Why aren't vintage Ampeg amps more popular?

[GregMath]

I have no experience with them myself, but I have heard them praised a lot on this forum. Therefore, I am quite interested in checking one out for myself. However, I don't see them getting used at gigs and elsewhere. This might just be due to my naivety though. There may be a simple answer to this question that I am overlooking as well.

[sgcim]

Too heavy.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have no experience with them myself, but I have heard them praised a lot on this forum. Therefore, I am quite interested in checking one out for myself. However, I don't see them getting used at gigs and elsewhere. This might just be due to my naivety though. There may be a simple answer to this question that I am overlooking as well.

My first amp, purchased new in 1964, was an Ampeg Reverberocket. I love the sound. I still use it in my rehearsal room, but I don't take it on gigs. It's about 30 lbs for 18 watts, so it isn't the weight so much. It's just that it has been kind of fragile in its old age. It never required anything for the first 35 years or so.

It has a single tone control which is treble cut, so it's not that flexible. Best reverb I ever heard. Not super loud.

The Reverberockets and Geminis typically sell for under $1000, sometimes well under. I don't see the old Jets on CL as often. The NYC jazz guys I knew in the 60s liked the Jet with a JBL speaker. These are the amps with the blue diamond tolex.

Given how much new no-PC (Ampeg mounted the components on a board (phenolic?) and ran wires to them - tubes and pots are on the chassis) tube amps cost, this seems like a bargain. You will have to put in a three prong power cord and do a cap job, but the parts are available from fliptops. It will also need a new handle -- the leather handles don't last this long. Tubes are available too, and my amp still sounds about the same even with modern, not NOS, tubes.

[Franz 1997]

a few possible reasons:
-vintage ampegs tend to be much harder to service as opposed to old fenders, due to the difficult-to-trace rats-nest wiring and often very cramped chassis layouts
-many of the smaller models -eg reverberockets - used obsolete 7591A tubes; these became very hard to find by the 90s, and 're-issue' tubes have only been reliably available for a few years, for some reason. So there was a long period where the smaller amps couldn't be re-tubed without extreme effort and £££$$$, and maybe they acquired an undeserved reputation for being un-repairable.
-as said above, they tended to be bigger and heavier than the equivalent-rated fender amps

A shame; their baxandall tone controls, and around 25W rating for the smaller amps, are ideal for jazz

[John A.]

The original Ampegs from the 60s (some models, even later) are great, and were popular in their day. The company basically fell apart through a series of changes in ownership. It disappeared from the market and was brought back a couple of times but the guitar amps never really succeeded after the original incarnation. Now, there are only bass amps. So, you don't see that many around because there just aren't that many, at least compared to Fender.

John

[ThatRhythmMan]

I recently picked up a Gemini V for $200. I knew it had some issues, so I took it over to Michael Clark. Michael said it had several “I’ll-advised repairs”. Nonetheless, he quickly sorted it out and rewired the original pedal.

I’ve tried it with. a British Greenback and with an Eminence Cannabis Rex. With either of those it has really great cleans. It sounds amazing with a Tele with Nocaster pickups and it takes overdrive pedals really well. The reverb is one of the best, if you ask me.

[entresz]

I'm glad they're not too popular.... I've played through an old Reverberocket and it sounded absolutely beautiful.
I want one and I can't afford to pay vintage Fender money for it!

A random side question- did Ampeg make many guitar heads? Most seem to be combos.

[tomems]

Pick up an Ampeg GVT5-110 - I love mine! They made a 15w one too, and I think a 50W one...

[rpjazzguitar]

a few possible reasons:
-vintage ampegs tend to be much harder to service as opposed to old fenders, due to the difficult-to-trace rats-nest wiring and often very cramped chassis layouts

I've had mine worked on a couple of times with no complaints from the tech.

The board with the components is a little more crowded than a vintage Princeton, but not dramatically so.

The wooden back of the amp comes off and there's the original schematic attached to it. But, there has never been, afaik, a component layout sheet. That is, if you can find the component you want on the schematic, you're going to have to figure out where it is in the actual amp on your own.

I was fortunate, apparently, that my original Ampeg 7591's lasted more than 40 years, by which time I could get replacements. I understand also that there was some way to substitute in a more common tube. Might have required a new socket, though. For some reason, vintage 7591's just disappeared at one point.

[Hammertone]

I have no experience with them myself, but I have heard them praised a lot on this forum. Therefore, I am quite interested in checking one out for myself. However, I don't see them getting used at gigs and elsewhere. This might just be due to my naivety though. There may be a simple answer to this question that I am overlooking as well.

Ampeg went through some easily-recognized periods in its history, and was a very successful company in its time. While there were some fine Ampeg amps built after 1980, the two main periods of their history are
1-from their inception until the end of the "blue check Tolex" era, @1968
2-the helmet-head logo era from @1968 until Magnavox sold them to MTI in 1980

While early Ampegs are great, the company hit its stride @1960 and grew rapidly in the 1960s. Clubs, schools, recording studios, and homes became home for many of these amps. But Ampeg didn't make stadium gear, so, even though they were widely used, and extensively recorded, they are not a significant part of the nostalgic visual record of the '60s for concert-going boomers, unlike Fender, Marshall, or Sunn. They were not visible at Monterey Pop, Woodstock, Isle of Wight, etc. As well, when British Invasion bands became big, Ampeg was not part of their story. Everett Hull, the owner of Ampeg, despised rock music, and certainly made no effort to cater to the obnoxious noisemaking of the kids during the 1960s. I disagree with the idea that old Ampegs are hard to service, but the 7591 power tube was not the easiest to find until recently.

After Hull sold the company and left in the late 1960s, all sorts of things changed, and the company’s products quickly evolved to meet the needs or rock musicians of the day. Unfortunately, the new owners faced some unanticipated difficulties that sidelined almost all of their new helmet-head guitar combo efforts, and most of these combos are quite rare. However, Ampeg was very successful with the SVT, V4, VT-22, V-2 and VT-40 throughout the 1970s. These were all full-featured, heavy, powerful amps. Helmet-head Ampegs weigh a ton, are expensive to ship and hard to sell. For the most part, they do not have effects loops or master volume controls. Today, very few people want or need amps like this, even though they were very popular in their day. The same goes for ‘70s silver face Fender Twins, Pro Reverbs and Super Reverbs - they go relatively cheap as well. Also, all of the bigger Ampegs from the ’70s used 7027A tubes, which are easy enough to swap out in the hands of competent techs, but I think the incorrect idea that they used expensive and hard to find tubes dampened enthusiasm for them.

There was an absence of useful information about all of these old Ampegs for many years as well, until the internet became widespread and the Ampeg Book was published. I think that all of these factors, along with idjit journalists, moron rock historians and reptilian vintage dealers, kept Ampeg awareness and prices down. The exception to all of this is probably the SVT, which never really went away and is still an expensive, in-demand amp.

Now, it’s easy to find 7591 tubes, there’s plenty of info on swapping out 7027A tubes, and more and more information about how pervasive Ampeg amps were in recording studios. It turns out that Ampegs were used on way more recordings than previously thought by pop and rock music fans. So there is more and more interest in this gear, people are beginning to realize how good it is, and so forth. Jazz guitarists were probably the least ignorant about old Ampeg guitar amps because so many older jazz guitarists used Ampeg gear in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Similarly, jazz bassists have always known about Portaflex amps. And, yes, the Baxandall tone circuit is the shiz.

[73Fender]

a few possible reasons:
-vintage ampegs tend to be much harder to service as opposed to old fenders, due to the difficult-to-trace rats-nest wiring and often very cramped chassis layouts
-many of the smaller models -eg reverberockets - used obsolete 7591A tubes; these became very hard to find by the 90s, and 're-issue' tubes have only been reliably available for a few years, for some reason. So there was a long period where the smaller amps couldn't be re-tubed without extreme effort and £££$$$, and maybe they acquired an undeserved reputation for being un-repairable.
-as said above, they tended to be bigger and heavier than the equivalent-rated fender amps

A shame; their baxandall tone controls, and around 25W rating for the smaller amps, are ideal for jazz

I just did a search after seeing a used Reverb Rocket on one of the local to NJ craigslists (probably still there) and read that there is new production of the former hard to find Ampeg tubes..maybe the 7591s.

[mad dog]

They were not shunned by me. One of the best sounding amps I've played was a beat old Gemini II. Had been converted to 6L6s - badly. The micky mouse mounting of the replacement PT failed in shipping, took out the filter can. I got half my money back (from already quite cheap) and had a tech friend do it right. He put in a tube rectifier, cause why not? And revoiced the amp for 6L6s by swapping a resistor or two. Jumpered, up loud, it had a unique and beautiful sound. Somewhat Marshalll, but otherwise not much like anything else.

But it was heavy. And sounded best loud. Which was really very loud. So now I don't have it. And everytime I hear a clip from those days, I regret not having it.

Still on my amp short list is the Gemini I.

[pilotony]

Excellent post, Hammertone.

[maggles55]

I just did a search after seeing a used Reverb Rocket on one of the local to NJ craigslists (probably still there) and read that there is new production of the former hard to find Ampeg tubes..maybe the 7591s.

FYI:
Yes, power tubes used by Ampeg, 7027s and 7591s, are currently available. But certain preamp tubes are not. Most notable is the 7199 (pentode/triode) tubes used in all Geminis. These have been out of production for years and all the good ones have been scarfed up by Dynaco amp owners. There are subs (also out of production, but still available as NOS), but these 1) require a pin re-wiring on the socket or an adapter, 2) are not exactly the same as a 7199 (Dynaco owners argue online constantly about which is the best sub).

Reverberockets, like mine, often use a 6U10 "Compactron" triple triode tube (a 12 pin tube) Also out of production. Still a fairly abundant NOS supply, but one day they will be gone also. And, there is no easy sub for a 12 pin tube. (One could replace with one and a half dual triodes, but this will require major surgery.

[rpjazzguitar]

FYI:
Yes, power tubes used by Ampeg, 7027s and 7591s, are currently available. But certain preamp tubes are not. Most notable is the 7199 (pentode/triode) tubes used in all Geminis. These have been out of production for years and all the good ones have been scarfed up by Dynaco amp owners. There are subs (also out of production, but still available as NOS), but these 1) require a pin re-wiring on the socket or an adapter, 2) are not exactly the same as a 7199 (Dynaco owners argue online constantly about which is the best sub).

Reverberockets, like mine, often use a 6U10 "Compactron" triple triode tube (a 12 pin tube) Also out of production. Still a fairly abundant NOS supply, but one day they will be gone also. And, there is no easy sub for a 12 pin tube. (One could replace with one and a half dual triodes, but this will require major surgery.

I found this

https://d1sjrnpi226dnf.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1382390378

It explains that moving some of the wires converts the 7199 to an available tube.

My reverberocket doesn't use any unavailable tubes (1964 model), but Ampeg did change the tubes over the years. The Ampeg books suggests that one change was due to quality issues, other changes apparently based on availability.

[Hammertone]

For those who simply don't want the hassle of 7591 or 7027A tubes, Ampeg did make plenty of amps with 6V6 or 6L6 tubes in the 1950s and early 1960s.
The Echo Twin often came with 6V6 tubes.
The SB-12 Portaflex often came with 6L6 power tubes.
The helmet-head G-20 (2x10" combo), GV-22 (2x12" combo) and GV-15 (1x15") all came with 2x6L6 power tubes.
and so forth.

[rpjazzguitar]

For those who simply don't want the hassle of 7591 or 7027A tubes, Ampeg did make plenty of amps with 6V6 or 6L6 tubes in the 1950s and early 1960s.
The Echo Twin often came with 6V6 tubes.
The SB-12 Portaflex often came with 6L6 power tubes.
The helmet-head G-20 (2x10" combo), GV-22 (2x12" combo) and GV-15 (1x15") all came with 2x6L6 power tubes.
and so forth.

There are three sources for new 7591's: EH, JJ and Tung-Sol.

Fliptops, a good source for Ampeg parts, sells tube sets, including for the Reverberocket and Gemini models.

I've bought a couple of things from Fliptops. In one case, it turned out I'd ordered something I didn't need. They (or maybe it's one guy) took it back and promptly issued a refund.

In case this helps anybody: Years ago I needed a cap job for the power supply caps. The big ones. In the original amp, there are 4 caps inside a metal cylinder. The tech who did the job didn't get a new one of those cylinders (not sure why, it may not have been available). So, he put together four separate caps, wrapped them in a bunch of electrical tape and stuck them in the amp. Surprisingly, they fit. And, in fact, that kluge of a repair has lasted for more than 20 years.

Recently, the amp stopped working (which turned out to be a bad tube). I swapped in some old tubes, one of which was even worse and the amp started smoking. So I needed to take it to a tech (actually, nothing was wrong and all it needed was a new tube, as it turned out -- the resistor that smoked didn't even go out of spec).

Anyway, I bought the correct cylinder from Fliptops and brought it with me to the tech, figuring I'd get that kluge out of the amp. The tech actually had the correct cylinder in stock, but said he'd charge me several hundred to install it. Apparently, it's not that easy a job. I don't think he was trying to gouge me, since he did the diagnosis and cleaned up a few other things for a fair price.

Anyway, for anybody getting a cap job on these, just be aware that the correct product is available.

[maggles55]

There are three sources for new 7591's: EH, JJ and Tung-Sol.

In case this helps anybody: Years ago I needed a cap job for the power supply caps. The big ones. In the original amp, there are 4 caps inside a metal cylinder. The tech who did the job didn't get a new one of those cylinders (not sure why, it may not have been available). So, he put together four separate caps, wrapped them in a bunch of electrical tape and stuck them in the amp. Surprisingly, they fit. And, in fact, that kluge of a repair has lasted for more than 20 years.

Anyway, I bought the correct cylinder from Fliptops and brought it with me to the tech, figuring I'd get that kluge out of the amp. The tech actually had the correct cylinder in stock, but said he'd charge me several hundred to install it. Apparently, it's not that easy a job. I don't think he was trying to gouge me, since he did the diagnosis and cleaned up a few other things for a fair price.

Anyway, for anybody getting a cap job on these, just be aware that the correct product is available.

These multi caps are usually called "cap cans". They make sense on amps where space is at a premium such as a Princeton Reverb. Many Ampegs, OTOH, usually had tons of internal space since they where built in large chassis and cabs. Not sure why they used cap cans since these are often not as good quality as separate electrolytic caps. They fail at a higher rate than standard electrolytics. (and it seems to me that by cramming the caps together you run the risk of more added hum).

So my advice is to save your "kluge" repair if it is working well.

[rpjazzguitar]

These multi caps are usually called "cap cans". They make sense on amps where space is at a premium such as a Princeton Reverb. Many Ampegs, OTOH, usually had tons of internal space since they where built in large chassis and cabs. Not sure why they used cap cans since these are often not as good quality as separate electrolytic caps. They fail at a higher rate than standard electrolytics. (and it seems to me that by cramming the caps together you run the risk of more added hum).

So my advice is to save your "kluge" repair if it is working well.

Thanks! That's reassuring.

Here's another tip from bitter experience.

For several years the Reverberocket worked intermittently. Sometimes it would make horrible crackling noises. If I recall, turning off the reverb helped, but I can't recall if it stopped the noise completely.

I had it to several techs, one of who recommended complete retubing, but the problem remained.

Eventually, an on-line guy suggested replacing a specific capacitor. I'm the furthest thing from a tech, but I was able to figure out which one it was and solder in a new one. As I was doing this job, I touched something that reproduced the noise problem reliably. I traced the wire and it turned out to go to the reverb tank. I pressed the jack to make sure it was all the way in, but that didn't help. Wiggling it, though, did make a difference.

Eventually, I figured out that the little wings on the male jack for reverb-send had loosened over the years. Even when the thing was pushed in, the wings were still barely making contact. Ten seconds with a needlenose pliers to move them a tiny bit solved the problem.

They built those amps to last.

[Dennis D]

Pick up an Ampeg GVT5-110 - I love mine! They made a 15w one too, and I think a 50W one...

...Did any of these, or which models had their spring reverb ?

[Wildcat]

So are these amps hidden gems?
If so, what do you recommend ? Other than those 2 ton 2X12 versions some forum members are selling.

[rpjazzguitar]

So are these amps hidden gems?
If so, what do you recommend ? Other than those 2 ton 2X12 versions some forum members are selling.

If you have to move it a lot to gigs and so forth, then the Reverberocket (about 30 lbs) or Jet (fewer lbs) would be easiest. Back in the 60s NYC jazz guys often gigged with the Jet with the JBL speaker, which was a factory option. Pretty small. Relatively low weight.

The Gemini is a bigger speaker and more power, but it's kind of big and heavy.

The Super Echo Twin is, actually, two separate Reverberockets in one box. Probably sounds great, but I'm guessing it isn't fun to lift.

I don't know much about the other models.

One point: the reason I love the Reverberocket is because of the spring reverb. I wouldn't buy one that didn't have the original tank in good working order.

[tomems]

...Did any of these, or which models had their spring reverb ?

My 5W doesn’t but... 15W looks like?
Used Ampeg GVT15 15W 1x12 Tube Guitar Combo Amp | Guitar Center

[GregMath]

Hammertone (or anyone else that can answer),

How similar in sound are the helmet-head Ampegs to the earlier era? Are both eras relatively simple to work on? Similar circuits and chassis layouts? Any major differences of note?

Also, how much variety of tone is there within each era? Do amps from the same era sound relatively similar, or are there drastic differences among some of them? For example, how similar is a Gemini I to a Reverborocket or to a Jet?

[Hammertone]

So are these amps hidden gems?
If so, what do you recommend ? Other than those 2 ton 2X12 versions some forum members are selling.

(sound of trombones with plungers). Yeah, My VT-22 for sale here isn't exactly inspiring any line-ups, but I can pretty much guarantee that it sounds better for jazz guitar than many of the amps ever mentioned on this forum. Most of these folks here do not need to move gear to/from gigs so its weight is not that big a deal. Rich, I'd be happy to deliver the VT-22 to your door. With a Jazzica!

As far as "hidden gems" go, not anymore. All the information about these amps is readily available online, there's a great book out there, and all of them appear on ebay or Reverb once in awhile. To me, the hidden gems are the G-20, GV-22 and GV-15 combos simply becasue they are so rare that no one has a clue about them, except me and ten other guys.

If you have to move it a lot to gigs and so forth, then the Reverberocket (about 30 lbs) or Jet (fewer lbs) would be easiest. Back in the 60s NYC jazz guys often gigged with the Jet with the JBL speaker, which was a factory option. Pretty small. Relatively low weight.
The Gemini is a bigger speaker and more power, but it's kind of big and heavy.
The Super Echo Twin is, actually, two separate Reverberockets in one box. Probably sounds great, but I'm guessing it isn't fun to lift.
I don't know much about the other models.
One point: the reason I love the Reverberocket is because of the spring reverb. I wouldn't buy one that didn't have the original tank in good working order.

- Echo Twins and Super Echo Twins are not that heavy or big, actually.
- tanks are easy to replace and a standard part. The correct replacement is indistinguishable from the original.