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I just had a guitar plek'd. Roasted maple neck by USACG. The guy who did it said that the neck was extraordinarily straight and the most material the machine took off was .003 (about the width of a sheet of notebook paper).
And yet, the guitar doesn't play anywhere nearly as well as 2 other guitars which were leveled by a local old-world craftsman.
So, my conclusion is that a great luthier beats a machine, hand's down...
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04-19-2019 05:59 AM
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Sorry to hear that your investment didn't pay off. Are you sure that it has nothing to do with the neck profile which may just be not as perfect for you as the profile on the other two guitars?
Not saying your plek guy did it wrong but as far as I have heared, handling a plek machine seems to be quite complicated. It's more than just pushing a few buttons, it's not fail-safe so to say.
That said, I 'd trust a good luthier to get the same good results as a perfectly handled machine. I'd be interested in what your luthier has to say about the plek job after inspecting the guitar. It could just be half a millimeter more depth for the nut slots and suddenly all is well.
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yeah I'm sure. It's the buzzing that's the differentiation.
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I know four very talented fret filers: Ren Wall, Pete Moreno, Chuck Thornton and Aaron Cowles. I've known far more who are not talented.
The advantage of having a very skilled and motivated human is that this person take care of the bridge slots, nut slots and action. In other words the entire guitar is set up.
That said, I've been pretty happy with the few Plek jobs I've had, primarily factory performed.
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I've spoken with Graham of Wolfe Guitars on this topic several times. He holds the view that when properly applied by trained technicians/luthiers, the Plek will do the job with greater precision than its human counterparts.
He added that certain guitars are good candidates for Plek treatments while others are not. I hesitate to add anything further since I'm not an expert.
As for my experience, I have guitars that have been leveled and set up by talented luthiers like Graham and others that have undergone Plek jobs, and am happy to report that all are great guitars that sound great and are a pleasure to play.
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They're different guitars though...
Anyway -
I agree that the PLEK tech (hey that rhymes) should be skilled in full set up.
I've had good experience with good/great guitars being PLEK'd.
That said, there's no substitute for a good neck to begin with...
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The original neck on this guitar which was leveled the old fashioned way plays better, lower and with less buzzing. Not sure how it makes any difference that they're different guitars. Unless the neck is inherently unstable - and the plek'er said the neck was great - it shouldn't make a difference in terms of action and buzzing assuming similar scale, strings, etc...
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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I never understood the "excitement" about pleking other than a marketing ploy. Similar statements to "a poly finish will suck the tone" from your guitar.
Currently I have the benefit of a 74 year old old school luthier. But alas the machine will out live him and I both.
(I believe the technology was developed in Germany. )
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It's a real shame someone as discerning as you had this happen. I don't put much cotton in a plek machine unless it's someone really amazing operating it. I, like many others, believe in a set of talented hands and eyes working on not just the frets but the ENTIRE guitar as a whole.
Big
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We need more 74 yr old, old school luthiers hanging around. Originally Posted by Wildcat
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Some on the forum have gave me a hard time but I think I can a dress frets was well as any plek and probably better. I am a thinking human being with creativity and much experience. I want to know how a player plays the guitar first and then go from that point on a fret dressing. There are also more than one way to do fret dressings and repairmen have different methods of completing the task. Rarely have I found anyone who does it the same exact way.
My real grip with the plek is the cost. My understanding is they are over $200 in places. I charge between $90 and upt $125 for a full fret dressing and set up. This does not include an new nut but complete fret dressing whatever is needed, set up of the action at all points on the neck, intonation set based on the gauge of strings you use. I would charge a premium extra for stainless steel frets of $25 although I have only done a few fret dressings for stainless steel frets.
THe one thing that I cannot do on guitars and neck set up it, is miracles. I cannot make make necks straight and untwisted without a lot of work and some are in such bad shape they are not ever going to be great. In those cases you don't have a fret dressing problem you have a neck structural issue and that is a different animal.
If the fingerboard is tailing way up on the extension about the 14th fret that requires some planing and goes beyond a fret dressing. If the fingerboard drops off depending on the situation that can be remedied but requires a bit more thought.
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Sorry to hear this, but there is way too much praised digital junk in the world by now!
Yes, the plek technology was developed in Germany by certain geniuses, and - going through their website (Home - Plek) - I wonder why customers are so gullible and trusting to influencers.
I'd not even put a $100 guitar into such a machine.
>> I never understood the "excitement" about pleking other than a marketing ploy. <<
+1
>> Similar statements to "a poly finish will suck the tone" from your guitar. <<
>> We need more 74 yr old, old school luthiers hanging around. <<
Agreed, though a bad poly finish will definitely suck tone, and a bad 74 yr old, old school luthier will suck the same like a poor plek machine job.
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A machine like a Plek is supposed to enable trained technicians with months of training to replace craftsmen with years and decades of training and experience.
Same concept applies to all CNC machines - which is what a Plek is.
The operative word is trained.
I have had 2 guitars Pleked and the results were good.
I also have a luthier who works on guitars for people like Randy Bachman. She is also good.
But she can have up to 3-4 weeks of back log.
My Pleked guitars were done in 1 week.
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The only plek'd guitar I've gotten recently is a flat top. A Martin D18 a few months ago. Measuring with a rocker, it has the best fret leveling I've seen. Always felt plek'ing was overkill and it may be. But the results on this Martin are certainly impressive.
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This Plek demo is excellent if you skip through just a little annoying chatter.
The operator makes it clear that the Plek is just a tool that helps a skilled luthier do the job a little better and more quickly. Human judgement is very much a part of the process.
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Yeah - I'm one of those and was doing it back before Stew Mac and all the fancy tools and machinery. Don't do it any more except on my own stuff but I would trust me over a machine any day. Not bragging, just sayin'...... Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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A Plek is simply a tool that is only as good as the person operating it. If someone want's to plek their guitar I recommend:
Phil Jacoby
Philtone Guitar Company - Guitar Repair and Lutherie in Baltimore, MarylandLast edited by iim7V7IM7; 04-19-2019 at 03:40 PM.
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the luthier has offered to take it back and make it right but I'm a bit hesitant. What's he going to do? Put it back on the machine? He already sent the report and the statistics and on paper it should be the best neck and fret job ever. Looks so perfect. Another thing that causes me to lose confidence is that the G B and E strings don't have enough of an angle going over the nut so they are "ghosting" (not sure what the proper term is). There is only a string tree for the top two strings and it's not low enough.
After looking at it closer, it seems that one of the issues with the string angle is that he put the string tree too far up the headstock. Fender puts it around the A string but this has it up around the D string...
<Sigh...>
For $250, it's just disappointing that he wouldn't have fixed that...
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$250 wow that is a lot of cash for a fret dressing.
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unfortunately, there is literally nobody within 120 miles who can do it. The last repairman I took my guitar to couldn't hear the buzzing in it. When I drove back to the shop and demonstrated it, he responded by asking if anyone really plays like that and questioned whether you would hear the buzzing through the distortion. He had apparently never heard anyone play clean jazz lines. Then he told me, he was not skilled enough to do a fret level. At least he was honest... Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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Originally Posted by Wildcat
The HUGE benefit for a system like the PLEK comes when there is a major difference in the neck shape when it is under string and truss rod tension vs. when it is un-strung and available for the PLEK or luthier to level and dress the frets.
This is rarely the case. But it does happen.
In general, leveling and dressing frets is really not hard to do.
But seeing a problem (like an S-curve, or a slight twist that gives too much relief on one side and too little on the other) under string tension, then noting that the problem looks VERY different with no tension, is a real pain. A manual luthier needs to remember the strung condition and make adjustments during what is no longer a simple task.
It is do-able and is done all the time. But really, nobody can match the precision of the PLEK under this one unusual set of circumstances.
So under the unusual condition described above, I can not imagine doing as well as a PLEK in measuring a problem under string tension, then fixing it when the neck has unusually changed profile under no tension.
But for:
- one player,
- one guitar,
- a very specific set of preferences,
- someone who knows what they are doing wth a guitar that, like most, has no bizarre differences in neck profile under load vs. no-load,
then the experienced luthier (even if not 74) can do a great job with remarkable precision.
In my opinion.
Sorry for the OP troubles.
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Oh and, surely the PLEK can offer a speed and consistency benefit in a production environment. So I can readily imagine the benefit of such a system in a high volume production environment.
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Thanks PT, as usual your summaries are chock full of knowledge, experience, and wisdom.
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In my limited experience. . .
roasted maple does not always adhere to the laws of physics governing most other woods, in that it is extraordinarily stiff and often unyielding to string tension forced relief. I've used it in a number of builds and had a bear of a time getting a clean set-up with one particular short-scale conversion, I tried putting 12s on that sucker and with the truss rod totally slack it was still straight as a ruler when tuned up.
I always wondered how they set-up the old aluminum neck Travis Beans.
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Sorry if this is a 'missing the point' question but - - is it possible then that even after a correctly done plek procedure a guitar can still experience playability issues and inevitably need a reset ?
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hey Jack,
Sorry for your results, and thanks for the feedback.
But I am just summarizing what others have very well said already.
- PLEK does not remove the need for skill and listening to what the player wants - and how that translates into the details of a setup. Sure the PLEK removes the need for hands-on feel for the frets, but you still need to understand all the thrills and spills of a setup, and the best-fit combination of the variables for an individual player.
- It is a superb system for production environments and for the fairly unusual situation of a neck that sits far differently under string and truss forces than when un-stressed.
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In my opinion, the “problem” is that a very well set up guitar is such a HUGE step up from a pretty well set up guitar.
Once you experience that...
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