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Apologies for the delay in posting the promised pictures of my Ibanez Joe Pass model guitar modification - due to a combination of computer difficulties and taking a short break away in Paris. But it is at last complete, and in the event I had contracted "guitar mod fever" and was unable to stop at just fitting the Kent Armstrong Slimbucker - so felt compelled to change the existing pickup also to an Artec P90 type. The basic "problem" with this model guitar is that the stock pickup is located some distance from the usual neck sweet spot, and so gives a sharper, less mellow sound than many would like.
By fitting the Slimbucker in the gap at the end of the fingerboard, I have basically solved this issue - the new pickup gives what to me is a classic jazz guitar tone: detailed, balanced, warm, with good "acoustic" character coming through. So I'm very pleased with that one! By contrast the stock Ibanez pickup sounded inferior to me - still warm, but too thick and heavy, and with a disproportunate bass response that made setting the amp tone controls difficult. So I decided to change that too! and have put in an admittedly cheap Artec "golden splendor fat P90" pickup. Actually, this is also an improvement IMO, as it is more balanced and acoustic sounding, plus provides a more useful contrast with the Kent Armstrong - it has a bit more "edge" and bite. On it's own it would be a perfectly good jazz tone.
So I'm quite chuffed overall, though I would add that the differences I've noted are on the subtle side - it was a good guitar before, but now it is the guitar I always knew it could be. I have also added a new own design stepped pickguard with what I hope is a 1930's esque look, although influenced by one of the D'Angelico designs. A mini 3-way switch hidden under the guard gives the usual pickup combinations, though the sound of both pickups together is a little weak and light in bass. At least it's there if I ever want it, and might prove useful for light comping perhaps. A final small mod was to change the pot knobs to black "chicken head" style as I think they look cool, and as a tribute to Barney Kessel! Cheers also to RandyC for advice on the switching and for providing a schematic for the electronics, which work perfectly. Most of the images show the guitar post-mod but there is one taken last summer in the original state, and one before I had put in the P90. I could waffle on but I'll stop for now and post the pictures:Last edited by Meggy; 12-02-2009 at 02:26 PM.
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12-02-2009 02:18 PM
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I saw the chickens and thought of Barney LOL.
I never understood the pickup placement on those guitars either.
If both pickups together are weak and thin sounding they might be out of phase. Easy to test, easy to fix.
Good work. What is next?
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Yeah, I thought of the out of phase possibility also. I didn't think that was the case though - it isn't what I would call an out-of-phase type sound, just kind of weak and a bit wimpy (I did once wire another guitar out of phase by mistake and got an instant urge to play 70's funk rhythm licks all the time, but this is not like that). But I could be wrong I suppose. To fix it I think I would have to do a bit of work with the P90 - probably reversing the magnets would be the easiest option. I'll have to look into it I guess. How would you test for out-of-phase dh?
As to what's next... probably nothing for a while, I'll just enjoy playing it for a while and actually do some practice for a change! I have got a strat type guitar that I'm not entirely happy with pickup wise, but I might prefer to just sell that and re-invest in a semi-acoustic which I quite fancy. Cheers for taking an interest though - you're help with advice on the slimbucker was appreciated!
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Very nice, I especially like your choice of pickguard, really fits it nicely. I will imagine most will not even notice the pup between the bucker and neck. Glad it worked out, and thanks for posting the picks. This might be referred to as the "Meggy Mod" in the future by other JP owners.
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Congratulations! It looks great and I'll take your word that it sounds great, too.
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Thanks for your kind words derek. As you probably realise, I just wanted to show off my "new" guitar a bit! I realise it's not the world's greatest guitar, but it is pretty nice I think, and I've always found it very comfortable and easy to play - it was just the pickup placement that bugged me a little. And now that is fixed - hooray! And cheers for liking the pickguard - since the guitar is partly based on Joe Pass's D'Aquisto I felt there was a link there to D'Angelico and hence I thought the stepped design was quite appropriate. Plus it makes the guitar a little more unique. As to the "Meggy Mod" title I would be honoured (and suprised) if that caught on, but I do think that the possibility of this mod makes the JP20 a more attractive buy - the prices they fetch now seem quite low, and IMO the overall quality of the guitar is high.
Originally Posted by derek
Very nice, I especially like your choice of pickguard, really fits it nicely. I will imagine most will not even notice the pup between the bucker and neck. Glad it worked out, and thanks for posting the picks. This might be referred to as the "Meggy Mod" in the future by other JP owners.
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Thanks BigDaddy, nice of you to say so. It does sound great to me (through a Polytone!) which I guess is all that matters in the end, although I don't have a vintage L5 to compare it to! On that subject, did you get your scratchplate situation resolved? Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I'm going on holiday soon, so I'm going to order a new one in January. Originally Posted by Meggy
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Nice work, Meggy. From a few feet away, your modifications are probably undetectable and I like that. The chickenheads are a nice idea and functionally advantageous in dim lighting. (I had the same reaction as dh regarding the out-of-phase thing but I'm sure that you know the difference.)
cheers,
randyc
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Cheers randy, yes indeed, the Armstrong pickup is quite easy to miss as it seems to blend in with the darker parts of the sunburst finish, and the other pickup catches the eye more. Funny in a way as I would consider the Armstrong to now be my main sound, and the P90 as more of an occasional alternative. Anyone who knows about the model will spot that I've changed the stock pickup to a P90 type though, and maybe the pickguard too I guess. But I too like the low key nature of the modifications, some of which was more of a happy accident than planned. For example, I was going to order a gold Slimbucker, and put a new gold cover on the original pickup, but my sister told me that black would look better! Happily I think she was right too. And then I decided I didn't want the sound of the original pickup anyway and put the P90 in, so it all worked out. Originally Posted by randyc
I'm sure you must have seen the same YouTube clip of Barney explaining about his guitar and the chickenheads in dim lighting, that I did. Not that I play in many dim lit clubs at the moment, but I liked his thinking, and the look has a bit of a tie-in with my 1930's-ish pickguard for me.
As to the out of phase, I know I did say to you that wasn't the case, but now I'm really wondering a little. I have heard out of phase wiring on another guitar of mine (bridge and neck humbuckers) and it had quite a distinctive "honk" and overall sound to it. This is not like that at all, just weak in volume with a somewhat light bass. Otherwise a more or less normal tone. Maybe it's just an effect that happens with two pickups placed very close together? I don't have an oscilloscope (just a digital multi-meter) so I'm not sure how I should test for out of phase anyway. If you do have any thoughts as to this whole issue I would be very grateful.
Glad you approve of the way it turned out though and cheers again!
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[quote=Meggy;57940]...As to the out of phase, I know I did say to you that wasn't the case, but now I'm really wondering a little. I have heard out of phase wiring on another guitar of mine (bridge and neck humbuckers) and it had quite a distinctive "honk" and overall sound to it. This is not like that at all, just weak in volume with a somewhat light bass. Otherwise a more or less normal tone. Maybe it's just an effect that happens with two pickups placed very close together? I don't have an oscilloscope (just a digital multi-meter) so I'm not sure how I should test for out of phase anyway. If you do have any thoughts as to this whole issue I would be very grateful.[\quote]
Well, that's a challenging measurement because of the way that a DMM "works". It's basically a DC instrument, while your guitar produces an AC signal, or more accurately, up to six AC signals at a time, accompanied by a bunch of harmonics and intermodulation distortion products, all of which affect the measurement adversely.
All of this stuff has to be passed through a recitifier diode and an integrator, which simulates the voltage that a perfect sine wave would produce when measured in "rms" (root-mean-square) mode. So can the multi-meter be used to determine out of phase condition ? I'm not sure. But let's try the following:
Set tone and volume controls on maximum, adjust the selector to neck pickup. Connect multi-meter to guitar output jack, adjust the DMM to detect the lowest possible AC signal (it may not have a low enough range). Strike all six of the strings and note the AC output voltage on the multi-meter. A healthy humbucking pickup produces around 30 - 40 millivolts. Switch to the other pickup and repeat the strum/measurement. The output voltage should be about the same.
Now select both pickups and repeat the strum/measurement. Because of the differences in phasing, it's unlikely that a greater noise measurement will result but you see about the same level of voltage present as when the individual pickups were selected NOT less. If you see less, then try reversing the leads on one of the pickups.
cheers and good luck !
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[quote=randyc;57952]
Interesting stuff Randy - one of the side benefits of my new interest in guitar electronics has been the learning experience! Anyway, cheers for taking the time to post this - duly noted and I will see how it goes as soon as I have the chance and report back. Originally Posted by Meggy
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another easy way to check phase.
1) choose a pickup, measure the resistance. lets say it is 8000
2) while still checking the resistance let a screwdriver get pulled towards the magnets. Watch the ohm meter.. for a second it will jump to 8200 OR drop to 7800 (numbers are for example only).
3) Repeat. If one jumps and the other drops you are out of phase. If they both drop or both jump they are in phase.
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Cheers dh, I'll try this as well (I will wrap the screwdriver in thin tape so it doesn't damage the finish!). Does it matter which coil of a humbucker you use with the screwdriver? Originally Posted by dh82c
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I am feeling somewhat embarassed and not a little foolish. I tried the tests recommended by randyc and dh and guess what guys? - out of phase it indeed was. I know now not to be so cocky about my own views and to take a little more account of the expert advice this forum has to give. I offer my humble apologies to you both...
So yesterday I ended up taking the guitar to bits yet again
, and decided to reverse the magnets on the P90 (the Kent Armstrong is completely sealed, with two connections, one of which must form the ground - so difficult to do anything with. Fortunately the P90 proved easier to do, and reversing the magnets also allowed it to have the same polarity as the lower (adjacent) coil on the Kent, which ideally it should have. I was somewhat dissapointed with the P90's build quality - but it is a cheap pickup after all. At some future stage I think I might change it for something better - maybe a Kent Armstrong P90.
But now I have 3 good strong sounds. I spent a considerable time flicking from one to the other trying to decide which was best. Of course it's all very subjective but for me it might actually be the middle setting! The Kent Armstrong is more refined sounding, with more detail coming through in chordal playing, and of course it is sitting in the best position for a warm jazz tone. Probably I would have to say that it is a better pickup - you get what you pay for I guess. But the P90 does have a bit of bite and rudeness which can be nice for more of a vintage sound (if that makes any sense). And the middle pickup gives you something of both, which I like a lot. Overall, I am suprised though by the extent to which all the tones have a similar overall quality - governed I thing by the nature of the guitar itself, the amp (a Polytone) and my own playing (sadly...
).
But this has been a lot of fun for me, the guitar is improved from my perspective, and I've learnt quite a bit too. I doubt I would have tried any of this stuff without this forum, so I would just like to thank you all!
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I am glad your guitar turned out so well Meggy. I had some issues with the KA build quality. Sound wise I was surprised how good it did sound (and I agree with your description). But in the long run I am a p90 guy. I guess you got the best of all 3 worlds (the JP IS a sweet instrument). Congrats again.
Drew
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any possibility of sound clips - just a few chords and single lines played through the three different combinations ?
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I knew someone might ask this! Originally Posted by randyc
I don't have any digital recording gear at all so I'm not sure, but I might be able to think of something. I do have a small gizmo for converting analog hi-fi source (vinyl/tape) to MP3, so maybe I will record a bit onto casette tape and convert it. Hopefully the quality would be good enough for you to tell something about the different sounds.
As I say, they are all similar sounds in a way - more like variations on the same theme rather than totally different in character. And I do think that the P90 will have to be upgraded to a better P90 sometime soon - I'll put that one down to experience. But I'll have a go anyway, so watch this space!
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More embarrassment! I have changed my mind about the P90 pickup and put the original humbucker back in with the correct phase wiring (and with a new black chrome cover and gold polepieces - looks very sharp and classy). I was having too much trouble with noise from the single coil P90, despite my efforts to have everything well shielded. Possibly it was down to the cheap quality of this pickup, and a more expensive P90 type would have been better. The original humbucker does not seem as bad in sound as I had originally thought either. It is closer to the Kent Armstrong in tone, but a bit thicker and heavier sounding, with a little more high/mid punch due to it's position nearer the bridge. The Kent Armstrong does seem to bring out more of the acoustic qualities of the guitar, as I stated before. That's it, no more messing around, I promise.
All this chopping and changing makes me realise just how subjective and subject to rationalisation my judgements on pickups and sound really can be. Hope no-one feels I've miss-led them on anything. The one thing I can say with certainty is that the basic idea of fitting a Slimbucker in the gap on an Ibanez JP20 works, for anyone with one of these guitars who is not happy with the pickup placement. I still hope to post some sound files at some point, for anyone still interested out there...
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A more costly P-90 may not help the noise
The P-90 that I put in my Epi came out of a '64 SG and presumably is as good as those pickups get. I still have noise when I stand close to an amplifier ... twisting slightly, one way or another, diminishes the hum but it's always there (some amplifiers are worse with this pickup than other ones).
Maybe we're spoiled by the decent quality humbuckers that are available and we forget that P-90s can be a pain ... However noisy the P-90 may be, it IS nicer sounding than the Epi floater that was in my guitar. You're right on about the subjectiveness of these things though.
Whatever the complaint about the pickup, your guitar does look VERY nice - no complaints about the craftsmanship !
PS: still interested in sound clipsLast edited by randyc; 12-17-2009 at 04:02 PM. Reason: add PS
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Once I've figured out a way to get a decent quality recording, and transfer it to MP3, I promise I will post something. In the end I guess I'm just a humbucker kind of guy - I don't like any kind of background noise at all, and in general I tend to vear towards thicker, warmer sound also. At least I've learned that now, and I did at least try to get on with the P90 for a while! Originally Posted by randyc
A more costly P-90 may not help the noise The P-90 that I put in my Epi came out of a '64 SG and presumably is as good as those pickups get. I still have noise when I stand close to an amplifier ... twisting slightly, one way or another, diminishes the hum but it's always there (some amplifiers are worse with this pickup than other ones).
Maybe we're spoiled by the decent quality humbuckers that are available and we forget that P-90s can be a pain ... However noisy the P-90 may be, it IS nicer sounding than the Epi floater that was in my guitar. You're right on about the subjectiveness of these things though.
Whatever the complaint about the pickup, your guitar does look VERY nice - no complaints about the craftsmanship !
PS: still interested in sound clips
Now I'm planning to mod my strat type guitar - it will have a Blue Lace Sensor p'up in the neck (supposedly sounds like a PAF!), an old Seymour Duncan "Classic Strat Stack" in the middle, and a duel rails type (Alnico 5, 9K so not too hot/metal in character I hope) in the bridge. Plus switching to allow all 7 possible p'up combinations. And maybe coil taps for the middle and bridge, but then again maybe not. The idea is to bring it closer to my taste sound-wise, and I hope good for fusion playing, plus will be quiet. But this is possibly better left for another thread!
Thanks for your kind comment on the workmanship! The guitar looks even better now IMO, with both pickups with black covers, and just the polepieces on one pickup highlighted in gold. Although one can possibly get too obsessed with how the guitar looks...
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