proof that guitar tone is in the hands...

[christianm77]

My favourite personal example of the point that sometimes cheap guitars sound awesome (not that equipment 'doesn't matter') is:

When I went touring ages ago with a swing band in Denmark and Sweden, and I was borrowing guitars on the road.

The first couple of nights it was an 1950's ES-175
The second stint it was a 3/4 Student Yamaha Classical Guitar with a 1/4" hole inexplicably bored into the side.

Now guess which guitar the bandleader preferred? :-P

[Greentone]

Hmm? There are lots of things going on in this thread. There is the "tone of the instrument" and there is "the musician's tone." These are different things.

IMO, nobody sounds the same as they cycle through different guitars, although they sound like themselves. For example, you would know it was Wes Montgomery or, say, Eric Clapton, as they picked up and played (in Wes' case) different Gibsons--a ES-175, a L-4Cw/pu, and a L-5CES--or (in Clapton's case) different Gibsons and Fenders--an Explorer, a ES-335, a Telecaster/Strat neck, and a Stratocaster. Each artist would sound like himself. However, the tone would vary--which it did on their recordings.

I sound like "me" when I play the guitar. However, if I play a L-5CES, a Super-400CES, and a ES-175 into the same amp in the same room (Polytone MBII, for example), employing the same phrase, the guitars will sound different.

Heck, I have done this with three ES-335 guitars set up identically and noticed differences in tone. Anyone could tell with eyes closed that it was me playing.

[christianm77]

Hmm? There are lots of things going on in this thread. There is the "tone of the instrument" and there is "the musician's tone." These are different things.

IMO, nobody sounds the same as they cycle through different guitars, although they sound like themselves. For example, you would know it was Wes Montgomery or, say, Eric Clapton, as they picked up and played (in Wes' case) different Gibsons--a ES-175, a L-4Cw/pu, and a L-5CES--or (in Clapton's case) different Gibsons and Fenders--an Explorer, a ES-335, a Telecaster/Strat neck, and a Stratocaster. Each artist would sound like himself. However, the tone would vary--which it did on their recordings.

I sound like "me" when I play the guitar. However, if I play a L-5CES, a Super-400CES, and a ES-175 into the same amp in the same room (Polytone MBII, for example), employing the same phrase, the guitars will sound different.

Heck, I have done this with three ES-335 guitars set up identically and noticed differences in tone. Anyone could tell with eyes closed that it was me playing.

Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?

[jzucker]

I've never been one to subscribe to that theory. IMHO, I think what most consider to be tone, is in reality, phrasing.

no, not at all...

[jzucker]

Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?

was doing that 20+ years ago.

[medblues]

...Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?

Check.

Nylon string fretless guitar (Glissentar) through octave pedal to see if it sounds like an upright bass. Check.

Trying rope core strings on electric guitars. Check.

Experiments are fun.

[Greentone]

Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?

In the 60s I used to run a classical guitar with a contact pickup into a tube tape deck preamp to tape. (The Stones did this, IIRC, on Sympathy for the Devil, but with a steel string. )

I thought the overdrive results were good.

[patshep]

to me 'tone' is usually what hacks strive for, instead of practicing.... (i'm not ruling myself out of that club btw)
tone is what people spend tons of money on gear to attain, but it's not attainable, because we should be in the moment enjoying the sound we are making and being in tune with it.... when people say a player has 'great tone' it means nothing, because, it's the playing that makes them sound amazing... then they go spend $5000 on a guitar, and realize that it doesn't give them 'tone'
it's like a zen koan, only not englightening

[jzucker]

Yes.

after 45 years of playing , performing and teaching I think I have pretty good idea about the difference between phrasing and tone.

[Greentone]

Hey, patshep, that sounds about right.

[medblues]

to me 'tone' is usually what hacks strive for, instead of practicing.... (i'm not ruling myself out of that club btw)
tone is what people spend tons of money on gear to attain, but it's not attainable, because we should be in the moment enjoying the sound we are making and being in tune with it.... when people say a player has 'great tone' it means nothing, because, it's the playing that makes them sound amazing... then they go spend $5000 on a guitar, and realize that it doesn't give them 'tone'
it's like a zen koan, only not englightening

The endless tone quest helps the music instrument industry though I wished it supported musicians more (maybe in addition to teaching music, professional musicians should offer "tone making" classes). For instance, I am curious how well those people who sell digital tone patches and IRs do. I woul rather spend my money on a score sheet than on a digital patch. My cynical guess is that someone who does transcriptions makes less than someone who tweaks Helix, AxeFx etc and sells the patches they configured.

[p1p]

The endless tone quest helps the music instrument industry though I wished it supported musicians more (maybe in addition to teaching music, professional musicians should offer "tone making" classes). For instance, I am curious how well those people who sell digital tone patches and IRs do. I woul rather spend my money on a score sheet than on a digital patch. My cynical guess is that someone who does transcriptions makes less than someone who tweaks Helix, AxeFx etc and sells the patches they configured.

It's a lot easier to buy new toys (for some) than put a load of hard work in..

[jzucker]

it's also easier to justify buying toys when you tell yourself that you are continually improving your tone. Improving your tone by practicing is harder and doesn't have the instant gratification. I think of lot of what I see on threads like this are people attempting to justify the gear purchases they make by continually insisting that gear is more important than the player when it comes to tone.

[Stringswinger]

it's also easier to justify buying toys when you tell yourself that you are continually improving your tone. Improving your tone by practicing is harder and doesn't have the instant gratification. I think of lot of what I see on threads like this are people attempting to justify the gear purchases they make by continually insisting that gear is more important than the player when it comes to tone.

I have seen great players make lousy gear sound great and I have also seen lousy players make great gear sound terrible.

It is the Indian, not the arrow, Tonto.

[jzucker]

and I love gear more than most so I'm not saying people shouldn't be pumped or motivated to practice more by having more gear but if the new gear spends more time posed on the couch than in your hands, that it probably isn't helping you get better tone.

[Midnight Blues]

after 45 years of playing , performing and teaching I think I have pretty good idea about the difference between phrasing and tone.

Likewise for me (with the exception of teaching).

To use Greentone's example; you can't tell me that Clapton's tone with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, where he used a Les Paul and Marshall is the same as his tone using a Strat and a Fender. It's just not possible. So, what is it then? Now, you may like his tone with either/or, or both and recognize it, but he sounds like "Clapton" because of the way he plays, i.e. his phrasing. Or if you wish, the way he expresses himself.

[medblues]

Likewise for me (with the exception of teaching).

To use Greentone's example; you can't tell me that Clapton's tone with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, where he used a Les Paul and Marshall is the same as his tone using a Strat and a Fender. It's just not possible. So, what is it then? Now, you may like his tone with either/or, or both and recognize it, but he sounds like "Clapton" because of the way he plays, i.e. his phrasing.

Let's see:

[Midnight Blues]

Let's see:

You seriously think that the tone is the same? It's not, at least to my ears. A Strat does not sound like a Les Paul and a Marshall does not sound like a Fender. He sounds like Eric Clapton because he is Eric Clapton and it's because of the way he plays.

We all have our opinions, which we are entitled to, so agree to disagree.

[jzucker]

Likewise for me (with the exception of teaching).

To use Greentone's example; you can't tell me that Clapton's tone with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, where he used a Les Paul and Marshall is the same as his tone using a Strat and a Fender. It's just not possible. So, what is it then? Now, you may like his tone with either/or, or both and recognize it, but he sounds like "Clapton" because of the way he plays, i.e. his phrasing. Or if you wish, the way he expresses himself.

I think you're confused. Nobody said that equipment doesn't make any difference. That is just something you projected upon this conversation.

Obviously the sound of a sears guitar plugged into a sears amp is going to sound different than an L5 plugged into a '60s twin. BIG !@#$ DUH!

Folks don't see the forest for the trees. The point is that a good player can get a good tone out of any decent setup. Not that you can make a tele with .008s sound like a '50s L5.

Aren't you guys jazz players? How can you play jazz and then get so stuck on literal interpretations of language?

And that has nothing to do with phrasing. Oy...

[christianm77]

OK, so someone on this thread must have said players will sound the same regardless of what instrument they play.

Not sure who that was, care to fill me in? Seems like a very black and white position that is impossible to defend in practice.

The writing off of everything that isn't the sound of the instrument and the amp as 'phrasing' is also a very black and white position, that I think is easily debunked by anyone with any broad experience of music.

It's a position that seems to me unlikely to be held by an acoustic player.

BTW am I the only one who HATES the sound of that driven Fender amp with the "Lucy" Les Paul in the last Clapton video? Gadzooks it sounds awful.

[Midnight Blues]

I think you're confused. Nobody said that equipment doesn't make any difference. That is just something you projected upon this conversation.

Obviously the sound of a sears guitar plugged into a sears amp is going to sound different than an L5 plugged into a '60s twin. BIG !@#$ DUH!

Folks don't see the forest for the trees. The point is that a good player can get a good tone out of any decent setup. Not that you can make a tele with .008s sound like a '50s L5.

Aren't you guys jazz players? How can you play jazz and then get so stuck on literal interpretations of language?

And that has nothing to do with phrasing. Oy...

Maybe so, but I’m not the one who said that equipment does/doesn’t make a difference initially. I am of the opinion that “Tone” is not in your hands as the title of your thread suggests. A player sounds like a player because of the way they express their musical thoughts, i.e. the notes they choose and how they choose to use(phrase) them. So yes, to that extent, I agree with you that it’s the player. Sticking with the Clapton example, in the videos that medblues posted, I could’ve been in that room with Clapton and as soon as he put down either of those guitars, I could’ve picked them up and played them through the same amp. The equipment is the same, hence, the tone is the same, but I’m not going to sound like him because I don’t play (nor could I) like him. The same with Ulf Wakenius as you mention when you started this thread.

That’s the only I’m saying, trying(apparently failing miserably too) to express.

[Midnight Blues]

OK, so someone on this thread must have said players will sound the same regardless of what instrument they play.

Not sure who that was, care to fill me in? Seems like a very black and white position that is impossible to defend in practice.

The writing off of everything that isn't the sound of the instrument and the amp as 'phrasing' is also a very black and white position, that I think is easily debunked by anyone with any broad experience of music.

It's a position that seems to me unlikely to be held by an acoustic player.

BTW am I the only one who HATES the sound of that driven Fender amp with the "Lucy" Les Paul in the last Clapton video? Gadzooks it sounds awful.

That’s not what I’m saying (see my response above) and for you to imply that my position on this is due to a lack of a “broad experience of music.” is rather presumptious and in reality, has no basis in fact considering you don’t know me and you have no idea how broad or narrow my “experience of music” is.

And I agree with you, that amp with “Lucy” sounded terrible!

[christianm77]

That’s not what I’m saying (see my response above) and for you to imply that my position on this is due to a lack of a “broad experience of music.” is rather presumptious and in reality, has no basis in fact considering you don’t know me and you have no idea how broad or narrow my “experience of music” is.

And I agree with you, that amp with “Lucy” sounded terrible!

So, you don't think that 'tone' just means the instrument and everything else is 'phrasing'?

[lawson-stone]

I think you're confused. Nobody said that equipment doesn't make any difference. That is just something you projected upon this conversation.

Obviously the sound of a sears guitar plugged into a sears amp is going to sound different than an L5 plugged into a '60s twin. BIG !@#$ DUH!

...

But gosh... I wish I had that old Sears tube amp I had as a teenager. The Silvertone 1484 head+2x12 cab is kinda popular in a crazy sort of way among vintage amp fans.

[Midnight Blues]

So, you don't think that 'tone' just means the instrument and everything else is 'phrasing'?

Of course not, it's also the pick/flesh, the amp, the speaker inside the amp, any pedals one may use, etc.