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LOL !!! Well, I got a pin stuck in my balloon this morning by the neurologist who was responsible for having my license suspended. It's a long story, going back 18 months and lots of squabbles. Way too long to go into .... anyway, we'll see if all is well by next week. The very earliest that I could be driving again would be 31 December.
Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Glad that you got the speaker back. Any chance of making those SPL curves with and without the cabinet ? And at an input power of 1 watt ? Don't want to push too hard but it would be neat if the measurements were sort of consistent with all of the other data
Thanks for the update !
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12-03-2009 05:45 PM
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Well, it's about at the same point as your license: they'll ship the speaker in the cabinet tomorrow. I must say I'm looking forward to having my orphan amp head find a home.
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OK, John, you're the MAN here:
1. You have a recording area that's de-bugged
2. You have an instrument capable of measuring SPL
3. You have a Weber (hopefully)
Only thing left to do is establish the correct drive level of one watt at the speaker terminals and locate your SPL instrument one meter away If you have an 8 ohm resistor (for calibration) with and a DMM, just adjust the level of your calibrated sound source for 2.828 volts rms across the 8 ohm resistor (I'm assuming that the Weber is 8 ohms ?)
(Obviously, you know all of this, I'm being repetitive for the benefit of those readers who do not have your experience.)
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The correct Weber cabinet finally arrived!
It's big (26"x26") but relatively light. At least it fits the Band-Master VM head.
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Is that the 15" California? Swee-eet! Do you feel the description was accurate?
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Yes, it's a California Ceramic 15" Weber in one of their cabinets. Weber initially shipped me the speaker in their smaller cabinet, which was too small for my amp head. Even though it sounded good, I sent it back. Kudos for Weber for customer service, also: I emailed them about the problem and my phone rang about two minutes, with TA Weber on the phone. Can't beat that!
As to the accuracy of their description...it pretty much sounds the way I expected it to. Verbal depictions of sound characteristics are notoriously slippery, and this applies to what I wanted as well as to the information of Weber's web site.* Weber compares it to the JBL D130F,which seems to be an obligatory reference for 15" speakers, with good reason: the D130F has long been held to be the gold standard, and used examples sell on eBay for good prices.
I was looking for a round, rich tone, with some bite on the top end when I dig in with the pick; and a sweeter top than the various 10" and 12" speaker cabinets I have. Another trait I was looking for was a certain heft in the lower strings, especially up above the 9th fret on the A and D. So far, I seem to have found what I was looking for.
My initial experiment involved plugging the Fender head pictured into a Hartke 115TP bass speaker. That gave it the depth I wanted, but responsiveness (and upper end snap) was lacking. I like the sound of the Hartke when I play bass, but its particular personality didn't translate for the guitar.
Anyway, this is a very lively combination. The head is 40 watts, with a typical Fender reverb that gives the sound a little shimmer. The speaker brings it all to life, but I'll know more when I have a chance to use it ensemble, perhaps this weekend. I have also committed to doing some measurements for Randy, and those will be interesting, in light of the very good sound of this setup.
*Showman, Vibroverb, Vibroclones, replaces JBL D130 15", 60oz ceramic magnet, 80 watt, 2" voice coil, curved cone. Loud, smooth, uncolored, more headroom than the AlNiCo version. Available with paper, aluminum, or the large H screen dome for more warmth. Available with the standard curved lead guitar cone or the straight, cloth edge bass cone.
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Did you buy it broken in? Looks great. The steel players love that speaker too.
Until I get screwed I will always support Weber (because they have always been good with me).
Congrats!
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I should introduce you to my friend Fran Jelico
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OK, SamBooka, maybe you're making a joke ... if so, you got me Originally Posted by SamBooka
But if you're serious ... then I have to ask: why should a speaker have to be "broken in"?
Can anyone explain in terms that I can understand or can anyone offer by proof or by scientific reasoning or by demonstration (i.e. measurement) why this is a good thing and what - if any - properties are improved?
Inquiring minds want to know ...
cheers,
randyc
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LPD: Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Who paid all of those shipping costs? Your ES-335 is gorgeous, BTW, any chance of another photo (with a s-l-o-w exposure) so we can better see that warm maple top !
cheers,
randyc
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Weber's web site has a "speaker break-in" explanation. According to Weber, various materials in the cone and surround benefit from the initial powering of a speaker. The process takes something less than a second. After that, it's forever "broken in." As you might expect, there's a whole priesthood and mythology on the subject. Being an atheist myself, I defer to the expertise of others. Originally Posted by randyc
OK, SamBooka, maybe you're making a joke ... if so, you got me But if you're serious ... then I have to ask: why should a speaker have to be "broken in"?
Can anyone explain in terms that I can understand or can anyone offer by proof or by scientific reasoning or by demonstration (i.e. measurement) why this is a good thing and what - if any - properties are improved?
Inquiring minds want to know ...
cheers,
randyc
I don't know if my photographic skills will allow anything fancier than what I have provided -- but I'll give it a try, anyhow. Originally Posted by randyc
As for shipping, the original charge was added to the cost of the speaker; they paid to send the new one, and they are reimbursing me for my shipping the first cabinet back to them.
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Thanks LDP. I knew they did it.. never knew how tho. Guys with champ600s tend to replace the speaker because the stock ones are pretty cheap (as is the amp itself). I myself did this (but in my defense I wanted an 8 in there). After a few hours of abuse the speaker did sound a little warmer, less high end. A touch less responsive too but this is ok with me. They are cool little blues amps.
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I suspect that a lot of lower end amps will profit from speaker replacement. A few years ago I bought a Pignose G40V as a harp amp/project, and the speaker on it rattled straight out of the box. I substituted an Eminence, but I think now -- a few years later -- I could find a 10" that's less harsh on the top end.
I hear complaints about Blues Jr amps with the Fender speakers. I bought the NOS (Jensen speaker) and it sounds fine. That might be an inexpensive improvement to the standard BJ.
It looks as though future speaker purchases will be from Weber: they seem to know their stuff, offer personalized advice, and their prices, while a bit higher than the run-of-the-mill stuff, are still in line with their quality.
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I'm also a member of the Telecaster forum where the members seem to be good with their hands: they all seem to be busy making or assembling or modding their guitars and amps. It seems the first thing anyone writes in their NAD (new amp day) post is that they're (1) thrilled with their new amp and (2) just about to replace the speakers, the tubes (of course it's a tube amp!), the caps, the reverb tank, the transformer... Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
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Yeah, it's easy to become obsessed over that stuff. I have the advantage of not being particularly knowledgeable about such things (which, of course, doesn't slow anybody else down). A lot of the "information" circulating in the internet is sheerest folklore and pixie dust, as Randy has been testifying, and this "data" makes many bold while it makes me timid.
Being aware of my limitations, I restrict myself to broader rather than finer strokes: I'll buy a carefully chosen speaker and cabinet (always with the understanding that I don't always know what I am looking for, or the means of finding it, and even whether I can reliably recognize it when I have found it) but I won't rewire my amplifier. I respect those who do so with the necessary expertise. Some years ago I successfully installed a Torres Tone Kit (carefully following the instructions!) in my Carvin X100, and it transformed the amp from one with a wimpy clean and a heavy-handed distorted sound to one that spoke with authority on both channels. Kudos to Mr Torres for knowing what he was doing.
In this case, I took an off-the-shelf amp head, identified what I liked about it, and set about looking for a speaker that would enhance its strengths.
So far, I think I've succeeded: the new combo is definitely a giant step further in the direction I was going.
Because the test is not the tube count, nor the number of trick components, nor even how my amp fits into the latest electronic fad, but simply whether it helps me express myself musically, or not. There's not really a scientific standard for that, is there? And how do I know I'm expressing something I started with, or something that I can only express with the new voice?
I don't deal in such issues, but I guarantee there are web site forums that will take you ever deeper into the maelstrom of unverifiable and ultimately pointless interpretations of your sound.
So I have a new, shiny cabinet, and I'm happy. At some point I'll get frequency response charts to Mr Randy, and he can explain what it all means in terms of furlongs per fortnight.Last edited by lpdeluxe; 12-10-2009 at 02:49 PM.
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LPD: that's a very nice looking rig, if I didn't mention it before. When I was a teen, I lusted for a Bandmaster. One never came my way although a lot of other old Fender amplifiers have stuck to me over the years. My favorite, most often used amplifier, was always the Bassman but thinking back, the Bandmaster would probably have worked even better in many venues (and for the type of music that I mostly played back then).
That "breaking in" thing still confuses me. Nobody else seems to do that so I suppose that Weber is using some form of adhesive that cures in a manner that makes it "stiff" (perhaps an alphacyanoacrylate or something that's spelled a little like it), rather than the more traditional forms of silicone rubber (as an example).
Also, regarding measuring the speaker, it would serve no useful purpose to measure it IN the enclosure, and a lot of work would be necessary to remove the speaker and make the standard SPL measurement. The amount of information gained from the exercise probably is not worth the effort expended. So let's just let it slide ...
Maybe one of these days, they'll do the right thing and provide us with the SPL curves. (As mentioned in another jazz forum, the lack of the curves is most likely intentional - various reasons were suggested.) I've concluded that the SPL curves are useless as visual tools but, following the method that I developed a couple of weeks ago, they are VERY useful (patting self on back).
At any rate, that's a fine-looking rig, by anyone's standards !
Cheers,
randyc
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Thank you for the compliments -- it dominates the living room! Somehow I wasn't mentally prepared for the fact that two large components would form an even larger rig. Originally Posted by randyc
I'm interested in doing some casual measurement to compare the closed back vs open back sound. So far, it sounds very good. I am bodging together some gear -- oddly enough, I don't have a loose CD player for running the test CD, so I'll use my laptop. I'll see if the headphone jack has enough power to give me any sound if I plug into the speaker. I looked for the spec on the output but the laptop manufacturer apparently felt that was over the heads of its target audience. If that's not sufficient, I can power a solid-state amp from it, and if THAT's not enough, I can patch the output into a mixer>amp.
I looked for the "speaker break-in" quote but possibly it was somewhere not immediately retrievable, such as in a forum thread. I did find one reference, but not the one I was looking for. My strong impression is that Weber doesn't take it seriously, and their "less than one second" to break in was perhaps a pretense to taking the issue seriously (this is underlined by the lack of any mention in their speaker FAQ).
As with most such things, the effects are not measurable, and depend upon aural memory. My experience has always been (and is yet again reinforced, with my playing through the new toy) that sensory impressions are overwhelmed by familiarity, in the sense that, when first we are exposed to a new speaker (or guitar, or whatnot), it takes a period of time for our fingers to adjust to the different response and sound of the new piece. After that, we automatically adjust our playing to the new requirements, and this is probably the genesis of the "speaker break-in" business. All my electric guitars (and amps) have improved tremendously after I first picked them up, but I don't believe that that's the result of "break-in," unless you accept the idea that the guitar (or speaker) is "breaking" ME in to its way of responding to my touch (there's an ancient vaudeville joke: a guy comes on stage, limping -- the straight man says, what happened? Oh, replies the comic, I got a new motorcycle and it's breaking me in). As always, skeptics and true believers disagree.
I'm hoping to use the new rig ensemble soon, but my main playing partner is juggling a trip to N Carolina (job interview), his day job, family responsibilities and a trip we are planning to Houston to check out Dobros, so my wish may not immediately be granted.
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I see now that my earlier post stated that "Weber's web site has a 'speaker break-in' explanation. According to Weber, various materials in the cone and surround benefit from the initial powering of a speaker."
As corrected above, I could not find that on their web site. I remember reading it, but it's no longer retrievable. (Tee shirt slogan: "the older I get, the less hard drive memory I have available.")
So I withdraw my remark that Weber endorses the concept.
As to their supplying measurements for their speakers, Weber says they custom-build each speaker ordered, and they offer endless options. This may make it impossible to provide reliable measurements.
I will continue to search for what I remembered about "break-in."
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Ah! Confusion reigned in my mind: the relevant information came, not from Weber, but from the Audioholics web site:
Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction? — Reviews and News from Audioholics
This site is a great source of debunking of various pixie-dust theories subscribed to by audiophiles.
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A good site indeed ! I was on the right track with the adhesive thing but this statement (from the site you provided) makes the process much clearer: Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
"When a newly-minted driver rolls off the assembly line it will typically not measure or otherwise perform as one of its well-broken in siblings does. In large part these differences arise owing to the fact that said driver's spider (often crafted of a varnish-impregnated linen) is not as compliant as it will become once it's broken in properly."
Thanks, LPD, I'm happy with the explanation
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