Are semi-hollow guitars brighter than solid body guitars?

[Tal_175]

Never owned an ES 335 but used to own an Epiphone dot. To my surprise it was brighter than a humbucker Godin super strat I owned at the time. I thought it was the pickups. But I now have a chambered Warmoth strat that I built, it's noticeably brighter than my other stock US strat. I swapped pickups/elecronics and necks, still the chambered one is brighter despite being alder (the other one is ash). Chambered also has a softer, wooly attack as expected.
Is it generally true that chambered or semi-hollows tend to be brighter than solids?

[Tal_175]

I mean it makes sense that chambers (or hollowed parts of the semis) being more resonant take away some of the energy from the strings leaving less bass and initial attack for the pickups. But then you'd expect full hollows to be even brighter yet my ES-175 certainly has a much darker tone.
Although come to think of it, more resonant solid carved hollows tend to be brighter than the less resonant laminates. A solid Eastman I used to own was certainly brighter than the ES 175. So there is that trend for hollows too afterall. Sorry thinking out loud here. Just deciding whether to keep the chambered strat or sell it.

[John A.]

Is it generally true that chambered or semi-hollows tend to be brighter than solids?

Not in my experience, but I haven't done any comparisons where semi-hollow vs solid is the only difference between two guitars, nor do I know whether my experience is a representative sample.

John

[rpjazzguitar]

I think there's plenty of variation within each type.

My D'A EXDC seemed like a very dark guitar.

My Comins GCS-1 (maple top) can be too bright or too dark, depending on the tone control setting.

I had a Les Paul years ago (mahogany) that was darker than an L5S (maple).

So, I think it depends substantially on the individual instrument.

[Danny W.]

No.

Danny W.

[Tal_175]

I agree, it's certainly true that one can't predict whether the guitar is bright or dark guitar by it's design being solid or semi-hollow alone. My question was more about whether there is predictable effect of chambering or semi-hollow construction in terms of its brightness/darkness.
Do the answers so far suggest that if you take a guitar and chamber it, it'll be completely unpredictable whether it will remain the same, turn darker or turn brighter?
That's sort of the nature of my question I think. Relationship of chambering or semi-holow construction to the amplified tonal characteristics of the instrument with respect to it's brightness.

[Robertkoa]

I wonder if some of the brightness on 335's could be tamed by using a Mahogany Center Block ?

Seems odd that they used Maple- it's heavy and usually bright when you have a big chunk of it .

Also - there are Luthiers who know what they are doing. and seem to engineer the sounds from Semi Hollows and hollows to do what they want it to.


Here is a very resonant AT 130 ( Tribute to Gibson ES 330 ) by Westville - not their premium Westville Brand -

But - listen to the higher strings resonate more like the lower strings and get kind of flutey on the high strings ...stay with it - even later in the video with the pick you should hear it.

Their AT 135 does not quite have this effect.
Does your 335 ?

Anyway - this is mellower and more resonant than most solidbodies - it's made that way intentionally I think .

[cosmic gumbo]

Solids are generally brighter than semis. Especially Fenders.

[rpguitar]

It's not solid vs. semi vs. hollow construction by itself. The pickups are a major part of the equation. And the pickup is the largest component of the sound on a solidbody, then a semi, then a hollow guitar - in that order.

The same Gibson '57 Classic pickup on a Les Paul, then a 335, then a 175, then an L-5 WesMo, will go from darkest to brightest. Obviously, the guitar plays an important part in that. But put a Fender single coil on the Les Paul (if you could), and it will likely be brighter than the WesMo.

In addition, it should be stated that it's not just the electric guitar's construction that contributes the most to its tone - it's the weight.

[GNAPPI]

I never thought about it, but given that you'd have to have exact body shapes and sizes to compare with there are few that qualify to make a direct comparison.

The Les Paul / LP Florentine, or maybe the LP-ES (but the ES is mostly hollow), some Strats, and Telecasters come to mind.

[Tal_175]

The same Gibson '57 Classic pickup on a Les Paul, then a 335, then a 175, then an L-5 WesMo, will go from darkest to brightest.

That's exactly what I was wondering.
Pickups obviously play a big role overall but the question is the role that the degree of hollowness in construction plays in the amplified sound. So hypothetically when the same pickup is used like rpguitar suggested above, one would expect hollowness result in a brighter guitar (as well as some other tonal characteristics).
As GNAPPI said if same body shapes, sides (and materials) are used in the guitars that are compared one can get a more accurate result. Other construction parameters would certainly play a role. Early lighter built 175's are brighter than the modern heavy ones (that's the weight factor that rpguitar also mentioned).

[Robertkoa]

I like dark warm deep Guitars ...I mean the actual unplugged tone so you never really know till you try it.

But some models get a justifiable reputation for leaning in one direction or another.

I tried a Semi Hollow Les Paul which was much brighter than most solid body Les Pauls. The opposite of what one might think .

To get an even fatter , warmer more mellow Les Paul sound --takes some engineering I suppose and really , the demand is not there for a 'Jazz Les Paul'.

However , specialized companies like Seventy Seven have LP shaped Guitars like the Albatross Jazz - that are engineered to sound much closer to a traditional Jazz tone ...

Not just the pickups but the bridge and tailpiece, spruce top.

I think their bridge might be unique on these.

[stevus]

It's the Seventy Seven Stork Jazz

[Robertkoa]

It seems that what denotes 'Jazz Model' in Seventy Seven is : semi hollow with an either spruce or sometimes redwood top.

Anyway back on Topic , kind of....

Some Models of Eastman Guitars which are SemiHollow and Seventy Seven Guitars also and a few other Manufacturers are building semi hollow Guitars made to be deep and warm sounding .

It takes more than just semi hollow to make a warm sounding Guitar- and I surely can't ....so I am keeping track of who does .

[Tal_175]

I tried a Semi Hollow Les Paul which was much brighter than most solid body Les Pauls. The opposite of what one might think .

Is it really though? That's actually the reason I started this thread. There seems to be a common perception that semi-hollows are warmer than solids. I find that not to be true. As also rpguitar noted to more hollow you go, to brighter it gets. Of course there are other factors. But if we are looking at the nature of effect of a hollow body (chambered, semi or fully) it tends to brighten the tone in my opinion.

[mr. beaumont]

Honestly, I just think they're bigger, more expensive, solid bodies

[jzucker]

no, given the same components they are darker

[Greentone]

For Less Paul style guitars, the all mahogany body--i.e., the original Custom--is warmest.

For semi-acoustic, I find the Polytone Improv version of the 335 to be less bright than typical. Perhaps this is due to the mahogany block.

[Gustavo Eiriz]

The question should be: given the same pickups, same scale lenght and everything, the more resonant the wood of the guitar the more harmonic content and more attack and less sustain. I did the test of removing one pickup from an L-5 so the top could ring more and the sound became brighter and also fuller in the deep low. Of course you can tame it by using tone controls.
So the answer IMHO is: yes.
I played all of them through the years.. les pauls, lucilles, 335, 175, and L-5.


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[Robertkoa]

For Less Paul style guitars, the all mahogany body--i.e., the original Custom--is warmest.

For semi-acoustic, I find the Polytone Improv version of the 335 to be less bright than typical. Perhaps this is due to the mahogany block.

I wonder why they use Maple instead of Mahogany on 335s center blocks ?

It's probably brighter

And it's heavier ...not what most want either.

Now I'm thinking just the small blocks like Eastman does on some semis is the way to go and a lot of really deep warm semis and thin archtops are 2.25" deep.

ES 137 ES 135/ Holst Semi / Ibanez PM 120 / Heritage 525/ Eastman Jazz Elite Semi Stoptail/ El Reys @2 " etc etc

They should make saddles for tunomatics that go from wood tone to brass in brightness using graphite / carbon fiber etc...

So you could put low brightness saddles on the high strings ( some use nylon for that now )

If you play Metal or in a Roy Buchanan Tribute Band - #10 brightness saddles all strings .(lol)

Muting the highs at source is probably better than tone knob because the chords won't muddy up from bridge materials nearly as much as drastic tone knob roll off....you might be able to get the warmth of a wooden bridge with the precise intonation of a metal saddle ( but carbon fiber etc actually)

Semis might sound deeper without F holes- not sure.

And they could make warmer laminates for tops maybe / Cedar Redwood / etc

Some say all laminates sound the same but with modern glues and torrified wood -
possibly parallel grain laminates could even be done in 3 different woods.



I have heard demos where they play neck cleans on Strats from 1964 1968 1975 1998 etc etc and you can BARELY tell the difference.

So IME - a TRUE tone difference is where a LAYMAN would notice - and that requires more radical clear differences - often in the ' Unplugged Tone ' or in the signal chain etc.

Some things - just a particular Guitar is an oddball - much more bass etc .
1) Extreme differences Acoustically -
2) OR - Extreme differences in the Pickups (or Pickup Wiring - series parallel etc etc )will do it.

[ruger9]

In my limited experiences with archtops (I've only owned 3: an Ibanez full-hollow, a Epi Broadway full-hollow, and a Grestch Hot Rod with trestle bracing, which makes it respond more like a 335/semi-hollow), I find the opposite: the solidbodies are usually brighter. Alot of it depends on the pickups tho. I've never owned a real 335 (thinline, centerblock) type of instrument except for a thinline tele, which is much closer to a solidbody than it is to semi-hollow, in tone.

[Stringswinger]

The same Gibson '57 Classic pickup on a Les Paul, then a 335, then a 175, then an L-5 WesMo, will go from darkest to brightest. Obviously, the guitar plays an important part in that.

This has been my experience, having owned all 4 of these models with 57 classics and having used the same strings and amps on the same gigs with each.

[Tal_175]

Interesting. People seem to have different experiences regarding tonal differences between semi-hollows and solids (or guitars with various degrees of hollowness). I've no doubt people who are saying the opposite things (brighter vs darker) come from their own valid experiences with these instruments.
My theory is that may be multiple factors at play here. Hollowness perhaps reduces both the (electric amplified) bass frequencies AND higher overtones. Therefore hollowing has both darkening (reduce overtones) and brightening (reduce bass) effect. Depending on other construction properties one or the other dominates more? Just one theory.

[Tal_175]

This might be similar to why acoustic guitars with mahogany back and sides are perceived as warmer than rosewood ones, despite rosewood producing typically more bass response. Mahogany tends to suppress high frequency overtones and emphasize the fundamental.

[ruger9]

This might be similar to why acoustic guitars with mahogany back and sides are perceived as warmer than rosewood ones, despite rosewood producing typically more bass response. Mahogany tends to suppress high frequency overtones and emphasize the fundamental.

Also, when I think "warm" on acoustics, I'm not thinking "more bass", I'm thinking "more mids and rounder highs"... so yes everyone's definition and perception is definitely different. To me, RW sounds more "bass & treble", more "hi-fi", whereas Hog sounds more "lo-fi", "woody", and "natural". LOL