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  1. #1

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    Found this on the net (not my caption, don't mind it). Sure looks like Ibanez is trying to keep Metheny playing Ibanez guitars, and might be working on a guitar based off of Pat's Slaman? Anyone seen anything about this?

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  3. #2

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    It’s a shame that Ibanez tries to copy Slaman’s design.

  4. #3

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    Yeah, Slaman's design is so original! :P

  5. #4

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    Yeah let's not get too upset that Ibanez also is paying tribute to that old Gibson model. I'd be game to try one of these out...

    Big

  6. #5

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    Slaman’s PM Sister guitar is not an ES-250 clone. It’s 16” not 17”, and has a Venetian cutaway as opposed to no cutaway. Plus the inlays are picture frame like a 1930s L-7 vs. the 250’s bow ties.

    It’s a mix of Gibson attributes obviously, but it’s not an ES-250.

  7. #6

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    There are also other MIJ CC choices to ponder:
    Westville Aruba Crest


    Archtop tribute ATC350BK (Barney Kessel Tribute


  8. #7

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    No trace of miccrophone on this caption.

    How can we guess which type of mic' will be installed ? Not necessarily a CC...

    Cheers

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpguitar
    Slaman’s PM Sister guitar is not an ES-250 clone. It’s 16” not 17”, and has a Venetian cutaway as opposed to no cutaway. Plus the inlays are picture frame like a 1930s L-7 vs. the 250’s bow ties.

    It’s a mix of Gibson attributes obviously, but it’s not an ES-250.
    Fair enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Archtop
    No trace of miccrophone on this caption.

    How can we guess which type of mic' will be installed ? Not necessarily a CC...

    Cheers
    Good point. From the picture the routing looks wider and more slim than a typical humbucker. Pure speculation of course. I'm just assuming, from the tailpiece, that they're working on a "Slaman"

  10. #9

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    I think a Metheny CC model would be pretty welcome by a lot of people. . .depending on the price point.

    I'd be very curious what they would come up with, I can't think of too many Ibanez single-coil pickups, even P-90 style, maybe back in the clone era?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marwin Moody
    Good point. From the picture the routing looks wider and more slim than a typical humbucker. Pure speculation of course. I'm just assuming, from the tailpiece, that they're working on a "Slaman"
    That's a good guess !

  12. #11

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    I think that everything that can be designed in a practical platform has already been made. No cut, single cut, double cut, Venetian, Florentine, 12-19", thinline, long scale, short scale, hollow, semi-hollow, "F" hole, cats eye, diamond, markers, no markers. So who's copying? Splain' me.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Archtop
    No trace of miccrophone on this caption.

    How can we guess which type of mic' will be installed ? Not necessarily a CC...

    Cheers

    There are three holes in the top for the CC adjustment screws so ....

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by fws6
    There are three holes in the top for the CC adjustment screws so ....
    Whoa! Good Eyes!

  15. #14

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    It is rubbing me the wrong way, mates. Ibanez did this once before with Joe Pass's D'Aquisto and lore has it that Jimmy wasn't pleased that Ibanez didn't so much as ask him.

    Pat Metheny plays Linda Manzer guitars onstage without a nod towards Ibanez. Why not allow him to continue to play his Daniel Slaman? Does Daniel have any say in this? Did Pat and Ibanez ask Daniel if it is all right by him? Is Daniel getting any emolument from the sales?

    Daniel isn't exactly rolling in guilders. It just strikes me as wrong. OK, you may argue that Daniel was in turn riffing off Gibson. But Gibson never made a guitar like this in recent memory and Daniel single-handedly made the CC Blade current again. The 16" Slaman Sister is his own re-imagining of Gibson. I don't have a problem with the Archtop Tribute guys doing the ES-150, ES-350BK and the Westville Aruba Crest is a unique design. Gibson have sort of abandoned these models. But Daniel, mates...this is like his bread and butter. And he is a one-man shop. This is not a re-imagining but a ripoff. I hope Pat Metheny and Ibanez do right by him.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    It is rubbing me the wrong way, mates. Ibanez did this once before with Joe Pass's D'Aquisto and lore has it that Jimmy wasn't pleased that Ibanez didn't so much as ask him.

    Pat Metheny plays Linda Manzer guitars onstage without a nod towards Ibanez. Why not allow him to continue to play his Daniel Slaman? Does Daniel have any say in this? Did Pat and Ibanez ask Daniel if it is all right by him? Is Daniel getting any emolument from the sales?

    Daniel isn't exactly rolling in guilders. It just strikes me as wrong. OK, you may argue that Daniel was in turn riffing off Gibson. But Gibson never made a guitar like this in recent memory and Daniel single-handedly made the CC Blade current again. I don't have a problem with the Archtop Tribute guys doing the ES-150, ES-350BK and the Westville Aruba. Gibson have sort of abandoned these models. But Daniel, mates...this is like his bread and butter. And he is a one-man shop. I hope Pat Metheny and Ibanez do right by him.
    My take on this is that Ibanez is either making Pat a new artist model that he will actually use on stage (ala George Benson's ever-growing GB series), or simply another PM model that the masses will hopefully buy. Even Mr. Benson hasn't been seen playing the Chinese made LGB guitars.

    Have you ever seen Scofield play his 'signature' JSM100 supposedly modeled after his old AS200? Nope!
    But they sell JSM100's; JSM10's etc. all day long to the guitar buying public.

    We'll have to wait to see if Pat Metheny uses the new guitar...or not.

  17. #16

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    Pat Metheny will certainly appear in ads holding one. And to the uninitiated, it would appear as if Ibanez came up with it independently. I don't think Daniel Slaman is going to get any attribution in the ads.

    Is this going to hurt Daniel's sales? Maybe, maybe not. The irony is that I feared that Gibson would come down hard on Daniel with a C&D-Gibson objected to the open-book cleft in the headstock-but I didn't see Ibanez ripping him off. That is not exactly an AF105NT with 3 holes.

  18. #17

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    I just asked Daniel himself, and he sais that he wasnt involved or aware of this Ibanez until this morning

    Daniel acknowledges that the guitar looks like his but also sees some differences. He is somewhat flattered that a large builder is copying more or less his guitar

    Metheny BTW also uses another one of Daniels guitars at live performances, the “dome” nylonstring archtop guitar. Daniel also gets a lot of orders for that model due to Metheny playing it.

  19. #18

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    Yes, Ibanez is copying Slaman's design, but it's hardly like he reinvented the archtop here. It'd be one thing if they blatantly copied a Ken Parker design, but at it's heart it's still just a heavily gibson inspired archtop with a charlie christian pickup.

  20. #19

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    Not sure I see the Slaman connection in this thread. So only Slaman can copy the above guitar with a blade pickup he does not even make himself?

  21. #20

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    i only hope ibanez uses/or develops their own real vintage spec designed cc pup...with the 2 huge magnets suspended under the archtop..hence the need for the 3 screws

    like the guy in the uk makes...Charlie Christian Pickups - CC Pickups and slaman uses...to his credit!

    all the rest are bogus copies

    cheers

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    i only hope ibanez uses/or develops their own real vintage spec designed cc pup...with the 2 huge magnets suspended under the archtop..hence the need for the 3 screws

    like the guy in the uk makes...Charlie Christian Pickups - CC Pickups and slaman uses...to his credit!

    all the rest are bogus copies

    cheers
    I'm assuming that includes the CC pickups on the new Westville/Archtop Tribute ES150 and ES350 copies? They state they use their own MiJ pickups, but I haven't been able to locate descriptions of those pickups.

  23. #22

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    am not familiar with type of cc used in the newest japanese copies...be great if they were getting the pup details right!!!..i hope so..but wouldnt count on...takes much extra $$$ and knowledge..why i give credit to cc pickups in uk...he stuck to the original design...bravo..and slaman knew enough to want to use them!!

    even the great pickup man jason lollar uses plexi plates...they are for retro mounting purposes only...otherwise the 3 screws are not needed

    be interested to find out tho!..i like those archtop tributes!

    cheers

  24. #23

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    for $5k, put a frickin' pickguard in the case compartment and put the neck heel strap button on. SMH!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I'm assuming that includes the CC pickups on the new Westville/Archtop Tribute ES150 and ES350 copies? They state they use their own MiJ pickups, but I haven't been able to locate descriptions of those pickups.
    You will have to visit Walkin's FB page. It is buried in the posts of 2017 to 2018 where their work to develop their own CC is laid out.

    Ibanez working on new Metheny model with CC?-31958071_1371315986345634_3295132710883819520_n-jpg

  26. #25

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    Pat now also has a prototype of the Westville Aruba Unity, a tribute guitar, which will become available in the course of this year. Similar to the Aruba Crest the guitar has a CC pickup. But while the Aruba Crest has a maple top the Unity will have a spruce top.

    The first prototype was finished and delivered to Pat early August. He loves it so much that nowadays on tour he has his Ibanez with him for the stage and the Westville to practice. On this particular guitar there were a few other nice design things like stars on the buttons, and arrows on the pickup similar to the arrows on the sleeve of Pat's Kin record (right upper corner). This guitar was in my hands after it was set up a day before it went to Pat. I only can testify that it is a fabulous guitar. I liked it more than the Crest. I made a few pictures of Pat's Westville Unity guitar and its details, but was asked not to share these on the internet.
    Last edited by stevus; 01-12-2019 at 06:43 AM.

  27. #26

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    Oh, by the way,

    Ibanez working on new Metheny model with CC?-13512225_890253447785226_2357086067960210200_n-jpg

    Reproduction ebony bases with MoP bowties. Just saying....contact Walkin Shibuya JP.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr


    Not sure I see the Slaman connection in this thread. So only Slaman can copy the above guitar with a blade pickup he does not even make himself?
    VS

    Ibanez working on new Metheny model with CC?-20150111_130852-jpg

    Pat Metheny's Slaman Sister 1.

    You tell me if Slaman copied Ibanez's PM for his Sister 1 or Ibanez copied Slaman's Sister 1 for their Ibanez PM Slaman CC? The shape is more Slaman than the Ibanez's PM. And what did Daniel draw upon for the Sister 1? The 1923 Gibson L5.

    Daniel Slaman made or had a 6-pole adjustable CC made according to his re-design of the CC Blade. So, he had involvement in that pickup. The pickup itself is the not the issue. It is the whole package.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 01-12-2019 at 09:27 AM.

  29. #28

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    In fairness to Ibanez, they have had a very long and mutually beneficial relationship with Pat Metheny (as they have with Scofield, Vai, and Satriani) and one in which they have invested substantial money and resources. Assuming that Metheny wants to continue that relationship, then Ibanez has a right to continue to reap what they see as they justified return on their investment. Slaman is a lesser (and MUCH later) investor in the Metheny guitar business and has already has already reaped substantial benefit from their involvement. I don't think Ibanez owe them anything as long as their contracts with Metheny remain intact.

  30. #29

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    I don't see any issues. Metheny is playing a CC guitar on stage and Ibanez offers one.

    A Slaman is priced at 8500€, while the Ibanez will be priced under 3000 judging by their current Metheny model. It's not going to be a Slaman .. And I don't really think that the crowd that goes for a Slaman will settle for a mass produced lesser model.

    And who knows, maybe they won't even offer it in the prestige range, but instead will make only a Chinese version. Someone like Paul Gilbert plays custom made Ibanez high end instruments, while the masses are currently only offered Chinese versions of his fireman model.

  31. #30

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    For me it would also matter to what extent Daniel Slamans model was based on PM's ideas. If it is him who came up with the basic design ideas it feels okay that he passes his preferences onto Ibanez. I remember another PM (my personal favorite) moving his "custom design" from Gibson to Benedetto which got acknowledged without any criticism at all.
    just my 2cents .....

  32. #31

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    Pat Metheny | Vintage Guitar(R) magazine

    Metheny gives some insight into his thoughts about CC guitars in this article, including some on how the Slaman guitar came about. My reading is that it does away with some of the conclusions jumped to in this thread about how he and Ibanez are doing Slaman wrong somehow.

    I'd love to have a Slaman, but more realistically I'd love to have a production archtop guitar with a CC pickup that's easily available. If Metheny can convince a major manufacturer to put one on the market, then my hat is off to him. I don't really know who else is better positioned (or inclined) to get an instrument like that out to the mainstream market.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    You will have to visit Walkin's FB page. It is buried in the posts of 2017 to 2018 where their work to develop their own CC is laid out.

    Ibanez working on new Metheny model with CC?-31958071_1371315986345634_3295132710883819520_n-jpg

    ok, i'm afraid there's your answer...they are not true vintage spec cc pups..they just have the 3 screw plate for cosmetic purposes..to look like a vintage!!!...absolutely no reason for it other than to fake the look of the original...from the outside of the guitar i.e. the 3 screws

    but a true vintage has two huge flat magnets...which is fundamental to the tone of the original cc...




    seymour duncan makes an accurate cc, as well as cc pickups uk

    cheers

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Pat Metheny will certainly appear in ads holding one.
    I'm sure I'm not the only one here that has watched PM play the absolute hell out of his Ibanez live many times. I think that like GB, the PM Ibanez thing was a genuine endorsement for a working guitar.

    I've actually been a little surprised with the PM-Slaman thing, and I'm curious about what he might be chasing, if there was a slug of new (electric) material that he did with new instruments that really sounded different I would actually be less surprised.

    As others have pointed out, not much new under the sun when it comes to archtops. Hand-crafted execution is always worth patronizing but Gibson was always a factory and most of the icons of recorded music were recorded with factory instruments.

  35. #34

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    This whole thread is speculation based on a single photograph of not very good quality and little else.

    What Metheny's probably chasing is being able to perform and tour with guitars with the vibe of his own vintage CC guitar(s), including one formerly owned by Les Paul and possibly Charlie Christian before him, and also other vintage CC guitars that he liked very very much.

    Guitar for Pat Metheny - New Vintage Guitars

    Guitar for Pat Metheny - New Vintage Guitars

    Pat Metheny | Vintage Guitar(R) magazine

    As for the points raised by Jim S., I have to potentially disagree. Whatever agreements Metheny has with Ibanez do not give Ibanez ownership of designs by Daniel Slaman just because Pat bought a guitar from him. The Slaman designs are part of the transaction between PM and him, outside of PM's deal with Ibanez. Indeed, there are national and international laws about this stuff. Now, I have no idea if there is any actual design infringement by Ibanez on Slaman's work- that would be the rub. Just because something resembles something else (a 16" blonde archtop with a CC pickup, for example) does not neccesarily mean there is infringement in the legal sense. Possibly in the ethical sense, but I've never had the impression that Pat is an unethical guy.

    The moral sense of the situation ends up being left to individuals. Morals are neither as universal or as immutable as we like to pretend.

  36. #35

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    Maybe Pat actually asked Ibanez to make the new PM model with the CC pickup and super 400 tailpiece.

  37. #36

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    So, a small builder makes a design tweaking aspects of former arch top designs, then a big manufacturer does the same based on the small builder's design and/or the same sources as him, but it's OK for the former to do so but not the latter?

    The internet is weird sometimes

  38. #37

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    No speculation here.

    But Ibanez has a policy regarding their artists playing other manufacturers guitars and particularly getting photos of them playing them live. In the recording studio tracking, it wouldn't matter. But live would be another story...
    Last edited by DS71; 01-13-2019 at 06:07 AM.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    ok, i'm afraid there's your answer...they are not true vintage spec cc pups..they just have the 3 screw plate for cosmetic purposes..to look like a vintage!!!...absolutely no reason for it other than to fake the look of the original...from the outside of the guitar i.e. the 3 screws

    but a true vintage has two huge flat magnets...which is fundamental to the tone of the original cc...




    seymour duncan makes an accurate cc, as well as cc pickups uk

    cheers
    A Japanese high-end builder makes a design tweaking the original vintage model with new materials and succeeds in getting as close as one could get to the vintage sound. But then it is dismissed as being fake because "a true vintage has two huge flat magnets...which is fundamental to the tone of the original cc"

    The world is full of opinions

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevus
    A Japanese high-end builder makes a design tweaking the original vintage model with new materials and succeeds in getting as close as one could get to the vintage sound.
    Any facts about that ? I'm interested since, as for now, nothing is getting really close to a CC unit except the ones built by CC PU UK. I've tried the ones from Jason Lollar, Pete Biltoft, both floating unit and humbucker-sized. They are very good mic' but not exactly like CC PU.

    Cheers.

  41. #40

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    I have tried the Archtop Tribute models ATC350 BK and ATC150 CC at two occasions. Both times I was highly impressed by the vintage sound of the pickup. In November when I was at Walkin' in Tokyo again to pick up my own guitar I almost regretted I hadn't decided for the ATC150 CC. Not really facts, of course. You might already have noticed this YouTube video:



    My best advice would be to get in touch with Masaki at Walkin' who developed them and can inform you about the qualities of the pickup better than I will ever be able to. He is an honest guy and very proud of his achievements.

    The two ATC models are fabulous guitars, in fact Westville guitars too. Here is a less easy to find link to both ATC models on the Westville website.
    Archtop Tribute — Westville Guitars

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevus
    I have tried the Archtop Tribute models ATC350 BK and ATC150 CC at two occasions. Both times I was highly impressed by the vintage sound of the pickup. In November when I was at Walkin' in Tokyo again to pick up my own guitar I almost regretted I hadn't decided for the ATC150 CC. Not really facts, of course. You might already have noticed this YouTube video:



    My best advice would be to get in touch with Masaki at Walkin' who developed them and can inform you about the qualities of the pickup better than I will ever be able to. He is an honest guy and very proud of his achievements.

    The two ATC models are fabulous guitars, in fact Westville guitars too. Here is a less easy to find link to both ATC models on the Westville website.
    Archtop Tribute — Westville Guitars
    Thank you very much for all these valuable information !

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevus
    I have tried the Archtop Tribute models ATC350 BK and ATC150 CC at two occasions. Both times I was highly impressed by the vintage sound of the pickup. In November when I was at Walkin' in Tokyo again to pick up my own guitar I almost regretted I hadn't decided for the ATC150 CC. Not really facts, of course. You might already have noticed this YouTube video:



    My best advice would be to get in touch with Masaki at Walkin' who developed them and can inform you about the qualities of the pickup better than I will ever be able to. He is an honest guy and very proud of his achievements.

    The two ATC models are fabulous guitars, in fact Westville guitars too. Here is a less easy to find link to both ATC models on the Westville website.
    Archtop Tribute — Westville Guitars
    Hi Stevus,
    Did you happen to have a chance to check out the Westville Aruba & Grande models? I notice that they are now available on Reverb along with various Archtop Tribute models.

    Westville Grande: 17" Carved Spruce top


    Westville Aruba: 16" Laminated

  44. #43

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    Earlier I have seen and tried the prototype of the West Grande (still available on the Walkin' website). If you like that typical Kenny Burrell sound then the Grande may be the guitar for you. I am a great fan of Kenny Burrell so I liked it a lot. However, 17" is not comfortable for me to play so I went for a 15".

    As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread I had the opportunity to try a prototype of the Westville Aruba Unity made for PM with a spruce top. It is a matter of taste, of course, and where, what and how you play, but I liked that one more than the model with the maple top. In videos of Jesse van Ruller one can hear that the sound is quite dry. The Westville Aruba with the spruce top will only be available as a production model in the course of this year. I inquired earlier if I already could get one but that was not possible.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevus
    Earlier I have seen and tried the prototype of the West Grande (still available on the Walkin' website). If you like that typical Kenny Burrell sound then the Grande may be the guitar for you. I am a great fan of Kenny Burrell so I liked it a lot. However, 17" is not comfortable for me to play so I went for a 15".

    As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread I had the opportunity to try a prototype of the Westville Aruba Unity made for PM with a spruce top. It is a matter of taste, of course, and where, what and how you play, but I liked that one more than the model with the maple top. In videos of Jesse van Ruller one can hear that the sound is quite dry. The Westville Aruba with the spruce top will only be available as a production model in the course of this year. I inquired earlier if I already could get one but that was not possible.
    Thanks for the reply! I'll keep my eyes open for the Spruce top Aruba later in the year, but I'd also be happy with the Grande!

  46. #45

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    Do you know if this model has a Mahogany neck and 22 frets? Just wondered, because Metheny signature guitars always had 22 frets and Mahogany necks (if I remember correctly), and I personally always want a Mahogany neck in a set-neck guitar (although I'd most certainly would fail a blindfold test ).

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevus
    A Japanese high-end builder makes a design tweaking the original vintage model with new materials and succeeds in getting as close as one could get to the vintage sound. But then it is dismissed as being fake because "a true vintage has two huge flat magnets...which is fundamental to the tone of the original cc"

    The world is full of opinions
    yeah and i'm afraid i'll side with the opinion of barney kessel, seymour duncan, ccpickups uk and daniel slaman over yours!!

    why do they bother to have the superfluous 3 screw mount then?? because they want it to look like a cc from the outside!!!...they want it to look like something it actually is not...are their p-90's, strat pickups under a dogear P-90 cover??

    the only reason why a pickup makes a sound is because of the magnet/s...you bet the material type , size and gauss make a difference!!! it's a science, not wishful thinking



    cheers

    ps- & i was just answering lawson-stones query with jabs supplied pic/evidence..frankly i could care less what they do..but let the buyer beware, that there are guys taking the time and effort and money to build the real thing & and those that aren't.. but still want to appear that way...

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    yeah and i'm afraid i'll side with the opinion of barney kessel, seymour duncan, ccpickups uk and daniel slaman over yours!!

    why do they bother to have the superfluous 3 screw mount then?? because they want it to look like a cc from the outside!!!...they want it to look like something it actually is not...are their p-90's, strat pickups under a dogear P-90 cover??

    the only reason why a pickup makes a sound is because of the magnet/s...you bet the material type , size and gauss make a difference!!! it's a science, not wishful thinking


    cheers

    ps- & i was just answering lawson-stones query with jabs supplied pic/evidence..frankly i could care less what they do..but let the buyer beware, that there are guys taking the time and effort and money to build the real thing & and those that aren't.. but still want to appear that way...
    Good questions, but no reason to get upset. This MIJ CC pickup is also a magnet. I wouldn't consider it as a cheap fake. An up-price of 35.000 JPY (about 325 USD/280 EUR) above the price of a KA handwound pickup may indicate that.

    Personally I cannot bother so much whether or not screws in the top plate, as long as the sound is right. But as you know, some people do bother. Just like some people want their guitar look and sound exactly like a particular Gibson model, of course at a lower price. Such people would miss the screws even if these wouldn't be necessary. It's not my position, but I can understand that, also from a builder's perspective.

    Just like you I believe in the scientific approach. But then instead of criticizing, why not following this up in a more positive way? It seems to me you know a lot about CC pickups. I guess everyone here would benefit if you could find out for us what exactly Masaki at Walkin’ is doing differently from the examples you gave. And in case your initial critical opinions are correct then this is also good to know. Isn’t such an approach more fruitful than just sharing and discussing opinions about opinions, about gear we haven’t seen or tried? What do you think?

    Edit: you will find the same pickup on the Westville Aruba Crest and on the Archtop Tribute ATC350 BK. The latter has the three screws, as it is intended to look exactly like the Barney Kessel guitar. Apparently Masaki developed his own version of the CC. I don't see that as a problem, as long as it sounds right.
    Last edited by stevus; 01-14-2019 at 08:52 AM.

  49. #48

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    Having heard Pat play his Slaman in a band situation, I can say that I wish he'd just keep using his humbucker Ibanez. I love Pat, but I think he's getting more out of the Slaman than his audience. Not saying it's not a great guitar, just that it doesn't seem to me to be the best tool for the job he's using it for.

  50. #49

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    I will say that Pat's tone with a CC style pickup is NOT what I've heard every other player sound like with a CC pickup!

    I also need to remind myself occasionally that the Pat sound I love and associate with his playing so readily--the shimmer-y "two delays causing a chorusing effect" tone...yeah...he hasn't really used that in over 20 years, and it's time I got over it.

  51. #50

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    looks interesting the ibanez pm cc

    i wonder who’ll make the pu itself ?
    ibanez or someone else (uk cc pickups?)