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A friend found this in a junk shop and he paid $20US for it I picked it up from him for $272US I haven't received it yet but from the photos it looks to be in reasonable condition.
I think it is a 459 Hofner and she needs some attention to get her back to good condition.Can anyone confirm year and model?
Can you advise on what is the best glue to use to reset the neck that will be durable and strong without affecting tone in any way. I'm sure there is a right glue and a wrong one and want to get this right.
The tailpiece has sprung slightly from the body and I had in mind to drill the screw hole out, put in a dowel and re-fit the screw taking care that the metal plate would cover the repair.
The neck needs re-finishing and I had in mind to stain it as close as possible to the original colour and spray it with nitrocellulose clear gloss lacquer which I believe was the finish of the day for the body.
She will also need new tuners and I had in mind a set of retrofit ones as close as possible to the original design rather that originals that, given the age of these, are likely to be badly worn.
Any thoughts anyone has on the above will be very welcome as I want to restore this to her former glory or as close as I can get to it.
Cheers
Glenn
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02-07-2019 03:33 AM
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I do all my repairs with ordinary white wood glue, but I’ve never done a neck-reset, so maybe others can advise.
Be careful with the tuner replacement, those old Germans often have 34 mm between the posts instead of the now standard 35 mm, important to know if you go for the 3-on-a-plate replacements.
Cool guitar!
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Thanks for the advice on the tuner spacing that would be a trap that I hadn't thought of for sure. I agree that she is a nice old piece and well worth the effort to get her up and running again. Am really looking forward to getting her sorted.
Cheers Glenn
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Nice old 459.
-Mid-1950s (wood-burned logo below the bridge is the tell). The date should be written on the underside of the top, most likely on the bass side.
-The back of the neck is black on these. Keep it black. The decor of the 459 specifically references very old European guitars w/flamed or birds-eye maple rims and backplates and black-painted necks, from Panormo, Lacote and others (see below).
-Original bridge, original tailpiece.
-Tuners were replaced. If you post a close-up picture of the back of the headstock and the front, I can advise on how to proceed with replacements.
-The neck is clearly loose. The joint is a simple tapered mortice, so wiggle a heated palette knife into the joint on the sides to break the old glue while wiggling the neck a bit and it will pop right off. If you lack these skills, give it to a tech instead of ruining it.
-neck reset is dead easy - use WATER-SOLUBLE white glue or carpenter's glue. Do not use anything else. If, after the reset, you cannot raise the bridge high enough for proper action, do not toss the bridge or modify it - there are exact replacements made by the company that made the bridge (Teller in Germany, still in business). The bridge is probably made of black-dyed pearwood.
-tailpiece reseating is easy. The loose screw is simply a result of age. Do NOT drill and install a big dowel. Instead, use a teeny dowel (the size of a fat toothpick). A fat toothpick will do best, so long as it's made of hard wood. Then simply reinstall using the original slothead screw.
-do not try to remove the strap button even if tempted to do so. Just leave it alone. It's probably original, made of wood and is VERY prone to break.
This is a VERY clean, very old 459. These are very rare models, definitely worth restoring as opposed to bodgering. Given its age, it probably has a carved spruce top as opposed to a laminated top - you can check once the neck is removed. The back and rims are laminated, as is the case for all Hofner archtops (except fof the Hofner Chancellor, of course). Congratulations to you and your eagle-eyed friend.Last edited by Hammertone; 02-07-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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Also, read this:
NVH(Vintage Hofner)D!
You are not the only 459 enthusiast in NZ.
Mine:
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Oooohhh you sure have some nice guitars there.
Really appreciate your comments and I am aware of the glue, we call it PVA glue and rest assured I will use this on the repair. I have done "toothpick" type repairs on other things. I build working flinlock rifles with fancy carved and silver wire inlaid stocks with lots of fancy engraving as a hobby so have reasonable hands on tool skills. I have a super thin pallete knife that will be ideal for easing the glue as you described.
Do you have any idea who best to contact for the replacement tuners??? Would be nice to keep as close to original as possible. I think the tailpiece might be a little corroded and also need re-finishing will have a better idea when I get my hands on her. I have the gear to gold plate it but that would not be in keeping with the period and piece so that leaves chrome or nickle plating. Is your one chrome or nickle plated ???? I am thinking of driving down to pick her up rather than risk a courier service. Will be a 12 hour return trip but worth it I think to ensure she doesn't get damaged in transit.
Have attached a photo of a cheap chinese SX quitar I got for $60.00 second hand as a bit of fun to see if I could get it to play well as I had heard good stories on these and was curious to see if this was true. Was a total train wreck, re finished the neck, straightened the neck , dressed and re-crowned the frets which were about a third worn, stripped the body and silver wire inlaid it just to be different, stained it , Sprayed it with grain filler then nitrocellulose clear lacquer. Fitted a new pickguard with lace gold pickups with single coil switch. Plays and sounds darned near as good as my $NZ3,000.00 Fender stratocaster. Just thought you might like to see something a bit different.
Thanks ever so much for your help. I hope I can get my old piece looking as good as yours. That is a nice guitar and no mistake.
Cheers
Glenn
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Like most German makers, Hofner used nickel-plating on tailpieces on (almost) all of its archtop guitars. The Golden/470 models were the exception to the rule. From the pix you posted, the tailpiece looks OK and probably needs nothing more than a good cleaning/polishing. These are excellent tailpieces from ABM that rarely break. This particular tailpiece is rare - ABM has not made it for over 50 years, I think. The typical style in vintage circles is to clean and polish, not to replate, and to maintain as much originality as possible, or at least the appearance of originality, in restoration.
You will need to undo the work done on the headstock - plugging the oversized holes for modern tuners, redrilling smaller holes to accommodate vintage style tuner bushings and tuner posts, and filling the various extra small screwholes. Several folks here can help with photos. It should be easy work for you (especially in light of your last post!).
Happy to direct you to replacement tuners. One source not too far away is Great Guitars, in Australia.
Hofner Guitars & Part Australia For Collectors | Great Guitars
In England:
Project Guitar Parts - For Hofner guitar parts, Hofner bass guitar
parts, Vintage replacement scratch plates, Eko, Watkins, Colorama
There are other sources, including the parts annex in my main bunker.
As well, because the 3-on-a-strip tuners tend to wear by losing one or more of their buttons, there are many of them sitting in repairmen's parts drawers. Smart repairmen never throw any of this crap away. Individual plastic tuner buttons, installed using heat, are easy enough to find these days.
New replacement tuners are being supplied to Hofner by Van Gent, Rubner, and others. These are available directly from the makers or from a couple of dealers. Getting parts from Hofner in Germany is next to impossible - it interferes with their drinking and napping schedule.
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Uderstand about the tailpiece so polishing it shall be.
I would like to retain the finish on the front of the headstock and was wondering if the antique ferrals would cover the plug I would need to put in and re-drill. I could end up with a ring of wood around the freeal which might look a bit odd. Thought maybe I could machine new ferrals to fit the existing hole in the headstock but sized for the antigue tuner post. Stainless steel polished to look like plating might not look out of place.What do you think?????
If you can bear to part with a set of tuners and if possible a pickguard with a bracket from your parts hoard I would be very grateful. If you let me know how much that will be and how to pay you, my wife will arrange it as she is good at that sort of thing.
Yes it pays to hang on to everything as you never know when you might need a part for a project.
Our delivery address is 58 Park Road, Titirangi, Auckland 0604, New Zealand
I appreciate your assistance with all of this . It is very kind of you. Many thanks.
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I have pickguards but not in the correct colour (black/white/black).
Happy to send you a tracing at 100%, and post a few pix of the underside so you can see how it mounts.
Making one should be child's play for you.
B/W/B pickguard material is very standard and easy to find.
Hardware: tuners, brackets and so forth - I'll send more info via private mail
Ferrules are easy - the vintage ferrules will definitely cover the dowelled holes. I've never had any show-through on the many old Hofners that I have fixed this way. Also, the pix you posted show minimal trauma to the holes on the front of the headstock.
You can send messages via private mail if you want - the link is on the second menu bar at the top of the page.
Too late! ...looks like fellow Kiwi, 459-owning member Jehu, will be over for beers any minute - he's less than an hour away from you. Better hide the silverware.
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A tracing of he pickguard and photos will be great thank you very much. Were these made of wood at any time I think I saw refferance to that somewhere in my trolling the net for information. If so we have a wood called maire that is dark to the point that it is almost black it is also very dense and hard.
Will drop you an email so you can keep in touch that way if you wish.
It is great to have a like minded person to chat with over projects.
Jehu Can swing by for a beer anytime. I am more than happy to chat guitars etc Might pay to wait till I get this baby in my hands then he can come get some slobber marks on it for me to polish off and I can have a good drool over his. hehehehehe.
Cheers
Glenn
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Hofner did not use wood for any of its archtop guitar pickguards until the introduction of the AZ (Attila Zoller) models in the 1980s.
Originally Posted by Glenn Jennings
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Hey Glenn!
Sorry for the late response, I was washing my hair.
Looks like you've got a beauty on your hands there (and for a great price!), and in much better cosmetic shape than mine was in, despite the obvious issues.
I'd definitely be down to swing by for a beer or two and compare 459s at some point... I'm over on Whangaparaoa, so a bit of a hike but not too unreasonable. Let me know if you need a hand with anything, though by the looks of things you're better equipped than I am. (I actually wouldn't mind taking a look at that neck joint once you've got it apart.) Hammertone has given you sage advice -- he is a well of knowledge, and an all-around good sort.
Anyway, drop me a private message when you've got her in your hands, and we'll figure something out.
Cheers,
Jay
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Hi Jay I'm a newbie to this site and only found how to get to hammertones private contact by happy accident. You can contact me on gjtimes2@outlook.com or phone 09 817 3438. Taken a day off work to drive down to pick up the baby tomorrow. Probably get home Sunday. If you were to swing by for a beer next weekend I think we should have the neck out and cleaned up for re - assembly. Want to give some thought as to the best way to hold it all in place nice and tightly. Will have a better idea once i get the neck off. I have a pretty good camera so we can get some high quality photos for your records. Used to do bird photography was good enough at it to sell a bit of it.
If you bring your beast along I could get some spacing measurements to check against mine to send to hammertone as he has offered to come up with some tuners for me to replace the out of character things on it at the moment. Just in case the spacing is different. You are dead right he is a great guy and has been an awesome mine of information and a great help. I guess this is the beauty of forums like this you get to connect with some truly awesome people.
Is your pick guard original? if not I have found some 3 ply black white black 2.5mm laminate that was the original style according to hammertone and I think there would be enough material to make 2 pickguards from it. Could use yours as a pattern. I was thinking of a piece of high density foam slipped under the pickguard to prevent the bending issue that seems to happen with these. Would not cause any harm to the finish on the archtop either. Is just a thought. Would be out of sight so wouldn't offend the eye at all.
Let me know your thoughts.
Cheers for now. Glenn
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Sounds great, Glenn. I have a wedding to go to next weekend but could possibly make it over on Sunday; I'll drop you an email or give you a call to sort it out.
Yes, my pickguard is original, but in rough shape... I've actually been meaning to make a new one for a while. It's tortoise rather than BWB; I suspect Hammertone's is as well, but he can confirm whether BWB is also stylistically appropriate.
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I'll check the 459 pickguard colour over the weekend when I visit bunker#2.
Can't do it now - I have to return some videos.
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I recommend Genesis for the drive over. Some of Phil''s best work.
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being from the states, it looks like you entered a random selection of characters there. Originally Posted by Jehu
not as bad as cusco, though; where almost every street appeared to be named by a cat walking on a keyboard.
ps- i like hofners
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Well I have her in my hands and very nice she is to . Has a few battle scars that dont show on the photos I got to see but that Is not a major issue. After 4 hrs hand polishing the scratches and dings out of the body without going through the finish The battle scars can still be seen but she looks like a 60 year old guitar that someone loved and looked after with a high gloss finish. . Think I might keep it that way rather than re-finish it so that it looks like new. Think it keeps a bit of character this way while still looking very nice. Finish is worn off in one spot where it would rest on the leg but I think I can trick that up to be ok with a touch of lacquer.
The neck came out no problem . In fact it was a real bad glue job as it is pretty obvious it wasn't holding hands in too many places. Neck has 54 in pencil on both the body and the neck. Do you think this might be the year of manufacture. ?????? Back of neck has dings and finish missing so will need a clean up and re-spray.
Neck condition: frets 100% as new, when putting a level over the frets there would be a Half a mm gap in the centre so there is a slight bow. Distance between 1st and 2nd tuner post centre 35mm 1st and 3rd tuner post 70mm. Hammertone what are your thoughtson the neck bow should I attempt to steam bend it back a bit or do you think is better left alone. Could always dress the frets and get it pretty close that way given there is plenty to play with. If you can find those tuners and ship em out on courier I will be a friend forever. let me know how much they are and how best to pay you for them.
Tailway has cleaned up fairly nicely
Bridge adjustment has been cleaned and is now fully adjustable . Had been frozen on one
side.
Have taken some photos of the neck joint for JEHU to ponder over. Sunday sounds good for a visit if you can swing it buddy. Hammertone confirmed ther black white black for the pickguard material so I think I will go ahead and get that in along with some tuner knobs.
The bad part of this was the 6 hour drive each way to pick it up the good part of that was 6 hours each way total dedication to Eric Clapton and JJ cale. Oh yeah baby!!!!
Cheers Glenn
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Hehehehehe Yeah I do see what you mean by that, try this one for size, this is where my family first settled in New Zealand a place in the back of beyond called Whangamomona. Try saying that quickly after a few beers. hehehehe.
Cheers
Glenn
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Yeah, well dig this: The r is pronounced as a d, and the Wh at the beginning is pronounced as a friggin' F! Originally Posted by feet
Glenn -- So far so good on next Sunday; I'll be in touch. We can use my pickguard as a template for a new one... with the black body and f-hole binding, I think BWB will look quite smart regardless of the vintage-correctness.
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Awesome Jay looking forward to it. cheers Glenn
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Any attempts to straighten the neck should be mindful of not destroying the perloid fretboard inlays and the black fretboard binding. Plastics do not respond well to heat - they shrink and warp and sometimes even burst into flame (those are the most fun!). I suppose you could always remove them and reinstall them after the straightening. Dry heat is better than steam because it won't expand the wood. There are some on-line resources about neck-straightening. If the bow is really minor, I'd just leave it, at least for now.
I'd be happy to help with tuning machines - I have a few boxes of old tuners somewhere in the bunker. I communicate regarding that sort of thing via email or private messaging, so I'll be in touch.
As mentioned, the date is written in the underside of the top - get a light and mirror in there and you'll find it.
Hofner was (and still is) picky about matching necks to bodies early in the production cycle, and the number written on the neck heel and endblock was not a date - just a numerical code. I've seen plenty with other codes and single digits. If the guitar turns out to be a '54 that's a nice coincidence.
Please post some pictures of everything - I'm sure some members here are curious about things like the Hofner neck joint.
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Howdy guys , OK have taken a few before and after photos of the clean up of the body of the 459. The photos after the clean up have an R in front of the number. The photos are taken in the worst light to show the defects at their worst. Change the angle slightly and many cant be seen as they seem to dissapear.
Method was a good wash to remove mould so I could see what was underneath.
Sand in real bad spots with a light rub of 800 grit wet and dry followed by 1000 grit wet and dry sandpaper, a polish with an automotive cream cutting compound and a final polish with a silver metal polish cloth. ( Has very fine abrasive compound for high gloss finish)
The end result is not unpleasant and makes I think the body look like an old but much loved guitar with battle scars relative to age which I think keeps the piece in the desirable old antique range rather than brand new restoration bracket. I think this way it retains character relative to her age and still looks like the lady she is.
Note that in the neck joint some wood has parted company from where it was glued. This I intend to leave as it is so that unwanted gaps are not created prior to glueing it back in. If it has stuck that good in those spots then it can stay there.
The neck V shaped join is 18mm deep at the bottom (narrowest point) of the V And 15mm at the top ( piece of almost useful information for the day)
If people think I'm on the right track then the next step will be to fill some of the dings not yet made to dissapear with a gradual build up of high gloss lacquer until the surface is even. ( have done this with dings in fancy rifle stocks and it is possible to make the blemish pretty hard to find. Is often just seen as a variation in wood grain.)
If those viewing could let me know their thoughts it would be appreciated. This is my first antique guitar makeover.
Cheers Glenn
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Found the date in pencil by the f hole 4.5.57 Looking pretty good I think for being 62 years old.
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What the photos above dont show is how mould got into the finish and ate down to the wood. The result a mass of tiny pock marks. I killed the Mould and when dry, cleaned it up as good as I could get it, tried to touch it up with lacquer. Had a nasty reaction with the mould that had got down to the timber and the result was a green stain spreading from each pin hole. One piece was the size of a 10 cent piece. Was totally gutted as this is not a thing I have ever seen happen before and I have worked with wood for 40 years.
Nothing would remove the stuff so had no option but to sand the whole top down to bare wood to get rid of it all. The finish was as hard as glass and it took 6 hours of sanding by hand to get a reasonable finish with all the staining gone.
Sanded down to 1000 grit and buffed with a soft cloth untill ther wood took on a shine of its own.
Gave it 2 coates of Birchwood Casey grain filler. Sanded smooth between coates and buffed with soft cloth. Then applied a coat of Birchwood Casey true oil. When dry I rubbed it down gently with 000 grade steel wool and gave it another coat. Photo of finish to date attached.
The next step was to plug all the screw holes from different sets of machine heads that had been put on it over the years. I made pluges tapered to a point and put a little PVA wood glue in the hole and a little on the plug and tapped then in lightly until tight. These can now be cut down and the headstock re-finished ready for the new and period correct machine heads to be fitted. Photo attached.
The existing holes for the machine head posts might have to be shimmed to the correct size but that we will have to wait to check out when the machine heads arrive.
Have left a couple of small, blemishes and a couple of light scratches in the finish to try and retail the old antique guitar look , Was a bit worried that the face of the guitar was going to turn out white but the grain filler had great penetration into the wood and bought out the nice yellow colour of the timber so that it retains the aged yellow look. Give it ten or 15 years to yellow up a bit with age and I dont think it will be much different from original.
Cheers Glenn
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