Floating Pickup Tone

[helios]

I've long considered archtops with floating pickups to be too bright & boomy for my tastes (at least that was the case with a Heritage Golden Eagle I was able to spend some time with), but this gentleman (Alessio Menconi) seems to consistently coax great tone from his Johnny Smith:

[Greentone]

Yes. Both Gibson and Heritage Johnny Smiths sound great. (I should mention that the Guild JS model sounds awfully good, too.) I think that you will also find that an acoustic archtop matched with the right pickup will not be either boomy or bright.

I have a Unity (made by Aaron Cowles, who carved many of the top of the line archtops for Gibson) that is mated with a Shadow AZ-48 "Zoller" pickup (designed and built for Attila Zoller for his 48th birthday). This guitar does not sound either boomy or bright, to me.

[sgosnell]

The best-sounding floating pickup I've found is the DeArmond Rhythm Chief. I haven't tried an original, but the reissues are great. Not bright, not boomy, great sound.

[omphalopsychos]

I have an RC1100, RC1000, and FHC. All vintage original. Each one sounds rich, full, thick, while maintaining the clarity, dynamic range, and definition that only a single coil offers. The vintage are substantially different sounding from the reissues in my experience, but the reissue is also quite good.

[MarkRhodes]

I've long considered archtops with floating pickups to be too bright & boomy for my tastes (at least that was the case with a Heritage Golden Eagle I was able to spend some time with), but this gentleman (Alessio Menconi) seems to consistently coax great tone from his Johnny Smith:

That was lovely. Thank you for posting it.

[Cunamara]

This guy does all right, too:

Greentone's point about matching the guitar and the pickup rings true for me. I went through four pickups on my carvetop before finding one that complements the guitar. The mini humbucker was too thin and bright, the Kent Armstrong was too stringy and bright, a modified neck-mounted Classic 57 was just too boomy. Yet the same types of pickups sound great on other guitars. A Pete Biltoft neck-mounted CC style pickup has been just right on mine, even though my tonal goal is closer to P90 era Jim Hall with Art Farmer or Sonny Rollins than Charlie Christian.

But you've also got to match the amp, too- I just took delivery of a Polytone Baby Taurus today and wow! My other amps on hand are a Clarus/Re 12" and a 5E3, both of which sound very good but neither flatter the guitar and pickup anywhere near to the PT. And for whatever reason there's a fraction of the hum I get with the other two amps.

[zcostilla]

Greentone's point about matching the guitar and the pickup rings true for me. I went through four pickups on my carvetop before finding one that complements the guitar. The mini humbucker was too thin and bright, the Kent Armstrong was too stringy and bright, a modified neck-mounted Classic 57 was just too boomy. Yet the same types of pickups sound great on other guitars. A Pete Biltoft neck-mounted CC style pickup has been just right on mine, even though my tonal goal is closer to P90 era Jim Hall with Art Farmer or Sonny Rollins than Charlie Christian.

But you've also got to match the amp, too- I just took delivery of a Polytone Baby Taurus today and wow! My other amps on hand are a Clarus/Re 12" and a 5E3, both of which sound very good but neither flatter the guitar and pickup anywhere near to the PT. And for whatever reason there's a fraction of the hum I get with the other two amps.

This is a very encouraging post to me. I just ordered a Vintage Vibes CC floater (AlNiCo II for less initial attack) and in my conversations with Pete Biltoft I asked for something that was akin to the old DeArmond Rhythm Chief in tone to put it in my Godin 5th Avenue acoustic (non-cutaway). Pete was suggesting to choose my pots based on the tone I wanted: 250k pots with 0.22 microfarad cap for brighter tone and 500k pots with 0.46 microfarad for darker tone. I guess this blade pickup will be more versatile then a more traditional single coil or a HB in that it will work with either setup. Curious which setup you went with for yours, since I won’t have free cash to order my pots and jack until I get paid next week.

[Hammertone]

These are swell - Kent Armstrong floating P-90/Dearmond (switchable between the two):

[sgosnell]

500k pots will give you a brighter tone, 250k not as bright. Single-coil pickups usually come with 250k pots to help tame the brightness, humbuckers with 500k pots to brighten the tone a little. I tried 500k pots on my Wu with the Rnythm Chief, and it was too bright, so I changed to 250k pots and it's much better. I'm using thumbwheels inside the body, in the treble F hole, because I didn't want to put holes in the top, nor use a finger rest. Works for me. The usual Schatten thumbwheels are 500k, so not useful for me.

[Cunamara]

This is a very encouraging post to me. I just ordered a Vintage Vibes CC floater (AlNiCo II for less initial attack) and in my conversations with Pete Biltoft I asked for something that was akin to the old DeArmond Rhythm Chief in tone to put it in my Godin 5th Avenue acoustic (non-cutaway). Pete was suggesting to choose my pots based on the tone I wanted: 250k pots with 0.22 microfarad cap for brighter tone and 500k pots with 0.46 microfarad for darker tone. I guess this blade pickup will be more versatile then a more traditional single coil or a HB in that it will work with either setup. Curious which setup you went with for yours, since I won’t have free cash to order my pots and jack until I get paid next week.

Great pickup choice, IMHO. My pickup from Pete is also Alnico II. I used 250k mini pots, due to space limitations under the pickguard, and a 47 cap since it's a single coil. That can get plenty bright. FWIW, the usual combinations are humbuckers with 500k pots and a 22 cap (Gibson standard) and single coils with 250k and a 47 (Fender Strat standard). I ordered the electronics through Guitar Parts Factory - Guitar Parts. IIRC they are Alpha pots, 250k audio taper. The cap is an Orange Drop that I had laying around; it's huge and contributes to the space problem. If I was doing it again I'd just get a small ceramic cap and call it good. The cap is inaudible in the tone circuit as all the signal sent to it goes to ground, so there is no tonal difference between a cheap ceramic cap and a high-buck vintage one of the same electrical value. The guitar came with shielded Mogami wire from the jack to the controls and I utilized that and used standard braided wire between the pickup and the pots.

My archtop, which was made by forum member Matt Cushman, has a very nice acoustic sound. I think that this pickup reproduces the acoustic signature better than any other pickup I have had on the instrument. It's a pretty transparent sound. If you listen to the Jim Hall recordings with Art Farmer ("Interaction") and Sonny Rollins ("The Bridge") with his Gibson ES–175 with the P90 pick up, his tone blends the acoustic and electric qualities of the instrument- singing rather than thunky such as one hears with Tal Farlow or Joe Pass. That's what I was shooting for. And with the new-to-me amp, holy smokes.

[zcostilla]

Great pickup choice, IMHO. My pickup from Pete is also Alnico II. I used 250k mini pots, due to space limitations under the pickguard, and a 47 cap since it's a single coil. That can get plenty bright. FWIW, the usual combinations are humbuckers with 500k pots and a 22 cap (Gibson standard) and single coils with 250k and a 47 (Fender Strat standard). I ordered the electronics through Guitar Parts Factory - Guitar Parts. IIRC they are Alpha pots, 250k audio taper. The cap is an Orange Drop that I had laying around; it's huge and contributes to the space problem. If I was doing it again I'd just get a small ceramic cap and call it good. The cap is inaudible in the tone circuit as all the signal sent to it goes to ground, so there is no tonal difference between a cheap ceramic cap and a high-buck vintage one of the same electrical value. The guitar came with shielded Mogami wire from the jack to the controls and I utilized that and used standard braided wire between the pickup and the pots.

My archtop, which was made by forum member Matt Cushman, has a very nice acoustic sound. I think that this pickup reproduces the acoustic signature better than any other pickup I have had on the instrument. It's a pretty transparent sound. If you listen to the Jim Hall recordings with Art Farmer ("Interaction") and Sonny Rollins ("The Bridge") with his Gibson ES–175 with the P90 pick up, his tone blends the acoustic and electric qualities of the instrument- singing rather than thunky such as one hears with Tal Farlow or Joe Pass. That's what I was shooting for. And with the new-to-me amp, holy smokes.

Again, very helpful, thank you! I was pretty tired and got my number mixed up last night due to faulty memory. I’m going to go with 250k thumbwheel pots I found on WD music. Since this was originally a pure acoustic instrument, I will need to do all the electrical wiring from scratch, but I am confident that I can do it.

[Lionelsax]

Yes, that's jazz guitar, real pleasure to listen to.
It's the first Aebersold I bought, Thelonious Monk number 56.
And the first electric guitar I tried.

[deacon Mark]

I have floating PU's on all my acoustics. They range from Dearmond 1000 to the 1100 with polepieces. I also have a rhythm chief that can be put on the guitar with the bracket. In addition I have a Kent Armstrong handmade PAF without the adjustable polepieces. I also have a Gibson Johnny Smith Pickup I sent to Kent Armstrong to rewind for me on my Hollenbeck. From experience I believe I am the "expert" in the whole floating pickup scheme. Being a self proclaimed expert is a very dangerous position because in effect you think you know everything ( I know nothing for sure.)

So this is my take. As much as the pickup can make a difference it can be lost or won in what strings you choose. It can be lost or won in the exact position the pickup is set on the guitar. With the best being at the harmonic that rings past the 20th fret. The adjustable screw on the 1100 is worth something but not as much as one would expect. I have even experimented with cheaper made overseas pickups that Kent Armstrong 's name is one. These can be fine and in the end we may be chasing things that really do not really make a difference.

So here is my take from my own experience. The pickup that sits right on the harmonic will be the best. Some guitars require to get the best electric sound you might consider flatwound strings instead of roundwound. IF you have a shorter scale guitar it will at times sound warmer in the pickup, that would be a 24.75 vs 25.5

Now to throw this all out the window on floating pickups. I recently did a fret level and set up on a a Gibson ES 300 with a P90. I got done and plugged this into an Amp and wow...……………..you could buy an original D'angelico, Stromberg, or L5 and plugged in you may not really do nearly as well...………….for a lot less money.

[zcostilla]

I have floating PU's on all my acoustics. They range from Dearmond 1000 to the 1100 with polepieces. I also have a rhythm chief that can be put on the guitar with the bracket. In addition I have a Kent Armstrong handmade PAF without the adjustable polepieces. I also have a Gibson Johnny Smith Pickup I sent to Kent Armstrong to rewind for me on my Hollenbeck. From experience I believe I am the "expert" in the whole floating pickup scheme. Being a self proclaimed expert is a very dangerous position because in effect you think you know everything ( I know nothing for sure.)

So this is my take. As much as the pickup can make a difference it can be lost or won in what strings you choose. It can be lost or won in the exact position the pickup is set on the guitar. With the best being at the harmonic that rings past the 20th fret. The adjustable screw on the 1100 is worth something but not as much as one would expect. I have even experimented with cheaper made overseas pickups that Kent Armstrong 's name is one. These can be fine and in the end we may be chasing things that really do not really make a difference.

So here is my take from my own experience. The pickup that sits right on the harmonic will be the best. Some guitars require to get the best electric sound you might consider flatwound strings instead of roundwound. IF you have a shorter scale guitar it will at times sound warmer in the pickup, that would be a 24.75 vs 25.5

Now to throw this all out the window on floating pickups. I recently did a fret level and set up on a a Gibson ES 300 with a P90. I got done and plugged this into an Amp and wow...……………..you could buy an original D'angelico, Stromberg, or L5 and plugged in you may not really do nearly as well...………….for a lot less money.

Great tips I’ll look into. The Godin is a short scale (24.7”)and I have the D’Angelico jazz strings to try first. I was already planning on prewiring the pickup to a jack and move it around to find the sweet spot, but I’ll start with the location of the natural harmonics and go from there. My pickup just came in the mail and I have to order the jack and pots/cap this week when I get my social security money in... oh the constraints of a fixed income.

[Greentone]

Deacon Mark,

A 330 can be a superb guitar.

[Frank67]

I really did not like the DeArmond RI. It had a very peculiar Sound that sounded nothing like the acoustic sound of the instrument and I thought it was not well balanced across the strings. I quite enjoy the Lollar JS pickup. The Haussel flat jazz is very low output but sounded the most true to the acoustic instrument sound of all floaters that I tried.

[zcostilla]

I really did not like the DeArmond RI. It had a very peculiar Sound that sounded nothing like the acoustic sound of the instrument and I thought it was not well balanced across the strings. I quite enjoy the Lollar JS pickup. The Haussel flat jazz is very low output but sounded the most true to the acoustic instrument sound of all floaters that I tried.

I respect your opinion. A couple questions on how you got there:

a) On which guitar was the pickup mounted?
b) Which strings did you use (flatwound/roundwound? wound G or plain?)
c) How close was the pickup to the strings?

For me the tone I hear most is somewhat acoustic with a ringing bell-like quality, and that’s exactly what I am after. But decided to go with the Vintage Vibes too get close with modern construction because of the desire for more consistency and also a pickguard mount (the sides of my 5th Avenue neck where it would attach aren’t parallel, but angle in towards the center and bevel slightly toward the soundboard)

[Frank67]

I respect your opinion. A couple questions on how you got there:

a) On which guitar was the pickup mounted?
b) Which strings did you use (flatwound/roundwound? wound G or plain?)
c) How close was the pickup to the strings?

For me the tone I hear most is somewhat acoustic with a ringing bell-like quality, and that’s exactly what I am after. But decided to go with the Vintage Vibes too get close with modern construction because of the desire for more consistency and also a pickguard mount (the sides of my 5th Avenue neck where it would attach aren’t parallel, but angle in towards the center and bevel slightly toward the soundboard)

thank you very much for the feedback! I did not mean to say that the DeArmond was a bad pickup, just not what I wanted. There was that bell like thing that you describe but it sounded very artificial to me. I can however, totally see that one could dig that and of course, we all have different taste and style and amplification etc.

The guitar was a quality luthier made acoustic archetype with carved top, 17‘‘, very loud acoustically with a very full tone. Next to that, I thought the DeArmond sound was thin and anemic. I tried absolutely all kinds of strings, flats, different roundwounds, Phosphor bronze, phosphor. I settle on Thomastik Bebop 13s or John Pearse pure Nickel that I both liked. The guitar now has a Hauessel flat jazz. I wish it had a bit higher output, but I am largely happy with the tone it puts out.

[floatingpickup]

Deacon Mark,

A 330 can be a superb guitar.

I think Mark was talking about an ES-300.
Keith

[floatingpickup]

A number of my guitars have floating pickups (original De’Armonds, Kent Armstrong’s and a Gibson Johnny Smith). I find that I must have a tone control added to get the warmth I look for. So many floating pickups are installed these days with just a volume control and I find that setup too bright. With a tone control added, however, I think floating pickups sound great both at home and on the gig.
Keith

[zcostilla]

thank you very much for the feedback! I did not mean to say that the DeArmond was a bad pickup, just not what I wanted. There was that bell like thing that you describe but it sounded very artificial to me. I can however, totally see that one could dig that and of course, we all have different taste and style and amplification etc.

The guitar was a quality luthier made acoustic archetype with carved top, 17‘‘, very loud acoustically with a very full tone. Next to that, I thought the DeArmond sound was thin and anemic. I tried absolutely all kinds of strings, flats, different roundwounds, Phosphor bronze, phosphor. I settle on Thomastik Bebop 13s or John Pearse pure Nickel that I both liked. The guitar now has a Hauessel flat jazz. I wish it had a bit higher output, but I am largely happy with the tone it puts out.

I would GUESS that the output level is designed to give as much headroom as possible to prevent breakup and keep your acoustic tone. But that is just a guess.

**EDITED TO ADD**
I was curious about those pickups and found their web page. The website doesn’t list any specs but I found this interesting tidbit from their catalog:

“Flat Jazz” pickups are supplied with special “High-Gain” Alnicos in a very flat design. Fix-moulded into ebony mountings, they are 100% shielded - standard PU spacing is 50 mm”

Makes me wonder if your pickup is mounted too far from your strings.

[Lionelsax]

they are 100% shielded - standard PU spacing is 50 mm”

Makes me wonder if your pickup is mounted too far from your strings.

50 mm ? it's 5 cm ? 5 cm far from the strings ?
I would have said 5 mm, maybe I didn't understand the sentence.

[zcostilla]

50 mm ? it's 5 cm ? 5 cm far from the strings ?
I would have said 5 mm, maybe I didn't understand the sentence.

I should have been clearer, my fault. 50mm is pole spacing E to e. Most manufacturers want pickups about 1/8” (or just over 3 mm) from the strings. I didn’t think how a jump from the manufacturer quote to string spacing from the pickup would be taken. I was focused on the fact the manufacturer called them “high gain” while you feel the output is too low.

[zcostilla]

Just finished my floating Charlie Christian pickup installation today. Here’s a link to that post, but please comment in that thread so we don’t hijack this one any more than I already have (sorry)

New to jazz and new guitar (VIDEO CLIP)

[Marty Grass]

The Zoller is an often overlooked gem.

Yes. Both Gibson and Heritage Johnny Smiths sound great. (I should mention that the Guild JS model sounds awfully good, too.) I think that you will also find that an acoustic archtop matched with the right pickup will not be either boomy or bright.

I have a Unity (made by Aaron Cowles, who carved many of the top of the line archtops for Gibson) that is mated with a Shadow AZ-48 "Zoller" pickup (designed and built for Attila Zoller for his 48th birthday). This guitar does not sound either boomy or bright, to me.