The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRS
    Great clip, Jack.

    Nice round tone. I like it. It's the ideas in your head and communicating them not the gear.

    I've always said the reason guys get all nerdy about guitar equipment is because it is easier to pull out your credit card and buy cool gear than it is to practice and play guitar.
    To be fair, I love getting nerdy about guitar gear AND I practice a ton. I understand what you're saying here, but you can do both. No need to flame people who like talking about gear.

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  3. #27

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    Going back to the subject line, any decent musician already knows that tone is in the hands. It's painfully obvious all around us, as we listen to great guitarists playing on an endless variety of rigs.

    That said, the instrument and tools definitely matter, and it is not always an efficient path from point A to point B to find one's personal toolkit. This is especially true in today's world where information that either supports or rejects one's opinions is everywhere, and not easy to ignore.

    Playability and ergonomics are hard to describe, but when an experienced player finds a guitar that he bonds with in that way, it may be the end of the road. That's probably the case with Ulf Wakenius and his choice of a guitar that some here would find unappealing. True with Metheny as well!

    Jack's gear explorations over the years are in plain view on the internet, as are mine. If we both ended up with instruments that caused us to stop searching, then it didn't happen overnight. It took lots of trial and error, and seeking something we hoped to find. And we are probably both much better and more knowledgeable players for the experience of having taken our respective journeys. I just wish it didn't cost so much, and leave me with so many guitars to eventually sell!

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpguitar
    Going back to the subject line, any decent musician already knows that tone is in the hands. It's painfully obvious all around us, as we listen to great guitarists playing on an endless variety of rigs.

    That said, the instrument and tools definitely matter, and it is not always an efficient path from point A to point B to find one's personal toolkit. This is especially true in today's world where information that either supports or rejects one's opinions is everywhere, and not easy to ignore.

    Playability and ergonomics are hard to describe, but when an experienced player finds a guitar that he bonds with in that way, it may be the end of the road. That's probably the case with Ulf Wakenius and his choice of a guitar that some here would find unappealing. True with Metheny as well!

    Jack's gear explorations over the years are in plain view on the internet, as are mine. If we both ended up with instruments that caused us to stop searching, then it didn't happen overnight. It took lots of trial and error, and seeking something we hoped to find. And we are probably both much better and more knowledgeable players for the experience of having taken our respective journeys. I just wish it didn't cost so much, and leave me with so many guitars to eventually sell!
    RP, let's face it. This section of this forum is like a bar for alcoholics. Do any of us need more than 2 or 3 guitars? GAS is an addiction. That said, the search for the right guitar can be both fun and frustrating (and indeed costly), but it can be quite fulfilling when we get the "right" guitar. Or guitars.

    To a certain extent this thread is like an alcoholic going into my aforementioned bar proclaiming that drinking is bad for you. I have my guitar addiction under control (Down to 13 guitars from 22) but have no real reason to quit. I enjoy them and no body gets hurt.

    And since I made a decision 21 years ago to be true to one woman, I am going to compensate by having a harem of guitars. I still look at other women. And other guitars (that is why I am here).

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott
    To be fair, I love getting nerdy about guitar gear AND I practice a ton. I understand what you're saying here, but you can do both. No need to flame people who like talking about gear.
    I couldn't agree more, practising and enjoying gear are not mutually exclusive.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    RP, let's face it. This section of this forum is like a bar for alcoholics. Do any of us need more than 2 or 3 guitars? GAS is an addiction. That said, the search for the right guitar can be both fun and frustrating (and indeed costly), but it can be quite fulfilling when we get the "right" guitar. Or guitars.

    To a certain extent this thread is like an alcoholic going into my aforementioned bar proclaiming that drinking is bad for you. I have my guitar addiction under control (Down to 13 guitars from 22) but have no real reason to quit. I enjoy them and no body gets hurt.

    And since I made a decision 21 years ago to be true to one woman, I am going to compensate by having a harem of guitars. I still look at other women. And other guitars (that is why I am here).
    And as an actual recovering addict, I can say that my gear addiction is the only vice I have left! So this section truly is my "bar."

  7. #31

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    It proves also the the Aria Pro II is a pretty good guitar.

    I have a couple Aria Pro II strats and they are good.

    You don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get a very playable guitar.

    If the neck is good and the pickups are good it will play and sound well.

    An electric guitar gets its tone from the electronics in it. The wood has virtually nothing to do with how it sounds.

  8. #32

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    I dunno I took my Ibanez artcore on tour (with Gibson pickups) and everyone raved about how mega it sounded.

    Usually I play a Gibson in that band.

    Good guitar is a good guitar. Plus, not very valuable so it can go travelling with me :-)

  9. #33

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    Very good points you made, rpguitar.

    I just read the Jim Hall interview mentioned (with a link posted) in the recent thread discussing the same “hands or gear” topic. He tells the story of why he got the Les Paul he used with Chico Hamilton. His purpose for getting the LP was pragmatic: he had been playing in a large ensemble that was very loud. He simply wanted a guitar to match the volume in that setting, most likely to avoid feedback from cranking a hollow archtop. He eventually traded it for the 175 (which belonged to Howard Roberts) and which he used for decades. He doesn’t say why he made that switch, but does mention, several times, his admiration for Freddie Green, whose style of comping can’t really be accomplished with a solid body guitar, and Jim comped like Freddie Green quit a bit. That’s my take on it anyway which, along with 5 bucks, will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

    So, here’s a recording of Jim Hall with the Chico Hamilton Quintet playing the Les Paul. Still sounds like Jim Hall to me.

    Last edited by El Fundo; 12-17-2018 at 02:31 PM.

  10. #34

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    100% agree it's in the fingers but this 'tone' does nothing for me honestly.
    It sounds like Metheny and I've never been a fan of his sound at all.
    No denying these guys can seriously play, but I'm not a fan of the rolled off treble, heavy reverb Metheny tone. I like to hear some sparkle from a guitar personally.
    But ymmv...

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott
    And as an actual recovering addict, I can say that my gear addiction is the only vice I have left! So this section truly is my "bar."
    Recovering? I have yet to achieve that lofty goal, and like you I have no other vice left to pursue :-)

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI
    Recovering? I have yet to achieve that lofty goal, and like you I have no other vice left to pursue :-)
    Well, my recovery is from drugs and alcohol (Not to be a downer. I'm pretty open about that stuff and have no problem talking about it, especially since I survived!).

    I'll never recover from my gear addiction...nor do I want to!!!

  13. #37

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    Hey, wintermoon:

    Tone does something for me--definitely. However, it comes in second place when compared to playing. An artist's note selection and timing affect me deeply. If the tone is arresting--think Wes, not Joe Pass--then it's all the better.

    OTOH, I'm a sucker for Joe Pass' playing. His swing, in particular, was as good as it gets. His tone, however, was generally nothing to write home about.

    I love Pat Martino's playing, too. His tone sounds, ah, muffled.

    Still, playing is tops.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    100% agree it's in the fingers but this 'tone' does nothing for me honestly.
    It sounds like Metheny and I've never been a fan of his sound at all.
    No denying these guys can seriously play, but I'm not a fan of the rolled off treble, heavy reverb Metheny tone. I like to hear some sparkle from a guitar personally.
    But ymmv...
    Metheny’s tone changed dramatically over the years. Early in his career he favored a very trebly, or sparkly, tone. By the time he recorded Letter From Home his tone had gotten much darker. I personally like both.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone

    I love Pat Martino's playing, too. His tone sounds, ah, muffled.
    100% with you here. Pat is one of my all-time favorite in any genre. But it's definitely not because of his tone...

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Hey, wintermoon:

    Tone does something for me--definitely. However, it comes in second place when compared to playing. An artist's note selection and timing affect me deeply. If the tone is arresting--think Wes, not Joe Pass--then it's all the better.

    OTOH, I'm a sucker for Joe Pass' playing. His swing, in particular, was as good as it gets. His tone, however, was generally nothing to write home about.

    I love Pat Martino's playing, too. His tone sounds, ah, muffled.

    Still, playing is tops.
    GT,
    I was saying I don't like the tone in the clip.
    Almost no treble and too much reverb for me.
    As for Martino, his early records, like El Hombre, I love that tone. In later yrs his sound darkened when he started using his Koontz, and got 'muffled' when started playing the Gibson Martino model and now the Benedetto.

  17. #41

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    Yeah, just because I like a darker tone doesn’t mean I like any tone simply because it’s dark. And I agree about Martino. His tone actually keeps me from listening much to him, although I do recognize his place of importance in the pantheon of great, legendary jazz guitar players. I love his rhythmic drive and endless flow of melodic lines. But tone is the first thing I listen for in any player of any instrument.

  18. #42

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    Listening to El Hombre now. You are so right, Wintermoon. That is a wonderful sound he was getting back then.

  19. #43

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    And there's a middle ground, "Live at Yoshis". Not as bright as "El Hombre", but not blanket dark either.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
    And there's a middle ground, "Live at Yoshis". Not as bright as "El Hombre", but not blanket dark either.
    Yep. I was learning some of his lines on Oleo from that album a few weeks ago and noticed that too. On El Hombre, it’s not too bright or too dark, but kind of perfect.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Hey, wintermoon:

    Tone does something for me--definitely. However, it comes in second place when compared to playing. An artist's note selection and timing affect me deeply. If the tone is arresting--think Wes, not Joe Pass--then it's all the better.

    OTOH, I'm a sucker for Joe Pass' playing. His swing, in particular, was as good as it gets. His tone, however, was generally nothing to write home about.

    I love Pat Martino's playing, too. His tone sounds, ah, muffled.

    Still, playing is tops.
    Early Martino tone though - bloody love it...

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
    And there's a middle ground, "Live at Yoshis". Not as bright as "El Hombre", but not blanket dark either.
    That's such an incredible record. Probably my favorite guitar tone of his. Did he use the Gibson sig model on that recording?

    I've seen him at Blues Alley with the Benedetto and it seems to not be as dark in person as on recordings. I mean, it's still pretty dark, but it's a bit more clear. The Live at Blues Alley recording sounds much different then when I was in the room hearing him.

    Edit: It must have been the Gibson on that Blues Alley record since he switched to Benedetto in 2011.
    Last edited by rmpmcdermott; 12-17-2018 at 06:00 PM.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamScott
    Agreed. Except for the "great" part.
    I don't like that tone much either but hey, I'm more into the Grant Green type of tone.

    Just goes to show that terms like 'great' or 'classic' are useless when it comes to discussions like this.

  24. #48

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    Oh, I don't remember how many times I already watched the clips from this concert.
    There's another one with Metheny on archtop (Bright size life):

  25. #49

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    In Jack Zucker's group of august professionals, Pasquale Grasso plays a Trenier, Paul Bollenback plays a Borys, Peter Mazza plays a Gibson Super V, Vic Juris plays a Borys, Peter Bernstein plays a Zeidler, Gilad Hekselman plays a Victor Baker, Mike Moreno plays a Marchione, Mark Whitfield plays a Marchione so, yeah, tone may well be in the fingers but these fellows are not immune to the charms of nice boutique guitars, too, just like the rest of us.

    Pasquale put his prize, a Benedetto Pat Martino, that he won in the Wes Montgomery Competition up for sale as soon as he got it so even Pasquale recognises tone is not always in the fingers but in the guitar, too, just like the rest of us lesser mortals. The Benedetto Pat Martino was not his tone.

    Ulf Wakenius may well tear it up with that Aria but he won't enjoy it very much if that is what he is restricted to play for the rest of his life. Isn't Ulf playing a Westville guitar now?

    I am not saying that the Aria is not a good guitar but a nicer guitar is a nicer guitar and nobody is immune to the charms of a nicer anything.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-17-2018 at 04:38 PM.

  26. #50

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    Thanks for the info Jack. The point about "proof tone is in the hands", I can't argue against. And, I don't think you're saying gear plays no part. I doubt anyone serious about this endeavor over a lifetime would. I like the clip of Jim Hall with Chico Hamilton. That's a good data point. Tone is multidimensional. I think there is some mind control too. I can't listen to Jim Hall or some others and not think mind-body connection, sometimes even hear other worldly sounds, like heavenly, even miraculous. At least, I've felt like that when observing some of the masters.