrees. I was talking about rolling the tone waaaay back, which sounds terrible to me on any guitar. It's all a matter of taste, though.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yeah, passive tone and volume controls, in my understanding, all work with the same principle. Although different pot and cap values change the sweep and amount of their effect. But that's true between different amps as well. Most amps also have interactive tone knobs..

If you drew the circuit diagram of a guitar with a common tone control (cap through a pot to ground) and an amp with the same kind of tone control -- I think the two of them would be seen to be essentially electronically identical if the pot and cap had the same values. The diagram would show the same path to ground (thru cap and pot) at either end of the guitar 1/4" cable.

Meaning, the pickups are affected either way. To avoid that, there would have to be some kind of buffer at the front end of the amp.

But, I'm not expert. If any of this is wrong, maybe somebody will explain it.

Of course, amps may not have a passive treble roll-off tone control. But, some do.

EDIT: I just checked the schematic of an old Ampeg with a treble roll-off and KirkP is correct, at least for this amp. There is a gain stage before the volume and tone controls. I suspect he's right about most or all -- so that the treble roll off on the amp is not the same thing as the treble roll off on the guitar.

[One_Note]

I didn't mean to say that one should never roll off the tone control a little. With some guitars in some situations I roll the tone off by up to maybe 90 degrees. I was talking about rolling the tone waaaay back, which sounds terrible to me on any guitar. It's all a matter of taste, though.

I agree, doing it to that extent chokes the life out of the tone.

[KirkP]

If you drew the circuit diagram of a guitar with a common tone control (cap through a pot to ground) and an amp with the same kind of tone control -- I think the two of them would be seen to be essentially electronically identical if the pot and cap had the same values. The diagram would show the same path to ground (thru cap and pot) at either end of the guitar 1/4" cable.

Meaning, the pickups are affected either way. To avoid that, there would have to be some kind of buffer at the front end of the amp.

But, I'm not expert. If any of this is wrong, maybe somebody will explain it.

Of course, amps may not have a passive treble roll-off tone control. But, some do.

Every amp I’m aware of has at least one gain stage between the input jack and any controls, which isolates the amp’s controls from the pickup. Unless your guitar has a built-in powered buffer the guitar’s tone controls represent a varying load impedance to the pickup, so as you vary the controls you are not only affecting what frequencies are passed through, but you are also affecting the frequency response of the pickup. I think the effects on the pickup response are pretty small with moderate treble and tone control cuts, but with deep cuts the pickup output is affected dramatically. I prefer the tone most of my guitars with a moderate rollback on the volume and tone controls. But we all have different tastes and I’ll never tell anyone else how to set their controls (unless they ask).

[rpjazzguitar]

Every amp I’m aware of has at least one gain stage between the input jack and any controls, which isolates the amp’s controls from the pickup. Unless your guitar has a built-in powered buffer the guitar’s tone controls represent a varying load impedance to the pickup, so as you vary the controls you are not only affecting what frequencies are passed through, but you are also affecting the frequency response of the pickup. I think the effects on the pickup response are pretty small with moderate treble and tone control cuts, but with deep cuts the pickup output is affected dramatically. I prefer the tone most of my guitars with a moderate rollback on the volume and tone controls. But we all have different tastes and I’ll never tell anyone else how to set their controls (unless they ask).

Thanks. I checked the schematic on the amp I was thinking of and you're right. I edited the post.

[yebdox]

I thought this gentleman's advice interesting, so I tried it. Doesn't work for me at all. I am more in favor of starting with the tone rolled completely off on the guitar, then slowly advancing it towards treble until you hear the shift or crossover, when the 'blanket' lifts, so to speak.

OTOH, playing with mids, up or down on the amp can make a good sounding guitar much better. The reminder that what you hear on stage is NOT what people hear out front is very true. Not completely relevant, but I'm a big Robben Ford fan and one time at Jazz Alley, had a chance to sit directly in front of his amp for the first set (stage level) - painful and bit shrill, not at all what I expected. Moved to the balcony for the second set and Voila! - there was that famous RF Dumble tone in glorious spades. Big eye opener for me.

[sgosnell]

The lower the frequency, the longer it travels. Elephants communicate over many miles using sounds below human hearing. A car driving by with a teenager in it may shake my windows, but only the bass makes it inside. Higher frequencies are attenuated much quicker and easier, so if your audience is far away, you need lots of treble. That's just an unalterable physical law.

[rpjazzguitar]

I just came back from hearing a band with guitar, kb, acoustic bass, drumset and a guy playing conga and cajon at the same time.

The guitarist had a modern looking solid body instrument I didn't recognize. He had good time, interesting chordal work and good improvised melody.

But, somehow, the guitar sounded too loud and too thick in the audience. Hard to describe. I'd be willing to bet it sounded much better where the guitarist was standing.

I wasn't even sure what was wrong. The kb was pretty busy, the drummer used a fair amount of cymbal. And the conga and cajon were constant.

Was there anything wrong with any individual on that stage? Or, was it that their choices for individual sounds just didn't work together-- out in the audience, even if they did sound good on stage. There's a lot of low midrange energy in those instruments.

[Cunamara]

I've seen Pat Metheny twice, and I found his tone to be painfully dull on both occasions. While I loved his playing, I would have enjoyed the performances more if his sound had been more detailed.

I used to really enjoy his sound, in the early days (up to Offramp, not so much after that with PMG although I like a number of his later trio albums). His use of multiple amps and different delay times to the different amps has the effect to my ears of smearing the notes out across time so that they become indistinct and blurry. He might be playing fantastic stuff but the notes are so horsed up that it's indistinguishable.

But many other people absolutely adore his playing, so WTF do I know?

[greveost]

Sorry I don't doubt he is a good player but this video is wishy washy at best with some questionable information.
Note he is not saying don't turn down the treble. He is saying turn it down on your amp, not on your guitar. Because tone knobs on the guitar aren't like treble or bass controls, but they are tone knobs. What????
First of all, treble and bass on the amp are also tone knobs. Most amps have passive pots that cut these frequencies just like the ones in your guitars. So the tone knob on the guitar vs treble knob on the amp aren't different category things. Even when he is saying it, it doesn't seem like he has a clear idea what they really mean.
As to why he favors amp vs guitar tone knobs. It seems like he is implying that cutting down treble on the guitar will cut the magic guitar juices coming from the pickups, while cutting down treble on the amp still preserves them. He gives no reasoning for this unusual point.
Then he goes on to demonstrate his point by rolling the treble ALL the way off and says, look that doesn't sound that good. That's a bit of a strawman argument. If he rolled the treble all the way down in his amp, that wouldn't have been ideal either. That's an extreme setting that would have limited applications.
I get that his point is to say that keep the clarity of your guitar, don't go for that muddy tone some players seem to automatically do. But the whole point of controlling the treble on the amp, not on the guitar is a sag-way. He implies that he also cuts the treble on the amp to get his sound (as opposed to guitar), yet he never shows his amp settings.

It's quite common to belive that it is better to dial the tone knob on the amp, rather than the guitar.

[fep]

I find that the tone controls on guitars work very nicely up until about mid way point. After that they start getting too muffled. Cutting volume also reduces trebles. So volume and tone both around 6-8, tames trebles quite well on the fly.

That is also what I do, right around 7.

To me the logic of always all the way up is a bit flawed. Wouldn't that also mean that they would prefer hotter pickups that emaphasize the treble more so as to give them some variation beyond all the way up? My thought when rolling off some volume and treble is, "these pickups are a little too hot for my taster right now".

[Kathmandu Cat]

I like the jazz tones from my Gretsch 5120 with TV Jones and flatwounds and tone rolled off quite a bit. Unlike others I prefer the middle pickup position the most.

[DRS]

The problem with all declarations is they mean quite a bit to the person making the declaration but not so much to others.
I agree with Betz to a degree only because his tone taste aligns with mine. I can also agree with the science that 50 ft out, a rolled back tone will not sound the same as right next to the amp. But declaring it a "mistake" is presumptuous. If that's your sound and you're OK with the overall sound in the room, go for it. I have been to so many shows where the treble take my head off. Maybe it sounds great in the Men's room.

[sgosnell]

I did not mean to say that any setting is a mistake, only that the sound is different at different distances, so the sound heard very close to the amp is not the same sound heard several yards away. It's up to each player to decide on the preferred tone, and where that preferred tone will be heard. But one should know the difference, because knowledge is power.

[Spook410]

Starts with knowing what you want and what you need. I like a very acoustic sound. However I may need to adjust tone and playing to avoid the KB and bass player ranges. Also, you may need to cut through and a strong midrange can help even if it lacks the beautiful ring an acoustic instrument is capable of. And.. the right answer for EQ is not the guitar or amp. Guitar is just roll off and it's a rare amp that has anything but a basic EQ circuit centered on the frequencies you may or may not actually need. What you want is proper EQ pedal. Empress ParaEQ is a good example.

[Jonathan0996]

I recently swapped out the humbucker in my laminate jazzbox with a Lollar HB-sized CC pickup - still early days but so far it seems that rolling off the volume a bit with the CC pickup is a good thing. I note Tim Lerch has recommended this in some of his videos featuring CC pickups.

Despite what the rock guys may say, it ain't a sin to roll off some high end. You do what works, then listen.

[Chazmo]

I can get a good jazz tone with guitar volume and treble knobs full on and adjusting the amp EQ, but I can get a great jazz tone by adjusting the guitar knobs.

I have tried different approaches over the years, but lately, I start with both guitar knobs full on and amp adjusted. I then turn the guitar treble down until it sounds dead, then back up again to the livelier range. That way, I feel like I'm in the sweet spot. The treble knob usually winds up somewhere just below full on.

Why not fine adjust with the guitar treble knob? That's what its there for.

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

Metheny, Hall, Bickert... they all roll the tone down on the guitar.

That is a true statement, all three have typical dark tones.

A quite interesting thing is that if you listen to Metheny’s early ECM albums he had a completely different tone than today. From ”Bright Size Life” to ”80/81” the tone is much brighter than today. The first step towards his contemporary sound you’ll hear on ”Offramp” and after that the tone knob seems to be rolled down

[christianm77]

I think Pat said the tone control didn't do very much on his old ES175.

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

I think Pat said the tone control didn't do very much on his old ES175.

Maybe that’s the case.

I read that the first Primetime delays from Lexicon had some sort of modification that made his chorus sound much brighter. ”American Garage” is the best example of this, according to Metheny. I also read that Lexicon later changed the design in their rack delays which resulted in darker modulation on the repeats than before.

[Jimmy Mack]

Y'know, folks can talk all they want about how to do this or how to do that, roll off the guitar volume or tone, flatten your pick, or rotate it, turn your amp upside down, or backwards, it's a "gear" forum. I would think that when you sit down to play, or practice, you find the modes that work for YOU, and like Spook 410 said, "you find what you want and need". Isn't that what we do?

I just plugged my L5CES into my Fender Concert to play a bit at home, didn't change anything, and it sounded awesome (to me). The last guitar I played thru that amp (Epiphone Casino with P90's) sounded great at that setting too. When I play through either of my Princeton Reverbs (they are quite different from each other), the treble always seems to work best around 6, like the Concert! Bass is usually low at around 2. Turning down the tone on the guitar (any of them) usually results in a loss of dynamics from the pickups. Turning down the volume keeps dynamics up, but mellows the tone of the instrument, and allows some "woodiness" to come through.

So, if I play my Tele, or Strat, I will add bass and middle at the amp, to fatten up the sound, but Treble is stuck at 6 again! So, I guess it boils down to picking fingers, the picks I use, and the PRESENCE I expect from my electric guitars, arch top, hollow, Thin, or solid.

There's a term I haven't heard expressed in this or any other thread on tone. PRESENCE. I like a certain amount of PRESENCE when I play, or when listening to other players. I know a guy, quite a famous player, who plays with TOP quality guitars and a vintage AC30, and yet, no PRESENCE! His amp is miked, the band is clear and dynamic, but he is buried in the mix, when he should be featured! I've stood right in front of the stage, and his amp, and yet, no presence.

So, I go for presence, and having the Treble on 6 gives me that from my amps. Guitars - I keep them pretty full up, although full volume on the guitar can be more harsh than when backed off a bit. Sure, you can achieve other useable tones and textures, nice ones, but without presence, who's going to hear them?

I suspect that what others hear with PM's playing too, is the fall-off of presence. Pat Martino?

[JCat]

Read what he says in the comments section when someone mentions Metheny rolling down the tone on his guitar.

Person A:
I like pat Methenys sound. Pat Metheny Says: "To get my sound on the 175 I use flatwound strings and the tone control turned almost completely off."

Person B:
interesting....that’s probably why I only have two of his cds in my collection

****

I have many Metheny records, I really dig his warm, wolly tone. Who's Brian Betz? I think I heard him say "Tone is personal and there are many good tones". That's fair, but overall he's addressing noobs, unfortuntely with some factual errors. "Volume knobs on top, tone on the bottom" would be an uncustomary layout, different from most Gibson models.

His understanding of "hot", the way he uses the word, indicates he may not be fully aware of the guitar-to-amp interface that ultimately is gear dependent, including common tone issues like unwanted distortion.

A dual humbucker guitar has four controls that interacts in the mid-position in ways the beginner would not expect. By excluding the bridge pickup (we don't say "back pickup") he has limited the options, making it easier to understand what's going on, for the benefit of the beginner.

There's one solid advice I could echo; Amp settings depend on venue. A good starting point would be to dial in the amp for the neck pickup with neck tone control wide open.

[rpjazzguitar]

On my DV Little Jazz I turn the bass almost off, mids in the center and treble a little below center. That works for my GCS-1, but I still end up fiddling with the tone control on the guitar.

I don't like a lot of low frequency information in my comping. I think it tends to make the band muddy if you're not on top of it.

And, I don't like screech or sitar. Since I have a hard touch, I have to watch the treble.

Great jazz guitar tone? Well, I don't sound like Wes, but I get what I'm looking for.

[MiaHatesJazz]

Hi. I am new to jazz guitar and am trying to get a classic jazz tone like the following songs:

In Your Own Sweet Way - Wes Montgomery
I'm in the Mood for Love - Julie London

That buzzy crackly and sharp tone is what I'm looking for. At the very least a normal jazz tone.

I just got an Eastman AR371CE, and I already had a Line-6 Spyder IV 15W from playing rock on solid body electric... Do I need to buy a new jazz amp? If not what do I need to do exactly to get this tone? For every tone nob(drive, bass, mid, treble,channel, reverb, master, guitar volume and tone nobs, etc) A lot of forums or tutorials are very vague/general or are too specific to a certain amp/guitar setup... I need someone to hold my hand haha. Thanks!

[teeps]

After listening a bit to the Wes tune on Youtube I find the tone somewhat sharper than normally associated with "jazz tone". I dont know your guitar, but try the bridge pickup with treble dampened a bit on the amplifier and on the guitar, preferably on the overdrive channel but with very subtle amount of dirt as this will also focus the mids. Heavy flatwound strings and heavy pick with a relative soft touch might help.