The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #326

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    Lawson,

    Yes. That Silvertone was a sweet amp.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Of course not, it's also the pick/flesh, the amp, the speaker inside the amp, any pedals one may use, etc.
    Then I clearly misunderstood you.

  4. #328

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    Perhaps I’m just triggered because I’ve watched too many YouTube videos of dad rockers oo’ong and aa’ing over 300 (to me) indistinguishable versions of overdrive pedals while they play the same insipid licks that they always do.

    But then, no one makes me watch them....

  5. #329

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    Even if I was making that argument (which I am not) Mark Knopfler would make any guitar sound special because he is a Geordie genius. We are talking about the semantics of TONE here.... Tone means about 50 different things... But if you can get a tone on an acoustic guitar, a sound people will want to listen?

    I mean don't call that tone if it pleases you, but I'm not going to say that Barry Harris doesn't get a distinctive and beautiful TONE whether he plays a Steinway or a Yamaha piano.

    To not use the word tone in that setting just seems like a marketing ploy to separate dad rockers from more of their money.

    And, TBH I don't really give a shit about Mark Knopfler (OK he's the reason I picked up guitar I don't mind admitting) or Claptons farty les paul fiasco because I am a JAZZ guitarist. I play a guitar into a clean amp.

    It's halfway between being an acoustic guitarist and an electric player. Broadly speaking the type of amp is important, but not that important, and the guitar isn't terribly important either because you can get a broadly similar sound out of any humbucker guitar, for instance.

    So much of the sound in this instance comes from how you play. People are always asking me if I have special pickups on my Telecaster because I get a good jazz tone out of it - the appropriate answer is of course, fuck off.

    A jazz player will be able to get a good jazz tone on pretty much any guitar because of the way they play the guitar. Rock players seem to find it a bit hard to get their heads around sometimes.

    I've had students radically improve their tone just by changing the position picking hand, and that's before we get into things like pick angle, angle of attack, whether or not you use a rest stroke and so and so forth...

    Take an extreme case, to make a Gypsy Jazz guitar sound like a GJ guitar you have to feed it with more energy per pick stroke than most electric players muster in a whole week of activity. It doesn't matter if you have a Da Ponte, if you tickle it, it will sound like a bad flat-top...

    If you are thinking in terms of changing the sound of the instrument like more modern players, you are on firmer ground. There is for instance the classic ploys of drowning yourself in delay, rolling off all the treble and using ghastly chorus (the last seems to have been more of a 1980s-90s phase).

    And while I dick around with pedals and stuff, cos I want to be one of the cool kids, that kind of thing doesn't define my core sound.

    But the really interesting thing about listening to Sco above is how much of his basic sound is on the acoustic guitar. I honestly wasn't expecting that.

    Anyway, the elephant in the room is .. the ROOM! No-one ever talks about that do they?

  6. #330
    i don't think it's necessary to denigrate rock/blues guitarists. Try playing through josh's setup and getting his tone. He's another example of tone being in the fingers.

    He uses .013s in standard tuning and really manhandles the strings like SRV did. Some random jazz dude that picks up his guitar and plays through his amp ain't gonna sound like him.


  7. #331

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

    That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?
    Segovia did it years ago.

    proof that guitar tone is in the hands...-segovia-jpg

  8. #332

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    Rock guitarists are quite sensitive souls, it's true, not given to absorbing a bit of good natured joshing. I apologise sincerely to all those easily wounded souls in the hope that they will heal one day.

    There are a lot of players in this area who are obsessed with gear, precisely because the gear is more complicated. Fing is, if I plug an ES175 with flats into a nice Fender amp and don't get a good jazz tone, it's quite apparent the fault lies with me lol. There's a lot more gear to get right to get a good rock sound, particularly drives and so on....

    But

    As you say - a great rock or blues player will have an incredible tone from - the fingers! And those fingers, and that set up, that attack on the guitar will WORK the amp too... Which is one reason I care not so much those supersaturated 80's shred tones (no I DO NOT include EVH in that category because he didn't use too much drive)... I like the 60s/70s when you are aware there is some dynamics going on... You could frame a little picture of SRV or the gent above under that statement.

    For me a history of blues guitarists will also include many players from the 1930s who got the most haunting sounds out of a beat up old box...

  9. #333

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    (Of course a good rock guitarist come back for any jazzer might be:

    'Well, you might think that about rock guitar players, but you know what we think about you?'

    'Yeah what?'

    'We don't think about you at all.')

  10. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

    That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?
    I do. I do all of my gigs except acoustic concerts on a Godin Multiac nylon 7-string, using both a multi-effects pedal and a Roland guitar synth. The way the guitar responds is a key element of my "tone" and style, and even with heavy effects from the electronics, I manage to sound like me.

  11. #335

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    Yeah, I have known about Ulf playing that cheap Aria Les Paul for years. And what about MVI ... he gets such a great tone from his ES 125, which is not exactly a high end guitar either. And from my own experience I think it makes not that much difference which of my guitars I am playing for the tone I get. I once did a blindfold test with me playing 7 guitars and most could not tell the difference. I could not have done it myself either I think.

    DB

  12. #336
    A bit tangential but...

    A friend of mine who's a famous jazz guitarist from NY and travels all over the world got a hand-made boutique guitar from one of the famous makers we all drool over. When I went to hear him recently, he was using a cheaper guitar and I asked him about it and he said the super expensive, hand made guitar doesn't have the mojo that his cheap, older guitar has. Everything is not as it seems apparently.

    OTOH, I love an old gibson and I've never played a guitar that sounds as good as my '63 kessel but i got it cheap. I have played tons of hand made boutique archtops that didn't sound anywhere near as good as the kessel. We all love to play nice things. It's inspiring when you love the instrument but I wrinkle my nose at the new crop of builders with their tone-woods, 10-tops and the customer picks everything from the stringers to the pickguard material. I'd rather have the luthier build me the absolute best guitar from the best sounding wood and not have me pick out the materials from a menu. That doesn't sound like a good recipe for success. I think that's one reason so many of these boutique instruments don't sound good, TBH...

  13. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    A bit tangential but...

    A friend of mine who's a famous jazz guitarist from NY and travels all over the world got a hand-made boutique guitar from one of the famous makers we all drool over. When I went to hear him recently, he was using a cheaper guitar and I asked him about it and he said the super expensive, hand made guitar doesn't have the mojo that his cheap, older guitar has. Everything is not as it seems apparently.

    OTOH, I love an old gibson and I've never played a guitar that sounds as good as my '63 kessel but i got it cheap. I have played tons of hand made boutique archtops that didn't sound anywhere near as good as the kessel. We all love to play nice things. It's inspiring when you love the instrument but I wrinkle my nose at the new crop of builders with their tone-woods, 10-tops and the customer picks everything from the stringers to the pickguard material. I'd rather have the luthier build me the absolute best guitar from the best sounding wood and not have me pick out the materials from a menu. That doesn't sound like a good recipe for success. I think that's one reason so many of these boutique instruments don't sound good, TBH...
    Jack you've actually said "out loud" something here that I've groped at and wondered about forever. Used to be, a maker of a guitar was chosen because he made guitars that played and sounded a certain way. You chose the maker because of the type of guitar they made. Now it seems like ordering a bespoke suit or something. My problem is that sometimes I think players don't exactly know everything they are going to want from an instrument, and specifying it so meticulously maybe the player is locking himself into a sound or style... but then the idea slips out of my head.

    I kind of like the idea that (a) my Gibson L5ces is empirically a wonderful guitar and (b) it is now my job to learn how to play her, make her sing. Rather than expect the guitar to come to me, I kind of like the idea that I grow into the guitar too.

    More incoherent rambling of mine, but somehow your paragraph here connected with something I've wondered about.

  14. #338

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    Reviving this thread by accident in a way.

    I was again watching the Kenny Burrell "Subway" concert on YouTube, I believe it's a series. After I looked to see others from the series and stumbled upon the Niels Pedersen episode. Thought I had maybe heard the name before, so I listened.....to the whole thing! As usual with YouTube, you plan to go on for 10 minutes and next thing you know an hour+ has gone by.

    Anyway, I didnt know the guitarist as I'm still learning about different players, but it was pretty obvious he is amazing. The guitar took me by surprise as it was undistinguished looking black solid body Les Paul style. What the hell do I know, but thought it was interesting, so I did a Google search for Ulf's guitar. Low and behold this thread pops up filled with all the debate and insight as well as the answer to my initial question: Aria Pro II "Les Paul"...the cheaper version to boot!

    Again, what do I know, but I preferred his sound on the Subway concert more than the sound or "tone" on the original clip in the first post of the thread. Anyway you slice it, guy knows what hell hes doing!

    What a great concert, here tis. ....

  15. #339

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    Wakenius is excellent. Don't think that the Aria isn't an outstanding guitar. It's surprisingly awesome.

  16. #340

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Wakenius is excellent. Don't think that the Aria isn't an outstanding guitar. It's surprisingly awesome.
    Oh, I dont doubt it at all!

  17. #341

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    Jim Mullen plays an Aria as well; into a AER compact 60.

    Somehow he manages to make this incredibly warm, singing tone. You’d think he was playing through a nice Fender.

  18. #342

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    Sublime! I’m going to look up that group


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  19. #343

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    The tone is great, except it is not a unique sound, where did I hear very similar? Also at least 50% of the pulls and hammers and slides and motifs are copied from PM. It is scary he plays this stuff sitting a few meter distance from PM....

  20. #344

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    Old thread. Still relevant. Jabberwocky noted a few years ago that you must have a guitar with good geometry, working and clean electronics, stability, and some durability to play music. Not all cheap guitars have this and some cannot be made into this even by a good tech. So you still need a bit of knowledge and brand names still matter. Random purchases on Alibaba will not always yield a good result.

    What you choose still matters in terms of tone. A hand carved archtop does not sound like a solid body and no guitar player can make them sound the same. Not unless you wash it all out with reverb and midrange to the point of losing all connection to anything but the pickup.

    Finally, really good guitars are different beasts. The way they resonate. The harmonic content. The way sound leaps from them. So there is still, regardless of tone in the hands, a lot of personal choice. And that's even before you get to style and the enjoyment of art and craft and nice things. A fine guitar may be expensive but it's a joy to play. And that does contribute to the experience for some of us.

  21. #345

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    It's proof that it sounds the way it sounds, no more and no less. Whether someone digs that tone is entirely subjective. I think Ulf is a great player. I saw him live a few years ago on that very guitar. Personally I thought his tone was mediocre at best but I don't go to gigs to hear amazing tone...when it happen it's a bonus (like Peter Bernstein on his very own modded amp...).

    I mean, if we're going to talk solid body jazz guitar tone, I much prefer Lorne Lofske, for example


    But any Peter Bernstein clip will have a more pleasing tone than either Ulf or Lorne, at least to my ears. Or, say, Anthony Wilson with Diana Krall at "Live in Paris".

    The video just has sounds. It's not "proof" of anything.

  22. #346

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    you should be in. But yeah, opinions like the guy saying the tone wasn't very good is one of the reasons pros happily contribute to my group. I don't let people throw stones at others playing, tone, etc.
    So you are posting a thread "proof that guitar tone is in the hands" on a discussion forum and you don't allow discussion about the tone? More power to you, sir.

  23. #347

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    Ulf was one of my first Jazz guitar influences as a kid.

    He and Peter Almqvist (RIP) had a duo called Guitars Unlimited back in the days. First time I heard them I was blown away, it was the album Acoustic Shokk.

    Still have it, still love it!

  24. #348

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I was shocked to find out that he used an Aria Pro II Les Paul with D'Addario Chrome .012, and a Lab Series amplifier!
    Maybe it goes to show that cheap guitars are very good guitars. In my experience they are. The shock only shows a bias toward expensive guitars.
    I don't want to start en Gibson vs. cheap copy's debate (or Fender vs. cheap copy's), but the truth is that a lot of cheap guitars are fine. Maybe not as pretty, but good players.

  25. #349

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    Arias are good guitars. Sure it’s been said above.

    But then, they are now more sought after now. I remember when you could pick up an Aria for beer money. Now, not so much.

    Quiet as it’s kept you will not find a better electric jazz guitar than a good Les Paul. I honestly think people only get the Gibsons with the F holes so horn players will book them.

  26. #350

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    Quote Originally Posted by guavajelly
    So you are posting a thread "proof that guitar tone is in the hands" on a discussion forum and you don't allow discussion about the tone? More power to you, sir.


    Lol .. yeah .. Anyways at least from now on whenever OP post something negative about this or that guitar (which happens quite often actually), we can from now on reply "What is the matter Jack, are your fingers not up to par??"