Second Mediocre Result From a Plek-Job

[Greentone]

On my two best archtops, one was made and set up by Aaron Cowles. The other one was Plek'd. I find both instruments to be simply amazing to play.

(I confess that the Cowles instrument may be just about the best, most comfortable and even--up and down the neck--guitar that I have ever owned or played. Big Mike knows what I am talking about.)

This is a very small sample size, but based upon two well set up instruments I'd say that a good guitar tech can make the Plek machine do about what he/she can do with very careful hands.

Of course, the instrument has to be up to snuff--good neck, good truss rod, good nut, bridge, etc.

Sorry, Jack, that you've experienced the set up problems that you have.

[rio]

I don’t doubt that a great human could beat a plek unless there is an equally great human in control of that plek. It still comes down to needing a person who is very good at what they do.

Out of curiosity, can a plek do things like drop off at the end of the fretboard or is it restricted to purely making things level? I’ve always been curious how a plek job would be but have stuck with actual people before learning myself and just keeping it all me working on my guitars. One thing I have started to do is drop off the frets very slightly at the end of the fretboard because I like a completely level neck with no relief. So I’m curious if a plek has the flexibility to customize what it is doing like that. (And I should add that I know adding a drop off is somewhat controversial with some thinking there is no need and that it worsens playability, I’m more curious about what the machine can do though).


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[rio]

unfortunately, there is literally nobody within 120 miles who can do it. The last repairman I took my guitar to couldn't hear the buzzing in it. When I drove back to the shop and demonstrated it, he responded by asking if anyone really plays like that and questioned whether you would hear the buzzing through the distortion. He had apparently never heard anyone play clean jazz lines. Then he told me, he was not skilled enough to do a fret level. At least he was honest...

That is one reason I started doing it myself. I *hate* when a tech tells you that what you want is wrong. I’ve been told “an archtop shouldn’t have action that low” more than once and it’s not even that low compared to people who like extremely low action since I like it around 1.2-1.3mm at the 12th fret of the E string, and it’s not like I’m asking that with light strings either. I would prefer the honesty of saying “I only know how to do it one way and can’t do what you’re asking me to” rather than wasting both time and money.

Edit: sorry for the double post - I thought I was editing my previous message.


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[Longways to Go]

Perhaps learning a bit of DIY is an approach? One might learn how to tweak an imperfect plec job?

I'm sure it's a lot of work, but the OP is obviously deeply involved with guitars so it might be a skillset worth taking on.
After all, aren't there a couple of hacks ready to do "fretwork" in every town in America? It must be a skill that can be learned with some patience and some tools from Stew-Mac. At least if you are doing it for yourself, you know exactly what you want. I feel sorry for professional luthiers always trying to guess what each guitarist thinks of as a perfect set up.

If you can't get the results you want, time to take matters into your own hands!

[rpjazzguitar]

I've had one guitar set up by Gary Brawer. Nylon Godin Multiac. Had a little bit of a buzz, which, in hindsight, was probably a new string settling in or something. They suggested a Plek. Afterward the guitar was, as far as I could tell, exactly the same.

[starjasmine]

This is a really interesting thread. Wondering whether the plek can save off its data to a file for another plek machine to load. It seems like basic functionality but thought I'd ask rather than assume.

That feature could be really useful in a few circumstances:
- you want to see the scan result but let a human luthier do the work
- you want to quantify any changes that might have occurred in shipping, or as the result of the guitar being in a different climate (e.g. shipping a guitar pleked in Roswell GA to the Midwest in Winter)
- you want to see how the neck acts as the guitar ages

I liked the characterization that the plek is the steadiest set of hands and best pair of eyes... but still requires the operator to know what they're doing.

SJ

[Dennis D]

- or maybe this question: Is there a situation where the Plek machine can and will do what it does and very well, but won't fix the problem, and the guitar still needs something else ?

[rmpmcdermott]

Like others have said, Plek machines require incredibly skilled operators and involve more human interaction and judgement than you'd think. This isn't some "pop it in the machine and wait for the ding" situation.

Of my three main S-style guitars, one was plek'd and the other two were set up by very experienced luthiers (and I mean luthiers, not techs). They all play differently, but they all play wonderfully.

I don't think a plek machine will ever replace a great luthier or a great tech, but I do think it's nice to have more options rather than fewer.

Just my opinion, though, and subject to scrutiny like everyone else's.

[Max405]

Hi Jack, how are you buddy.
if you are thinking of sending the neck to someone in the NYC area for a world class fret job, try Ian Davlin at Lark Street Music.
He did my Gibson Johnny Smith. Absolutely world class. And not ridiculously expensive.
Good Luck.
Joe D

like I said, twice bitten. I won't do it again. Next time I'll spend the money and send to a great luthier in NYC instead for a fret level.

[jzucker]

Thanks, I should have just done that from the beginning. At this point, I'm probably going to put the original neck back on it and live with it's issues. Get what I can for the USACG...

[jzucker]

I don't know the answers to a lot of the questions. One hint in all this is the fact that the guy didn't get rid of the pinging from the incorrect placement and level of the string-tree. To me that says he either doesn't have the ear to get things right or doesn't care or a combination of both. So he's relying totally on the science of the plek setup because I played one note on the guitar and heard the pinging from the improper string angle over the nut. I wondered how could he not have heard that but then it's like the repair guy who had never heard clean guitar playing and wondering whether the buzzing on that would be heard over the amp's distortion. This was told to me by 2 different techs over the last couple years. One of them was the reknowned lay's guitar repair....

[Litterick]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe these machines were introduced to solve a problem. We did not see a collapse in the standards of luthiers that required a technological intervention. Rather, luthiers were doing what they always have done, and continuing to do it well, and continuing to charge what they worth.

The manufacturers created this gizmo to undercut the cost of the luthiers and replace them. It is not a technological solution to a known problem, but a commercial opportunity to replace skilled people with machines that will do the job at much less cost. It is designed to reduce cost and so increase profit. Unsurprisingly, it does not do the job as well as the people it replaces, because that is not its purpose. Besides, machines are not that smart: they work only with factors they can measure; they have no intuition or experience.

I think we should support our local luthiers, who do so much for us and who maintain the craftsmanship on which we depend. We would not buy guitars made by machines, so why would have them fixed by machines?

[jzucker]

I'm with you but I'm about at the end of the rope of local guys. The older guys are retiring around here and there aren't enough serious guitarists to warrant younger guys getting into the business. The guy who plek'd my guitar is about 2 hours from me and is retiring so even the plek guys are getting out!

[rmpmcdermott]

We would not buy guitars made by machines, so why would have them fixed by machines?

Aren't most modern guitars (with the exception of handmade archtops), especially those from major manufacturers (even "custom shop" made guitars), stamped out on CNC machines, though?

Just playing devil's advocate here.

[Jim Soloway]

like I said, twice bitten. I won't do it again. Next time I'll spend the money and send to a great luthier in NYC instead for a fret level.

Or you could save a lot of money and send it to any number of really talented techs who are not in New York.

[jzucker]

Just put the original neck back on it and it sounds and plays 10x better.

I'll live with the issues it has. The original problem was that whoever put the frets in the guitar (it was refretted) beveled the fret ends too much and the high E slips off the fingerboard. So I discussed getting it refretted but let the guy talk me into buying the USACG instead since it was about the same price as a refret.

[Litterick]

You are probably right. I am probably hopelessly optimistic. I saw some Strat and Les Paul copies for sale at $150 each on Facebook Marketplace this morning. The photographs showed as little as possible. The necks appeared to be made from MDF.

[Litterick]

I'm with you but I'm about at the end of the rope of local guys. The older guys are retiring around here and there aren't enough serious guitarists to warrant younger guys getting into the business. The guy who plek'd my guitar is about 2 hours from me and is retiring so even the plek guys are getting out!

I had not realised things were so bad. The lutherie business seems to be doing well in these parts.

[jzucker]

Or you could save a lot of money and send it to any number of really talented techs who are not in New York.

Like who?

[rictroll]

Pete Moreno?

[Matt Cushman]

Just put the original neck back on it and it sounds and plays 10x better.

I'll live with the issues it has. The original problem was that whoever put the frets in the guitar (it was refretted) beveled the fret ends too much and the high E slips off the fingerboard. So I discussed getting it refretted but let the guy talk me into buying the USACG instead since it was about the same price as a refret.

I know what you are saying Jack. The fret ends are a very important aspect for the comfort of the player. That is why I highly recommend hemispherical fret ends on fretted instruments. They are oh so comfy and maximize the amount of clean playing surface on the fret top. It will cost a bit more but it is well worth the extra expense if you can find someone to do it.

[jzucker]

back when I had a great luthier, he told me that the obsession with over-tapered fret ends was from hobbiests and people who use the "rock grip" where their hands are touching both sides of the fretboard all the time but that if you use a "better" grip, the over-tapered fret ends aren't necessary. USACG's fret end taper is good, warmoth's is not (IMO). Several warmoth necks I've owned including one that's on a strat I currently have are way over-tapered. On one of them, I'm considering getting a more narrow bridge and having the nut cut slightly "in" on the high E to cure the issue...

[whiskey02]

Yeah the fret ends can make or break a neck/guitar, and yet so many Gibson owners are loath to give up (or purchase used) their Nibs for fear that their 1985 Les Paul won’t be worth six figures one fine day.

[6stringjazz]

The HUGE benefit for a system like the PLEK comes when there is a major difference in the neck shape when it is under string and truss rod tension vs. when it is un-strung and available for the PLEK or luthier to level and dress the frets.

This is rarely the case. But it does happen.

In general, leveling and dressing frets is really not hard to do.

But seeing a problem (like an S-curve, or a slight twist that gives too much relief on one side and too little on the other) under string tension, then noting that the problem looks VERY different with no tension, is a real pain. A manual luthier needs to remember the strung condition and make adjustments during what is no longer a simple task.

It is do-able and is done all the time. But really, nobody can match the precision of the PLEK under this one unusual set of circumstances.

So under the unusual condition described above, I can not imagine doing as well as a PLEK in measuring a problem under string tension, then fixing it when the neck has unusually changed profile under no tension.

But for:

- one player,
- one guitar,
- a very specific set of preferences,
- someone who knows what they are doing wth a guitar that, like most, has no bizarre differences in neck profile under load vs. no-load,

then the experienced luthier (even if not 74) can do a great job with remarkable precision.

In my opinion.

Sorry for the OP troubles.

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Oh and, surely the PLEK can offer a speed and consistency benefit in a production environment. So I can readily imagine the benefit of such a system in a high volume production environment.

If the Luther uses the Dan Earlywine neck jig 99% of neck problems can be identified and corrected since it simulates the string tension when the strings are not on. Once again skill and knowledge are needed but that process can match or exceed a plek job

[GNAPPI]

I'm with you but I'm about at the end of the rope of local guys. The older guys are retiring around here and there aren't enough serious guitarists to warrant younger guys getting into the business. The guy who plek'd my guitar is about 2 hours from me and is retiring so even the plek guys are getting out!

+1, It's like some of these techs were flipping burgers a few months ago and had a night gig then decided in a stupor "I'm going to be a luthier"

I had a guy go to re-fret a tele neck and while pulling the frets yanked wood shards from the fingerboard. He didn't know how to fix it and I STILL have it sitting without frets!

Calling a competent luthier!!! Can anyone recommend someone who can do remedial work? :-) Jeez!