The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRS

    But if you've got the vintage bug and are a tone hound, buy a vintage Deluxe Reverb for $2,500+ or the Hand wired fender for $2,500, or a Vintage Sound Vintage 22 for $1,900. You can get a used DRRI for $700, drop in a $70 speaker and a few carefully chosen tubes and have a good sounding amp and be off to your next gig.
    If a used drri is $700 plus a usable speaker and tubes, and a used recent boutique can be had for a couple hundred more, then it seems an obvious choice to me. If the speaker and tubes of a drri are of marginal quality, then why would we believe that the pcb and components that populate it are any different?
    Going with a Vintage Sound Vintage 22 for example gets you a real solid pine cab, and various upgrades like mid control, dwell control, possibly external bias points, etc.
    Imho, today to decide between a chintzy pcb, and an ancient wavy, possibly moisture absorbed turret board is unnecessary because the boutique is available.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRS
    DRRIs have a plywood cab, not MDF.
    My mistake. Still, ply is not solid.

  4. #28

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    Since we're living in the age of artificially aged guitar woods (aka roasted maple etc), I wonder if there are any pre-aged speakers that you can buy "new"?
    A very well broken in speaker can make all the difference IMHO.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    Any tube gear from the 1960s will take more time and effort to make functional and reliable than a new amplifier. Many "vintage" amps I have seen or heard on the current market are trashed, modified or sound like crap.
    In the 20+ years that I've owned my 1968 DR, everything has been replaced except the original pots, jacks, and transformers. Even the reverb tank is replaced, basically the amp has been totally rebuilt, lots of work, but it has retained it's original awesomeness for decades to come.

    Point is, a vintage amp can require lots of upkeep or work to bring it and keep it up to spec.

  6. #30

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    Even when a vintage amp is trashed, a good tech will revive it. As long as basic components like the transformers are in good condition, you're ok. And things like old pots, transformers, tubes, reverb tanks, etc, they just don't make them like they used to now days . All the boutique and clone stuff I've heard, owned or played, they were always very clearly high quality amps, but didn't sound like the real thing to me. Plus I know many players would disagree, but in my opinion a well serviced vintage amp is more reliable than a modern or even new one. Statistically from personal experience and many friends, less problems over time.

  7. #31

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    how can you make a comparison unless the same tubes were used in each, biased to the same point?

  8. #32

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    by the way, i wouldn't waste my time with either one. For the same or way less dough, buy a used fargen or allen or dr z.

    10x better construction and sounds amazing

  9. #33

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    so many wax poetic about the vintage amps but I have owned probably 2 dozen bf and sf fender amps. They were all headaches when you get them 40+ years later. 40 years of baked parts, parts going out of spec, cold solder joints, vibrations causing issues, parasitic oscillations, yada-yada. I had one super reverb turned into a head that I literally spent a year trying to fix. There was some ghost in there causing chittering. I finally removed every part and rebuilt the entire circuit board. Turns out, the problem was a teeny piece of solder sitting between the two waxed boards in there (horrible design decision) and it would move around whenever the amp was moved and inadvertently touch something. This is why I'd recommend a fargen. It's a new build using top quality parts and built the right way by an actual technician, not by someone making minimum wage and moonlighting...

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTT
    Since we're living in the age of artificially aged guitar woods (aka roasted maple etc), I wonder if there are any pre-aged speakers that you can buy "new"?
    A very well broken in speaker can make all the difference IMHO.
    play through the speaker a couple hours a day for a month and it'll be broken in.

  11. #35

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    I'm constantly surprised at what the guitar and amp industry puts out with the label of "reissue" while the design and construction of said items in no way matches or replicates the original item. It seems to be one of those things where "if you tell a lie often enough people will eventually believe it"
    We're reissuing our beloved 1959 "@#$%" model... with a different neck carve, super jumbo frets, super distortion pickups and a phase switch, poplar body and Katy Perry graphics! Premier Guitar magazine will give it a glowing review, while noting some purists will be offended by the carbon fiber jackplate that's not original.

  12. #36

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    My experience with the '65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue was not good, it was a painfully bright sounding amp even with the treble on '1'. At the same time, the bass was flubby and overbearing. I really struggled with this amp.

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by skiboyny
    I really don't think the circuit board itself would make the amp sound any different. The components don't care how they are wired together. Given the exact same parts, the circuit board amp should sound the same as a turret board. The difference in my mind would be overall reliability. These tube amps were designed in days of old, and by design use high voltages. With that, and the tubes themselves, comes heat and that's where I would be most concerned. I think the circuit board design would be much less likely to survive.

    I'd say turret board point to point construction gives a huge distinction past reliability. The components are further apart, less interference with other components.

    There is a much more rich harmonically full sound with superior note separation on hardwired amps - PCB could never compare. Furthermore, with the use of a variac or "the brown box" you can adjust the voltage down to 110 or so and "unlock" even more potential with a hardwired amp. Lets the amp breath more and lets the amp run not as hot - not possible with a PCB, the sag makes it sound like poo.

    BTW i made an account here just to put these ideas out there LOL

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiancoNeri6969
    There is a much more rich harmonically full sound with superior note separation on hardwired amps - PCB could never compare. Furthermore, with the use of a variac or "the brown box" you can adjust the voltage down to 110 or so and "unlock" even more potential with a hardwired amp. Lets the amp breath more and lets the amp run not as hot - not possible with a PCB, the sag makes it sound like poo.
    Sorry, but I just don’t buy that. And I sure don’t hear it. And furthermore, there is no theoretical evidence to support that.

    I prefer turret, eyelet or p-t-p over PCB but only it’s (usually) more reliable and easier to work on and mod.

    A good PCB amp can sound as good as any (boutique or not) handwired amp.

    There, I said it!

  15. #39

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    Vintage amps have some unique sound.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiancoNeri6969
    I'd say turret board point to point construction gives a huge distinction past reliability. The components are further apart, less interference with other components.

    There is a much more rich harmonically full sound with superior note separation on hardwired amps - PCB could never compare. Furthermore, with the use of a variac or "the brown box" you can adjust the voltage down to 110 or so and "unlock" even more potential with a hardwired amp. Lets the amp breath more and lets the amp run not as hot - not possible with a PCB, the sag makes it sound like poo.

    BTW i made an account here just to put these ideas out there LOL
    As to the pcb/hw debate:

  17. #41

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    I for one am thankful for the re-issue amps, especally the reissue Deluxe Reverb. If it wasn't for the reissues I probbly would not have been able to by my like new 1974 Deluxe reverb for the price I paid. Even though it's one of the crappy Silverface ones!
    thanks John

  18. #42

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    I've had duds and greats in both vintage and reissue. Since there are variations in each part used in the circuit, some of this is luck in how the sum total of the individual components turns out. I think you need to play an amp for a while and sometimes you win, sometimes not. Great comments above about repairability of the vintage models. I try not to be a snob, but I feel like my heart loves the old ones more.

  19. #43

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    A realistic comparison between vintage and reissue should take into account all factors.

    The vintage amp is unavailable, except for those who can find one and afford it. The new owner must also take the risk that the amp might need repair in the near future: people sell amps for a reason, and that is not necessarily because ‘it is not getting the use it deserves.’ Like Cosmic Gumbo’s DR, the vintage amp might need every part replaced, eventually. All this costs money and time.

    The reissue amp can be found in a music shop. It comes in a box, with a warranty. It is not the same thing, but it is close enough that most could not tell the difference.

  20. #44

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    I own a very clean '77 Silverface Deluxe Reverb that I bought about 13 years ago. I swapped out the original speaker and replaced it with a Weber California (Ted's take on the venerable JBL D120F) and it now sounds absolutely amazing.

    However...It only took 3 different amp techs working on it over a span of those 13 years and over $600 (not including the cost of the speaker) to get it there. The first amp tech did a full servicing plus 'blackfaced' the 30 year old amp and tried to fix an intermittent reverb issue. He never was able to fix the reverb issue, even after 5 visits to his shop. It did sound better, tone-wise, but I wanted reliable reverb. The second tech also tried to correct the issue, but after 2 visits, no success. In the process he also tweaked the amp, making it sound a bit better...but reverb was still an issue after a few weeks of use. The third tech took two visits, one to replace the original reverb driver (did not resolve the issue), and the second to replace the original pan with a new one (fixed the issue)! Along this journey I swapped tubes here and there, using NOS pre-amp tubes and new JJ 6V6 power tubes.

    As stated above, the amp now sounds stellar.

    My bad luck and long journey to a great sounding old DR had more to do with incompetent amp techs than the amp being old/vintage. The bottom line is to be aware of the potential rabbit hole you might go down attempting to get an old piece of electronics brought up to snuff. There are SO many bits and pieces that interrelate and work together (nicely or not) in an old amp. Tubes are the easy parts to sort out. Its all of the other crap that can lead to either a money pit, or maybe tonal nirvana. I still would take an old vintage amp over a new reissue. That's mainly due to the serviceability of the hand-wired rigs of the past...even if it takes a few so-called amp techs to get there. I was lucky. I eventually found a great guy to work on my amps.

    I'll never sell this 1977 Silverface rig. We have too much history together.


  21. #45

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    It can save you tons of money when you know how to work on tube amps! (And it’s fun!) You can solve most problems with just a multimeter, a chopstick, a soldering iron and the internet (I have acces to a great tech with an oscilloscope and tons of knowledge for the severe cases).

    I learned to fix problems myself out of necessity when I was a poor student and my Fender Blues Deluxe (PCB amp with a 16V op-amp circuit for the channel switching, ough.... steep learning curve!) started acting up. Vintage amps with eyelet/turret-boards, strip terminals or point-to-point construction are sooo much easier to work on!

  22. #46

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    You do have to have a solid electronics background/understanding though, as these things can easily be lethal if someone doesn't know what they are doing!

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    You do have to have a solid electronics background/understanding though, as these things can easily be lethal if someone doesn't know what they are doing!
    Yes it helps if you know what high voltage can do and how long capacitors can store a charge.....

    You are right of course, I should not advertise this too lightly, those voltages can be lethal indeed!

  24. #48

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    i don't need a video to tell you there is a difference, and remember there is a gigantic price difference too
    the reissues are still the best deal in amps out there imo... but i'll take an old one any day

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by patshep
    i don't need a video to tell you there is a difference
    I bet you a crate of Corona beer I can make a RI sound better than a vintage one, or at least as good so you won’t be able to tell the differene!

  26. #50

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    I love tube amps and I have some high end boutique handwired amps from Fargen and Longbeard. I figured they are more reliable than the old stuff. I've also had some re-issue Fender PCB amps.

    That being said, I bought a vintage original Deluxe Reverb recently. It was built in January 1965. To me it has a different sound than either the PCB amps or the boutique amps.

    The amp I bought has not been gigged much, looks like it sat in a closet for 40 years. It has the original Oxford speaker. I have not gigged with it yet, but will do that soon.

    So far my impression is that the old vintage amp is quite a bit brighter than anything else I've played. But for some reason it works. I know we all play jazz and most jazz guys are not looking for a bright tone. But this one sounds great for jazz. And if you listen to the old records of the legends, some of those guys are using quite a bright sounding amp like a twin or a tweed. The archtop guitars really round out the sound on those amps.

    Also, the deluxe reverb amp gets dirty pretty fast. It doesn't have much headroom. But a little bit of OD sounds really good if you like a vintage tone. Again, lots of the guys on the old records have a small amount of overdrive, and we just sort of don't notice it unless we REALLY listen close. They are not strumming hard on power chords so it doesn't overdrive the amp that much.

    For ex- if you plugged a loud les paul into one the Tweed Deluxe from the Rudy Gelder Blue Note studio, then you hammered some bar chords and power chords, I bet it would sound like punk rock or blues rock. Jazz guys just have a lighter touch and that's why it sounds mellow even with an overdriven amp.

    My deluxe reverb breaks up too much around 4 on the volume so I will gig with it on medium to lower gigs. At 3.5 it has a subtle overdrive that sounds really good.

    I think most modern jazz guitarists in 2023 would not prefer this amp, as it's bright and a bit overdriven. Most people like solid state nowadays with zero gain and not too bright. So if that's what you like, you should be avoiding all these Deluxe amps.

    I am in love with this old deluxe. Vintage sounds very different and I like it better. I will probably pick up a few more vintage blackface amps. There's just nothing like them. You can really hear it when you're in the same room with the amp. It's got a very different vibe.