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  1. #301

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    My favourite personal example of the point that sometimes cheap guitars sound awesome (not that equipment 'doesn't matter') is:

    When I went touring ages ago with a swing band in Denmark and Sweden, and I was borrowing guitars on the road.

    The first couple of nights it was an 1950's ES-175
    The second stint it was a 3/4 Student Yamaha Classical Guitar with a 1/4" hole inexplicably bored into the side.

    Now guess which guitar the bandleader preferred? :-P

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  3. #302

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    Hmm? There are lots of things going on in this thread. There is the "tone of the instrument" and there is "the musician's tone." These are different things.

    IMO, nobody sounds the same as they cycle through different guitars, although they sound like themselves. For example, you would know it was Wes Montgomery or, say, Eric Clapton, as they picked up and played (in Wes' case) different Gibsons--a ES-175, a L-4Cw/pu, and a L-5CES--or (in Clapton's case) different Gibsons and Fenders--an Explorer, a ES-335, a Telecaster/Strat neck, and a Stratocaster. Each artist would sound like himself. However, the tone would vary--which it did on their recordings.

    I sound like "me" when I play the guitar. However, if I play a L-5CES, a Super-400CES, and a ES-175 into the same amp in the same room (Polytone MBII, for example), employing the same phrase, the guitars will sound different.

    Heck, I have done this with three ES-335 guitars set up identically and noticed differences in tone. Anyone could tell with eyes closed that it was me playing.

  4. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Hmm? There are lots of things going on in this thread. There is the "tone of the instrument" and there is "the musician's tone." These are different things.

    IMO, nobody sounds the same as they cycle through different guitars, although they sound like themselves. For example, you would know it was Wes Montgomery or, say, Eric Clapton, as they picked up and played (in Wes' case) different Gibsons--a ES-175, a L-4Cw/pu, and a L-5CES--or (in Clapton's case) different Gibsons and Fenders--an Explorer, a ES-335, a Telecaster/Strat neck, and a Stratocaster. Each artist would sound like himself. However, the tone would vary--which it did on their recordings.

    I sound like "me" when I play the guitar. However, if I play a L-5CES, a Super-400CES, and a ES-175 into the same amp in the same room (Polytone MBII, for example), employing the same phrase, the guitars will sound different.

    Heck, I have done this with three ES-335 guitars set up identically and noticed differences in tone. Anyone could tell with eyes closed that it was me playing.
    Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

    That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?

  5. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    I've never been one to subscribe to that theory. IMHO, I think what most consider to be tone, is in reality, phrasing.
    no, not at all...

  6. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

    That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?
    was doing that 20+ years ago.

  7. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ...Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?
    Check.

    Nylon string fretless guitar (Glissentar) through octave pedal to see if it sounds like an upright bass. Check.

    Trying rope core strings on electric guitars. Check.

    Experiments are fun.

  8. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?
    In the 60s I used to run a classical guitar with a contact pickup into a tube tape deck preamp to tape. (The Stones did this, IIRC, on Sympathy for the Devil, but with a steel string. )

    I thought the overdrive results were good.

  9. #308

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    to me 'tone' is usually what hacks strive for, instead of practicing.... (i'm not ruling myself out of that club btw)
    tone is what people spend tons of money on gear to attain, but it's not attainable, because we should be in the moment enjoying the sound we are making and being in tune with it.... when people say a player has 'great tone' it means nothing, because, it's the playing that makes them sound amazing... then they go spend $5000 on a guitar, and realize that it doesn't give them 'tone'
    it's like a zen koan, only not englightening

  10. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Yes.
    after 45 years of playing , performing and teaching I think I have pretty good idea about the difference between phrasing and tone.

  11. #310

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    Hey, patshep, that sounds about right.

  12. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by patshep
    to me 'tone' is usually what hacks strive for, instead of practicing.... (i'm not ruling myself out of that club btw)
    tone is what people spend tons of money on gear to attain, but it's not attainable, because we should be in the moment enjoying the sound we are making and being in tune with it.... when people say a player has 'great tone' it means nothing, because, it's the playing that makes them sound amazing... then they go spend $5000 on a guitar, and realize that it doesn't give them 'tone'
    it's like a zen koan, only not englightening
    The endless tone quest helps the music instrument industry though I wished it supported musicians more (maybe in addition to teaching music, professional musicians should offer "tone making" classes). For instance, I am curious how well those people who sell digital tone patches and IRs do. I woul rather spend my money on a score sheet than on a digital patch. My cynical guess is that someone who does transcriptions makes less than someone who tweaks Helix, AxeFx etc and sells the patches they configured.

  13. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by medblues
    The endless tone quest helps the music instrument industry though I wished it supported musicians more (maybe in addition to teaching music, professional musicians should offer "tone making" classes). For instance, I am curious how well those people who sell digital tone patches and IRs do. I woul rather spend my money on a score sheet than on a digital patch. My cynical guess is that someone who does transcriptions makes less than someone who tweaks Helix, AxeFx etc and sells the patches they configured.

    It's a lot easier to buy new toys (for some) than put a load of hard work in..

  14. #313
    it's also easier to justify buying toys when you tell yourself that you are continually improving your tone. Improving your tone by practicing is harder and doesn't have the instant gratification. I think of lot of what I see on threads like this are people attempting to justify the gear purchases they make by continually insisting that gear is more important than the player when it comes to tone.

  15. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    it's also easier to justify buying toys when you tell yourself that you are continually improving your tone. Improving your tone by practicing is harder and doesn't have the instant gratification. I think of lot of what I see on threads like this are people attempting to justify the gear purchases they make by continually insisting that gear is more important than the player when it comes to tone.
    I have seen great players make lousy gear sound great and I have also seen lousy players make great gear sound terrible.

    It is the Indian, not the arrow, Tonto.

  16. #315
    and I love gear more than most so I'm not saying people shouldn't be pumped or motivated to practice more by having more gear but if the new gear spends more time posed on the couch than in your hands, that it probably isn't helping you get better tone.

  17. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    after 45 years of playing , performing and teaching I think I have pretty good idea about the difference between phrasing and tone.
    Likewise for me (with the exception of teaching).

    To use Greentone's example; you can't tell me that Clapton's tone with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, where he used a Les Paul and Marshall is the same as his tone using a Strat and a Fender. It's just not possible. So, what is it then? Now, you may like his tone with either/or, or both and recognize it, but he sounds like "Clapton" because of the way he plays, i.e. his phrasing. Or if you wish, the way he expresses himself.

  18. #317

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Likewise for me (with the exception of teaching).

    To use Greentone's example; you can't tell me that Clapton's tone with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, where he used a Les Paul and Marshall is the same as his tone using a Strat and a Fender. It's just not possible. So, what is it then? Now, you may like his tone with either/or, or both and recognize it, but he sounds like "Clapton" because of the way he plays, i.e. his phrasing.
    Let's see:






  19. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by medblues
    Let's see:





    You seriously think that the tone is the same? It's not, at least to my ears. A Strat does not sound like a Les Paul and a Marshall does not sound like a Fender. He sounds like Eric Clapton because he is Eric Clapton and it's because of the way he plays.

    We all have our opinions, which we are entitled to, so agree to disagree.



  20. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Likewise for me (with the exception of teaching).

    To use Greentone's example; you can't tell me that Clapton's tone with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, where he used a Les Paul and Marshall is the same as his tone using a Strat and a Fender. It's just not possible. So, what is it then? Now, you may like his tone with either/or, or both and recognize it, but he sounds like "Clapton" because of the way he plays, i.e. his phrasing. Or if you wish, the way he expresses himself.
    I think you're confused. Nobody said that equipment doesn't make any difference. That is just something you projected upon this conversation.

    Obviously the sound of a sears guitar plugged into a sears amp is going to sound different than an L5 plugged into a '60s twin. BIG !@#$ DUH!

    Folks don't see the forest for the trees. The point is that a good player can get a good tone out of any decent setup. Not that you can make a tele with .008s sound like a '50s L5.

    Aren't you guys jazz players? How can you play jazz and then get so stuck on literal interpretations of language?

    And that has nothing to do with phrasing. Oy...

  21. #320

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    OK, so someone on this thread must have said players will sound the same regardless of what instrument they play.

    Not sure who that was, care to fill me in? Seems like a very black and white position that is impossible to defend in practice.

    The writing off of everything that isn't the sound of the instrument and the amp as 'phrasing' is also a very black and white position, that I think is easily debunked by anyone with any broad experience of music.

    It's a position that seems to me unlikely to be held by an acoustic player.

    BTW am I the only one who HATES the sound of that driven Fender amp with the "Lucy" Les Paul in the last Clapton video? Gadzooks it sounds awful.

  22. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I think you're confused. Nobody said that equipment doesn't make any difference. That is just something you projected upon this conversation.

    Obviously the sound of a sears guitar plugged into a sears amp is going to sound different than an L5 plugged into a '60s twin. BIG !@#$ DUH!

    Folks don't see the forest for the trees. The point is that a good player can get a good tone out of any decent setup. Not that you can make a tele with .008s sound like a '50s L5.

    Aren't you guys jazz players? How can you play jazz and then get so stuck on literal interpretations of language?

    And that has nothing to do with phrasing. Oy...
    Maybe so, but I’m not the one who said that equipment does/doesn’t make a difference initially. I am of the opinion that “Tone” is not in your hands as the title of your thread suggests. A player sounds like a player because of the way they express their musical thoughts, i.e. the notes they choose and how they choose to use(phrase) them. So yes, to that extent, I agree with you that it’s the player. Sticking with the Clapton example, in the videos that medblues posted, I could’ve been in that room with Clapton and as soon as he put down either of those guitars, I could’ve picked them up and played them through the same amp. The equipment is the same, hence, the tone is the same, but I’m not going to sound like him because I don’t play (nor could I) like him. The same with Ulf Wakenius as you mention when you started this thread.

    That’s the only I’m saying, trying(apparently failing miserably too) to express.

  23. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, so someone on this thread must have said players will sound the same regardless of what instrument they play.

    Not sure who that was, care to fill me in? Seems like a very black and white position that is impossible to defend in practice.

    The writing off of everything that isn't the sound of the instrument and the amp as 'phrasing' is also a very black and white position, that I think is easily debunked by anyone with any broad experience of music.

    It's a position that seems to me unlikely to be held by an acoustic player.

    BTW am I the only one who HATES the sound of that driven Fender amp with the "Lucy" Les Paul in the last Clapton video? Gadzooks it sounds awful.
    That’s not what I’m saying (see my response above) and for you to imply that my position on this is due to a lack of a “broad experience of music.” is rather presumptious and in reality, has no basis in fact considering you don’t know me and you have no idea how broad or narrow my “experience of music” is.

    And I agree with you, that amp with “Lucy” sounded terrible!

  24. #323

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    That’s not what I’m saying (see my response above) and for you to imply that my position on this is due to a lack of a “broad experience of music.” is rather presumptious and in reality, has no basis in fact considering you don’t know me and you have no idea how broad or narrow my “experience of music” is.

    And I agree with you, that amp with “Lucy” sounded terrible!
    So, you don't think that 'tone' just means the instrument and everything else is 'phrasing'?

  25. #324

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I think you're confused. Nobody said that equipment doesn't make any difference. That is just something you projected upon this conversation.

    Obviously the sound of a sears guitar plugged into a sears amp is going to sound different than an L5 plugged into a '60s twin. BIG !@#$ DUH!

    ...
    But gosh... I wish I had that old Sears tube amp I had as a teenager. The Silvertone 1484 head+2x12 cab is kinda popular in a crazy sort of way among vintage amp fans.
    Last edited by lawson-stone; 02-11-2019 at 03:28 PM.

  26. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So, you don't think that 'tone' just means the instrument and everything else is 'phrasing'?
    Of course not, it's also the pick/flesh, the amp, the speaker inside the amp, any pedals one may use, etc.

  27. #326

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    Lawson,

    Yes. That Silvertone was a sweet amp.

  28. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Of course not, it's also the pick/flesh, the amp, the speaker inside the amp, any pedals one may use, etc.
    Then I clearly misunderstood you.

  29. #328

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    Perhaps I’m just triggered because I’ve watched too many YouTube videos of dad rockers oo’ong and aa’ing over 300 (to me) indistinguishable versions of overdrive pedals while they play the same insipid licks that they always do.

    But then, no one makes me watch them....

  30. #329

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Perhaps I’m just triggered because I’ve watched too many YouTube videos of dad rockers oo’ong and aa’ing over 300 (to me) indistinguishable versions of overdrive pedals while they play the same insipid licks that they always do.

    But then, no one makes me watch them....

    That is the usual internet tone quest. My favorite is the "Why can't I sound like xxx" threads with 50 replies focusing on guitars, amps and pedals, when the correct answer probably is change the angle of your pick and move closer to the bridge/neck from where your hand is now.


    Quote Originally Posted by patshep
    then they go spend $5000 on a guitar, and realize that it doesn't give them 'tone'
    it's like a zen koan, only not englightening

    Again an internet thing ... Diss on the ones that have the means to spend money on gear. But c'mon .. plugging into my 4k large tubeamp and just playing a single loud but clean note with a bit of vibrato is a glorious thing

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, so someone on this thread must have said players will sound the same regardless of what instrument they play.

    Not sure who that was, care to fill me in? Seems like a very black and white position that is impossible to defend in practice.

    The writing off of everything that isn't the sound of the instrument and the amp as 'phrasing' is also a very black and white position, that I think is easily debunked by anyone with any broad experience of music.

    It's a position that seems to me unlikely to be held by an acoustic player.

    BTW am I the only one who HATES the sound of that driven Fender amp with the "Lucy" Les Paul in the last Clapton video? Gadzooks it sounds awful.
    LOL that Lucy vid is fun ... You can clearly see that Clapton is struggling and doesn't like a bit what he hears

    But anyways tone and player. Some player, same unique picking technique, the same personality .. but same tone?





    Often in these kinds of discussions it is ignore that the 'tone' part of the rig influences your playing. If you have a sonically huge sound with lots of mids and sustain that takes up a lot of space then you're more likely to play differently than if you have a more scooped sound with little mids and a quick decay on your notes. No amount of 'fingers' is going to make your ES175 going into a polytone sound like a Les Paul into a cranked Plexi
    Last edited by Lobomov; 02-11-2019 at 05:59 AM.

  31. #330

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    Even if I was making that argument (which I am not) Mark Knopfler would make any guitar sound special because he is a Geordie genius. We are talking about the semantics of TONE here.... Tone means about 50 different things... But if you can get a tone on an acoustic guitar, a sound people will want to listen?

    I mean don't call that tone if it pleases you, but I'm not going to say that Barry Harris doesn't get a distinctive and beautiful TONE whether he plays a Steinway or a Yamaha piano.

    To not use the word tone in that setting just seems like a marketing ploy to separate dad rockers from more of their money.

    And, TBH I don't really give a shit about Mark Knopfler (OK he's the reason I picked up guitar I don't mind admitting) or Claptons farty les paul fiasco because I am a JAZZ guitarist. I play a guitar into a clean amp.

    It's halfway between being an acoustic guitarist and an electric player. Broadly speaking the type of amp is important, but not that important, and the guitar isn't terribly important either because you can get a broadly similar sound out of any humbucker guitar, for instance.

    So much of the sound in this instance comes from how you play. People are always asking me if I have special pickups on my Telecaster because I get a good jazz tone out of it - the appropriate answer is of course, fuck off.

    A jazz player will be able to get a good jazz tone on pretty much any guitar because of the way they play the guitar. Rock players seem to find it a bit hard to get their heads around sometimes.

    I've had students radically improve their tone just by changing the position picking hand, and that's before we get into things like pick angle, angle of attack, whether or not you use a rest stroke and so and so forth...

    Take an extreme case, to make a Gypsy Jazz guitar sound like a GJ guitar you have to feed it with more energy per pick stroke than most electric players muster in a whole week of activity. It doesn't matter if you have a Da Ponte, if you tickle it, it will sound like a bad flat-top...

    If you are thinking in terms of changing the sound of the instrument like more modern players, you are on firmer ground. There is for instance the classic ploys of drowning yourself in delay, rolling off all the treble and using ghastly chorus (the last seems to have been more of a 1980s-90s phase).

    And while I dick around with pedals and stuff, cos I want to be one of the cool kids, that kind of thing doesn't define my core sound.

    But the really interesting thing about listening to Sco above is how much of his basic sound is on the acoustic guitar. I honestly wasn't expecting that.

    Anyway, the elephant in the room is .. the ROOM! No-one ever talks about that do they?

  32. #331
    i don't think it's necessary to denigrate rock/blues guitarists. Try playing through josh's setup and getting his tone. He's another example of tone being in the fingers.

    He uses .013s in standard tuning and really manhandles the strings like SRV did. Some random jazz dude that picks up his guitar and plays through his amp ain't gonna sound like him.


  33. #332

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

    That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?
    Segovia did it years ago.

    proof that guitar tone is in the hands...-segovia-jpg

  34. #333

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    Rock guitarists are quite sensitive souls, it's true, not given to absorbing a bit of good natured joshing. I apologise sincerely to all those easily wounded souls in the hope that they will heal one day.

    There are a lot of players in this area who are obsessed with gear, precisely because the gear is more complicated. Fing is, if I plug an ES175 with flats into a nice Fender amp and don't get a good jazz tone, it's quite apparent the fault lies with me lol. There's a lot more gear to get right to get a good rock sound, particularly drives and so on....

    But

    As you say - a great rock or blues player will have an incredible tone from - the fingers! And those fingers, and that set up, that attack on the guitar will WORK the amp too... Which is one reason I care not so much those supersaturated 80's shred tones (no I DO NOT include EVH in that category because he didn't use too much drive)... I like the 60s/70s when you are aware there is some dynamics going on... You could frame a little picture of SRV or the gent above under that statement.

    For me a history of blues guitarists will also include many players from the 1930s who got the most haunting sounds out of a beat up old box...

  35. #334

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    (Of course a good rock guitarist come back for any jazzer might be:

    'Well, you might think that about rock guitar players, but you know what we think about you?'

    'Yeah what?'

    'We don't think about you at all.')

  36. #335

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    Nevermind
    Last edited by Lobomov; 02-11-2019 at 10:18 AM.

  37. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Quite. It’s kind of a holistic thing. The striving for the right gear is more alchemical.

    That said the modern guitar scene is fantastically unimaginative when it comes to gear. Anyone put a nylon string through a drive pedal for instance?
    I do. I do all of my gigs except acoustic concerts on a Godin Multiac nylon 7-string, using both a multi-effects pedal and a Roland guitar synth. The way the guitar responds is a key element of my "tone" and style, and even with heavy effects from the electronics, I manage to sound like me.

  38. #337

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    Yeah, I have known about Ulf playing that cheap Aria Les Paul for years. And what about MVI ... he gets such a great tone from his ES 125, which is not exactly a high end guitar either. And from my own experience I think it makes not that much difference which of my guitars I am playing for the tone I get. I once did a blindfold test with me playing 7 guitars and most could not tell the difference. I could not have done it myself either I think.

    DB

  39. #338
    A bit tangential but...

    A friend of mine who's a famous jazz guitarist from NY and travels all over the world got a hand-made boutique guitar from one of the famous makers we all drool over. When I went to hear him recently, he was using a cheaper guitar and I asked him about it and he said the super expensive, hand made guitar doesn't have the mojo that his cheap, older guitar has. Everything is not as it seems apparently.

    OTOH, I love an old gibson and I've never played a guitar that sounds as good as my '63 kessel but i got it cheap. I have played tons of hand made boutique archtops that didn't sound anywhere near as good as the kessel. We all love to play nice things. It's inspiring when you love the instrument but I wrinkle my nose at the new crop of builders with their tone-woods, 10-tops and the customer picks everything from the stringers to the pickguard material. I'd rather have the luthier build me the absolute best guitar from the best sounding wood and not have me pick out the materials from a menu. That doesn't sound like a good recipe for success. I think that's one reason so many of these boutique instruments don't sound good, TBH...

  40. #339

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    A bit tangential but...

    A friend of mine who's a famous jazz guitarist from NY and travels all over the world got a hand-made boutique guitar from one of the famous makers we all drool over. When I went to hear him recently, he was using a cheaper guitar and I asked him about it and he said the super expensive, hand made guitar doesn't have the mojo that his cheap, older guitar has. Everything is not as it seems apparently.

    OTOH, I love an old gibson and I've never played a guitar that sounds as good as my '63 kessel but i got it cheap. I have played tons of hand made boutique archtops that didn't sound anywhere near as good as the kessel. We all love to play nice things. It's inspiring when you love the instrument but I wrinkle my nose at the new crop of builders with their tone-woods, 10-tops and the customer picks everything from the stringers to the pickguard material. I'd rather have the luthier build me the absolute best guitar from the best sounding wood and not have me pick out the materials from a menu. That doesn't sound like a good recipe for success. I think that's one reason so many of these boutique instruments don't sound good, TBH...
    Jack you've actually said "out loud" something here that I've groped at and wondered about forever. Used to be, a maker of a guitar was chosen because he made guitars that played and sounded a certain way. You chose the maker because of the type of guitar they made. Now it seems like ordering a bespoke suit or something. My problem is that sometimes I think players don't exactly know everything they are going to want from an instrument, and specifying it so meticulously maybe the player is locking himself into a sound or style... but then the idea slips out of my head.

    I kind of like the idea that (a) my Gibson L5ces is empirically a wonderful guitar and (b) it is now my job to learn how to play her, make her sing. Rather than expect the guitar to come to me, I kind of like the idea that I grow into the guitar too.

    More incoherent rambling of mine, but somehow your paragraph here connected with something I've wondered about.

  41. #340

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    Reviving this thread by accident in a way.

    I was again watching the Kenny Burrell "Subway" concert on YouTube, I believe it's a series. After I looked to see others from the series and stumbled upon the Niels Pedersen episode. Thought I had maybe heard the name before, so I listened.....to the whole thing! As usual with YouTube, you plan to go on for 10 minutes and next thing you know an hour+ has gone by.

    Anyway, I didnt know the guitarist as I'm still learning about different players, but it was pretty obvious he is amazing. The guitar took me by surprise as it was undistinguished looking black solid body Les Paul style. What the hell do I know, but thought it was interesting, so I did a Google search for Ulf's guitar. Low and behold this thread pops up filled with all the debate and insight as well as the answer to my initial question: Aria Pro II "Les Paul"...the cheaper version to boot!

    Again, what do I know, but I preferred his sound on the Subway concert more than the sound or "tone" on the original clip in the first post of the thread. Anyway you slice it, guy knows what hell hes doing!

    What a great concert, here tis. ....

  42. #341

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    Wakenius is excellent. Don't think that the Aria isn't an outstanding guitar. It's surprisingly awesome.

  43. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Wakenius is excellent. Don't think that the Aria isn't an outstanding guitar. It's surprisingly awesome.
    Oh, I dont doubt it at all!

  44. #343

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    Jim Mullen plays an Aria as well; into a AER compact 60.

    Somehow he manages to make this incredibly warm, singing tone. You’d think he was playing through a nice Fender.

  45. #344

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    Sublime! I’m going to look up that group


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  46. #345

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    The tone is great, except it is not a unique sound, where did I hear very similar? Also at least 50% of the pulls and hammers and slides and motifs are copied from PM. It is scary he plays this stuff sitting a few meter distance from PM....

  47. #346

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    Old thread. Still relevant. Jabberwocky noted a few years ago that you must have a guitar with good geometry, working and clean electronics, stability, and some durability to play music. Not all cheap guitars have this and some cannot be made into this even by a good tech. So you still need a bit of knowledge and brand names still matter. Random purchases on Alibaba will not always yield a good result.

    What you choose still matters in terms of tone. A hand carved archtop does not sound like a solid body and no guitar player can make them sound the same. Not unless you wash it all out with reverb and midrange to the point of losing all connection to anything but the pickup.

    Finally, really good guitars are different beasts. The way they resonate. The harmonic content. The way sound leaps from them. So there is still, regardless of tone in the hands, a lot of personal choice. And that's even before you get to style and the enjoyment of art and craft and nice things. A fine guitar may be expensive but it's a joy to play. And that does contribute to the experience for some of us.

  48. #347

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    It's proof that it sounds the way it sounds, no more and no less. Whether someone digs that tone is entirely subjective. I think Ulf is a great player. I saw him live a few years ago on that very guitar. Personally I thought his tone was mediocre at best but I don't go to gigs to hear amazing tone...when it happen it's a bonus (like Peter Bernstein on his very own modded amp...).

    I mean, if we're going to talk solid body jazz guitar tone, I much prefer Lorne Lofske, for example


    But any Peter Bernstein clip will have a more pleasing tone than either Ulf or Lorne, at least to my ears. Or, say, Anthony Wilson with Diana Krall at "Live in Paris".

    The video just has sounds. It's not "proof" of anything.

  49. #348

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    you should be in. But yeah, opinions like the guy saying the tone wasn't very good is one of the reasons pros happily contribute to my group. I don't let people throw stones at others playing, tone, etc.
    So you are posting a thread "proof that guitar tone is in the hands" on a discussion forum and you don't allow discussion about the tone? More power to you, sir.

  50. #349

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    Ulf was one of my first Jazz guitar influences as a kid.

    He and Peter Almqvist (RIP) had a duo called Guitars Unlimited back in the days. First time I heard them I was blown away, it was the album Acoustic Shokk.

    Still have it, still love it!

  51. #350

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I was shocked to find out that he used an Aria Pro II Les Paul with D'Addario Chrome .012, and a Lab Series amplifier!
    Maybe it goes to show that cheap guitars are very good guitars. In my experience they are. The shock only shows a bias toward expensive guitars.
    I don't want to start en Gibson vs. cheap copy's debate (or Fender vs. cheap copy's), but the truth is that a lot of cheap guitars are fine. Maybe not as pretty, but good players.