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Yes, I was the lead player as well as most of the other guitar parts. I’m not on the first album, which was released only on vinyl, so if you have CDs, I’m on those (“Window to the Sea”, and “The Waltz King”). The guitar I used for most of the 10 years I played with them was a Favino, a Maccaferri-style gypsy guitar with an oval sound-hole. The leader of the band had the guitar made—and he paid for it—for the guitar player who preceded me, Mike Gallaher (great player), so it was the property of the band.
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12-28-2018 01:54 PM
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I owned an oval hole Favino for several years that I sold to Doug Martin. Cafe Noir had a unique sound. I prefer American Gypsy jazz that does not slavishly imitate early Django. We need to leave that to the Gypsies. They do it better than we do in any case.
Originally Posted by El Fundo
I have The Waltz King and the one simply entitled Cafe Noir, both on CD.
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Okay, then their first album did get released on CD. Kim Platko is the guitar player on that one. The Waltz King is my favorite of the two I played on. And yes, we departed more and more gradually from the Gypsy jazz style over the years. And I never pretended to be Django, lol! All I could do was be myself. After all, we were mere American mortals Originally Posted by Stringswinger
It’s interesting to listen to those recordings after all these years. I can listen more objectively and I sort of became a fan of the band.
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Yikes. I used to do amateur gigs, parties at friends homes, office parties, etc. solo guitar. I could load my Polytone Minibrute II, bag of necessary junk, and archtop in a gig bag onto one rolling luggage carrier. Now at 63, that 12" Polytone looks huge and feels heavy, so I've cultivated a love for 8" speakers! Originally Posted by El Fundo
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Interesting thread, and really ... it doesn't seem the tone is "in the hands" so much as it is "in the ears".
One wants to hear a certain sound, and adapts as necessary to produce as close as possible as one can to that ... sound.
Having an ability to modify the hands, control amp settings ... all of that is part of controlling what one "hears".
A good friend was an amazing lounge singer years back. Very experienced in PA systems and such also. Very proud of being able to set HIS sound in whatever club he and his pianist/tenor backing voice were in.
But every night, really, as people sat in different places or whatever, it needed tweaking. We'd go to hear them and at break he'd come sit and chat a moment with us. My ears ... hear. Apparently, better than most.
So I'd tell him the piano's highs were a bit too much and interfering with his vocal overtones and his mic was needing a bit more in the low mids. He'd tell me I was crazy.
A few songs into the next set, suddenly ... the sound was "clear" again. Next break, I'd twit him about it, ha, changed to my suggestions, didn't ya? He tended to want to argue that they shouldn't have worked.
After 4-5 years he gave up. Come sit and say, ok ... what? I'd tell him, he'd just speak into his mic telling his pianist to do what I'd told him. Shake his head and walk off.
I don't have the tech knowledge of so many people working their big sound systems. But I can tell you what needs changing or give a couple things to do, and from listening to the results give what needs changing to clear up the sound.
It's natural to me. It seems obvious. But clearly it isn't to other ear/brain combinations.
Mind you, my abilities on guitar simply are not up to my ear's capabilities. Wish they were! Nor my voice either.
But ... *sounds* ... are something magical to my brain. Listening to really beautifully reproduced human voices like major opera singers ... with every orchestra instrument sounding correct also ... is so incredibly pleasurable. Physically so.
Generally somewhat ok reproduced sound ... meh. Better than nothing. But ... never the same. Why I built my own design tower speakers.
Neil
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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"But beyond that I think the gear isn't as important as how you use it ."
THIS I agree with - quote from Jack Z at beginning of thread.
He's right again.
He's NOT talking about' Magic Fingers' but obviously having some playing ability but knowing how to use equipment Guitars ,etc.
I heard the Clip - the coolest thing was - we get to hear an excellent or great Jazz Improviser/Player playing Jazz over a strummed Folk Guitar type accompaniment BUT it still has interesting changes .
Nice tone .
Excellent or great Player - HOWEVER no magic fingers needed for that tone from that Guitar.
I misunderstood by going from the thread title ( click bait - lol ) instead of what he said.
Many of you are probably making the same mistake.
I maintain that many people who picked up that Aria Guitar through his Rig could get a similar tone- playing a Solo THAT cool a different story- just Tone .
Conversely- If most Violinists play Hilary Hahn's Violin- aside from the virtuosity- they won't sound the same on 3 notes in a row.
I once had a H-S-H Guitar with three 3 way switches one for each PU.
Passive electronics but over 60 combinations from thin to fat solidbody tones.
One setting sounded a lot like Richenbacher = Roger McGuinn just hit the note and let it ring- no magic fingers needed. A non player could do 1 note .
To play one note like Larry Carlton you will need a near perfect vibrato - so tougher .
To play the backwards Guitar Solo in Hendrix - ' Are You Experienced ' like Eric Johnson- I saw a Video where he did it mostly with his fingers ( no reverse delay )
- you might need a little magic fingers for that- AND knowing where to stand in front of the too loud Amp...lol.
I mean I think of Jazz Guitarists as Masters of Harmony/substitution/ playing over changes/ playing great with no rehearsal / etc etc Tonemeisters? - they often do have beautiful tones- some of you Guys included...
But you didn't need 5, 10, 20, 40 thousand hours to get your Tone ( probably ) ..it's that 'Other' stuff .
It's almost hard to get a bad tone from the Neck PU on a 175 that's in tune right ?
Now- IF you want to talk about picking every note on a 175 but STILL getting a nearly legato sound like Kriesberg on his intro to 'Summertime ' .
Most people can't do that picking every note ( because you need to really control pick depth into the string and only go about 1 millimeter or less down - barely breaking the plane of the strings )- or you get too much attack.
Not 'magic 'but super light picking- nearly legato. Aside from the chops most Jazzers - used to articulating will not be able to do it - without a lot of practice.
In these regards - the Legato Tone is tied to precision technique ...
I don't buy that you have to be a Zen Buddhist Guitar Master and play from out of your body - to turn a tone knob down to 5 on the neck PU ...etc etc
..Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-29-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Yes that’s true. Legato playing is always very fast, even when it’s slow. It’s all about the accuracy of the note changes.
Incidentally doesn’t JK play a Norlin 175?
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Wow. That's a good point...
Re- legato..even slow tempo the pick can't be in contact with the string a real long time probably or scrape scrape ...
And of course (I have 0 experience with knife picking /Benson picking) - but Players like Adam Rogers have less noise on legato picking- seems like he does some beautiful arpeggios on one video almost completely legato but using his ultra precise right hand you don't hear the pick- just the notes .
Adam Rogers IS also a good example of 'tone is in the fingers' though- disproving or transcending what I said above ...
I don't want to Deify these Guys - and put them totally out of reach for the rest of us - but Guitar Genius / Guitar Greats -I can live with that slight hyperbole.Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-01-2019 at 06:04 PM.
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Indeed he does .. with a maple neck Originally Posted by christianm77
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If that’s the tone he wants (and he does vary it in different parts of the solo) than “good” or “bad” or any other adjective for that matter is irrelevant with players of this caliber.
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I think it’s more that Peter thought that particular L5 was a bit of a dog. Perhaps if he’d had a better L5 he might be playing it still. Originally Posted by El Fundo
But obviously that got him looking around.
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Some proof in support of the thesis that tone is not only in the hands…
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Tone is in the hands, for sure. When you carry your gear from the vehicle to the venue (and tear down at the gig's end), your tone is most certainly in your hands. If you carry a big amp you have a bigger tone in your hands.
I still occasionally carry a Fender 5f6a Bassman or a Lab Series L-5 to the gig. Ugh! Still, that's big tone in my hands. Mostly, though, it's a Polytone Mini Brute or a Fender 5e3 Deluxe. Smaller tone, but still plenty of tone.
It all still has to go into the truck at the end of the night. The hands are okay, but the back gets sore.
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Jerry Lee Lewis in that clip just looks... tired. Like he's just phoning it in. Originally Posted by gcb
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Totally explains my tone problem... Originally Posted by Greentone
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My tone is bigger than yours!
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Proof that tone is in the hands - but within reason.
Same Player, different day , different Guitar.
On the Metheny clip with Metheny on Acoustic... time ,tone, touch and all the note choices nearly perfect.
Here we have same fingers, excellent chops , blowing Fusion type soloing but less stellar tones less 'near perfect' playing.
'Tone is in the Fingers' - with some caveats , limitations etc.
Just presented for balance.
This thread can go on forever ...and there is no precise line of definition for this.
Eric Johnson has some of the most magical fingers for Tone - BUT he is also very knowledgeable about Amps , and Signal Chain .
Even he can not get his ' Cliffs of Dover ' singing sweet overdrive Tone plugging straight into a Fender Champ ( with a couple of pedals , yes ).
Larry Carlton - can get some of his magic tones right into a Princeton - (Hill Street Blues - theme ) but obviously not the overdrive ones...
So yeah, playing ability and gear and know how to use it ...in various combinations and percentages.
We can go forever , trying to define this -where the lines are drawn....Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-07-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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Cool looking Super! Originally Posted by pauln
My tone is bigger than yours! ...
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Actually, a lot of tone _isn't_ in the hands.
I thought that Clapton and Santana, for example, exhibited excellent tone in their 1960s bands. Listen to "Live Cream" or Santana at Woodstock. In the 70s-80s, Clapton seemed to lose his way. His tone sounded much more processed and unexceptional. Santana, though, really fell off the cliff. IMO, his tone has gotten VERY processed sounding. Is it just my ear, or is Santana using lots of compression these days? It seems that when he picks it's just a gate to turn on a processed tone that stops when he lifts his fretting finger. ON-TONE-OFF. There is no dynamic envelope to it. This is dramatically different from the way Santana played in the 60s.
I guess that what I would suggest is that "tone in hands" is sort of inversely proportionate to the stuff in the signal chain other than guitar-cable-amp.
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Originally Posted by Greentone
Yes, but it always starts with the hands... Consider Joe Pass's "Vituoso", worst tone ever, but still very expressive playing. Like I said in an earlier post, the great players could sound listenable, even on an unplugged solid body! (not that Joe played one on that record, but you know what I mean). If we had a DI split of his playing that day, we could re-amp it through a great amp dialled up to sound great with appropriate mic placement and a little post eq and reverb maybe, and you would have a transformed effect on the listener. Just as you would if you heard Hendrix's DI signal only, without his amp sound. The expression, attack and attitude would still be there, but the result on the listener would be a long way off his juiced up sound!
All of which says there's more to the sound than just the fingers, naturally, but it has gotta start there to be great. I often try to imagine what various guitar players playing would sound like if we could hear them unplugged (or with just a DI signal), and have come to realise that I would still find the great players listenable. Imagine CC, Django, Wes, Martino, GB unplugged - still wonderful. Metheny? hmm... not so much!
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Princeplanet,
Yes. Joe Pass sounds so expressive on Virtuoso because it's just hands/guitar/mic.
If he played through Santana's modern rig, much of that expression would be lost.
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I think it's probably most accurate to say that tone is in the player, not the gear. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Re: Carlton, many of his best known overdriven solos (e.g., the stuff on the Royal Scam and a bunch of other Steely Dan stuff) were just the 335 into a tweed Deluxe. I've seen him live with strats, the Valley Arts signature model, 335's, Les Pauls, Les Paul Specials, even a Guild M75, through different Dumbles, tweed Fenders, other amps, with effects, straight into the amp. He sounds remarkably similar on every rig. He has a sound in his head. He knows how to get it out of many different rigs. It's a mix of ears, touch, and knowledge of gear. I think of "tone is in the fingers" as a shorthand for that. I don't think anybody really thinks it means literally just a player's hands.
John
. He sounds like Larry Carlton through anything.
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Well, Plexis and similar amps are an amazing sound, I love Johnny Macs sound from this era too.... but the tides of fashion are strange. Originally Posted by Greentone
Clapton’s tone these days through the Fenders is pretty fantastic I must say. Very different from Cream, but you get that vibrato and that phasing, you know who it is one note.
I agree the Santana. Never a fan of heavy Mesa type drive.
But those old amps respond so well to the touch. Warts and all. They represent how you play.
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Metheny sounds pretty great on acoustic iirc. I think there’s a Gonzalo Rubalcaba album? Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yes, but it always starts with the hands... Consider Joe Pass's "Vituoso", worst tone ever, but still very expressive playing. Like I said in an earlier post, the great players could sound listenable, even on an unplugged solid body! (not that Joe played one on that record, but you know what I mean). If we had a DI split of his playing that day, we could re-amp it through a great amp dialled up to sound great with appropriate mic placement and a little post eq and reverb maybe, and you would have a transformed effect on the listener. Just as you would if you heard Hendrix's DI signal only, without his amp sound. The expression, attack and attitude would still be there, but the result on the listener would be a long way off his juiced up sound!
All of which says there's more to the sound than just the fingers, naturally, but it has gotta start there to be great. I often try to imagine what various guitar players playing would sound like if we could hear them unplugged (or with just a DI signal), and have come to realise that I would still find the great players listenable. Imagine CC, Django, Wes, Martino, GB unplugged - still wonderful. Metheny? hmm... not so much!
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hehe, just teasing (a little). My favourite PM is from that infamous "lesson tape", where you can hear his strings acoustically, a fair bit of attack which surprised me, and best dynamics I've heard from him. Great Minor blues lines for days too! (still, no Martino, Wes, Bean, or Rene Thomas etc...). Originally Posted by christianm77
As far as hands vs gear, a lot of players let their hands take a back seat to the gear, where the gear starts to take over. Consider compression or distortion, there comes a point where your dynamics are absorbed to the point of being lost (as Greentone points out), so you will naturally use minimum effort to enable the "sound" to just come through. Now, you can argue that this is still valid technique given that after all, we are most often playing an electric instrument, so why play it like it's an acoustic, right?
But even though most Rock/Blues/Fusion players seem to develop a "minimum dynamic" technique, the great players in these styles, I maintain, are still very dynamic players and would appear so if you took their sound away- Hendrix, SRV, Jeff Beck, BB King etc ...
You don't always have to defer to your stomp box...
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