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Hi, I used to drown my sound in delay and reverb to feel comfortable, but in a band context i always got lost in the mix.
now i stopped using it completely, however i still want to use a smidge of reverb/delay, kinda like gilad hekselman but a bit more subtle, but something in my head is telling me: "NO REVERB/DELAY ALLOWED!!" and that using reverb and delay will make nuances and dynamics get lost, however i kinda miss it and it tends to be inspiring (which is a big plus obviously).
but because it is inspiring i don't want to use it because that would be sort of a crutch wouldn't it?
I'm also wondering why electric guitar needs a big room or some effects to get a wet sound, whilst other instruments are more tolerable without a wet sound (bass, sax, etc..)
anyway, confession over...
what is your opinion on this topic, and what would you do if you were in my shoes? it's been bothering me for years.
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11-23-2018 08:22 PM
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I love reverb. I can remember, vividly, the moment about 55 years ago, when I first heard reverb.
To my ear, a guitar sounds too dry without any reverb. I don't care for the dry sound.
Of course, it's possible to sound too "washy" for a given musical situation. I stopped using chorus for that reason. I still play with noticeable reverb, including with horn bands.
I do think it may be helpful to have a way of stopping the reverb instantly (no echo trail) for abrupt endings. A volume pedal after the reverb unit would do that -- no way to do that with the reverb in an ordinary amp afaik.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
here we go again with the volume pedal!!! haha.. a true bypass reverb pedal will cut trails the second you stomp out...thats all you need..a reverb pedal that has true bypass
processed reverb is ubiquitous...used on earliest recordings...used in mastering from tape to disc..and used by radio stations..who notoriously compressed and reverbed their signals for maximum intensity
everything we hear is based upon reverberation...robert johnson recording his seminal tracks in a hotel room facing the corner of the room..for enhanced reverb...like singin in the shower...
cheers
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For jazz playing, except for a few tunes like "Sleepwalk" where long tails of reverb IS the sound of the song, minimal reverb is usually just right. This means if the venue has wood, tile, concrete, or other reflective surfaces, no additional reverb may be needed. A place with carpet, soft tiles, hanging fabric, or other absorbent surfaces may not need "reverb" per se, but just some ambiance, which on a Fender tube amp means trying to set the reverb at the magic spot very hard to find somewhere between 1 (all the way down) and less than 2 (where it may begin to express longer tails already).
On Fender tube amps, reverb is driven by V3 (the third tube from the right when viewing from behind the amp). That tube is a 12AT7 and both triodes in the glass envelop are used in parallel to act as a single ended 1 watt amp feeding the reverb tank. The amp's reverb control knob attenuates the reverb return signal into the Vibrato channel, which enters 1/2 of V4 (only one triode of the 12AX7 fourth tube from the right).
There are two ways to change the reverb so that the magic range is widened and moved up to the middle numerals of the reverb knob. One way is to replace V4 with a lower gain tube like a 12AU7 (only 20% of 12AX7). This lowers the overall gain of the vibrato channel a little and reduces the reverb a lot to the point that the long tails and splashy sprongy sound is pretty much gone even turned all the way up, and if you have ever been bugged by noise in your reverb, that will be gone, too.
The other way is to replace the V3 12AT7 with a 12AU7 at the "front end" of the reverb system. This preserves the full gain of the Vibrato channel but you will likely find that the vibrato effect no longer works... there is not enough level in the signal to operate the vibrato effect.
The two ways sound slightly different, so you can try both and hear which feels best - both allow for essentially converting the reverb sound to a more subtle ambient almost delay kind of sound, very natural sounding in a way that just turning down the stock reverb is not.
There is a third way for the reverb connoisseur... you can unplug the reverb return cable (male RCA), fit it with an adapter (female RCA to 1/4 inch female), and then use a patch cord or guitar cord from that to plug into the Normal channel input. Plug your guitar into the Vibrato channel (whose reverb control will not work now) and now control the reverb with the Normal channel controls - this gives you control over the volume mix level of reverb, but also the tone! of the reverb! You can set a dark reverb for a bright guitar tone, or a bright reverb for a dark guitar tone, make the reverb louder than the guitar dry signal...
This reverb will be out of phase with the guitar signal (because phase polarity is reversed in each gain stage and the Vibrato channel has one more gain stage than the Normal channel) which you may notice with some unusual setting combinations - it will have a "spooky" sound...
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flush, you've got a case of analysis paralysis.
Get a nice reverb pedal like the TC Electronics Hall of Fame and add a tiny bit of reverb. It just sweetens and fattens the sound- I think that what I am aiming for is to have the same sort of natural reverb that I get with my archtop just playing acoustically. It makes my amplified sound seem more like my sound (I almost always practice acoustically). Even while I thought for years that I wanted a more electric sound, like an ES-175, I feel happiest when my amplified sound is closer to my acoustic sound and a touch of reverb helps get me there.
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I like reverb with a touch of delay. I've tried a bunch of them and have settled on the Earthquake Devices Dispatch Master - it works great for me on both pedal steel and lead guitar.Great for 'Chet' stuff, too. I run it through the effects loop on my DV Mark Jazz 50 head.
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Good point. A true bypass reverb pedal will do that.
Since I play with my foot on a volume pedal most of the time, I tended to think about doing it that way.
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Does it do it that way only if the battery is missing? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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. Quit listening to the voice in your head, as well as folks who make it seem as if you're breaking the law because you use reverb. Originally Posted by flush
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This thread made me remember the sound of a guy's Fender Duo-Sonic through a Fender Deluxe Reverb in a high school cafeteria around 1966 - what magic that was for me then on "Walk Don't Run" or "Pipeline". Later, the floor mounted 3 dial Fender tube reverb......
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why is it that guitar through an amp sounds so dry? this doesn't happen compared to bass guitar or even keyboards Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Perhaps there are musical or situational reasons why reverb/delay are not advisable. Apart from that, it's mostly other people's expectations or judgements that constrain us. How do you want to sound, for your music, for your audience or intended purpose? Originally Posted by flush
Reverb and delay are part of my sound. Not covering up anything, or making up for the lack of anything. Just I how like to hear things.Last edited by mad dog; 11-25-2018 at 09:26 AM.
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I always use both, for different reasons.
Reverb is essential for a good guitar sound, IMO. I would say very few clean tones were ever recorded without it, even if it's just a touch - a clean guitar will sound excruciatingly dry without it. The trick is not to use a lot, because then it will sound like country music or ambient guitar, and it will make you lost in the mix. Depending on the reverb you're using, it's mainly a balance between a low mix and a medium decay. If you have pre-delay it can help to add a little, and if you have eq or several reverb types, going for a slightly bright reverb can help too.
As for delay, I don't think it's essential, but I almost always use it, especially if playing with a horn or a bigger combo. Contrary to believe, I think delay helps in getting present in the mix because it adds sustain - it's quite hard to fit a clean guitar, with so little sustain, within a loud horn filled combo. The trick, one more, is not to overuse it, otherwise, it will become too washed out and you'll get lost in the mix (and the repeats may even interfere in your lines). A low mix, medium feedback, around 500ms delay is the best option, in my experience. Contrary to reverb, here I tend to choose the darker options, so the repeats will blend better with the dry sound.
Getting lost in the mix is usually more about finding your frequency region. A 400hz boost, a slight low-cut, and not cutting the treble or the tone control too much (as some jazzers do) can help that, depending on the instrument.
I agree Gilad's tone can sound too wet, but there's a middle ground. Hope this helps.
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Ah i always used the darkest possible reverb settings on my multi-fx lol Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
can i ask what pedals you use for your verb and delay?
and how do you set the mix? 10%? 25%?
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I want to use it and love the sound, but on the other hand i feel like i'd be screwed if i won't have it one day, so i guess i'm trying to make it sound as good as possible without the effects so i'll never have that problem. Originally Posted by mad dog
for example, i used to always play with distortion, and when i tried to play clean i realized how sloppy and undynamic i was without it, it's probably the same line of thinking that is preventing me from going with delay/reverb?
I think i should probably go see a psychologist about it XD
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Ah, part of the mystery is explained Originally Posted by flush
Ah i always used the darkest possible reverb settings on my multi-fx lol
can i ask what pedals you use for your verb and delay? and how do you set the mix? 10%? 25%?
I usually use a Zoom G3N, although I've been looking at the HX Stomp for some time now (but I have used a lot of stuff in the past). It's a little hard to give an idea because the algorithms are all different... but I would venture to say I set the mix between 15% and 20%, and the decay between 30% and 40%. Something like that. Delays I always manipulate the mix according to the room and the band, but usually, I don't touch the reverb setting, unless it's an extremely dry or wet room, which happens, sometimes.
Which pedals are you using?
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You don't mention what your guitar/amp setup is . With my vintage 18" carved archtop and dearmond FHC /in combo with any amp I have tried through the clean channel the thing that brings everything alive is my Catalinbread Talisman.
Any reverb other than plate sounds "reverbey" and contrived for me , mine is set it up with the pedal just causing the beginning of a noticable shift in effect.
Will
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right now i don't use any pedals, i have used the zoom G3 as well, the Zoom MS70cdr, G1xon, EHX holy grail/memory toy, etc.. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Ah, part of the mystery is explained
I usually use a Zoom G3N, although I've been looking at the HX Stomp for some time now (but I have used a lot of stuff in the past). It's a little hard to give an idea because the algorithms are all different... but I would venture to say I set the mix between 15% and 20%, and the decay between 30% and 40%. Something like that. Delays I always manipulate the mix according to the room and the band, but usually, I don't touch the reverb setting, unless it's an extremely dry or wet room, which happens, sometimes.
Which pedals are you using?
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strat with humbuckers into roland cube 80gx, i also prefer plate reverb Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
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That's an interesting question. Another completely personal preference. I love always on, modest clean boost - and/or enough amp volume to get a little edge - but don't care for greater distortion, such as OD or fuzz pedals. Originally Posted by flush
The dividing line for me seems to be depth of sound, dynamics. Clean boost, reverb and delay (all subtly set, in moderation) seem to enhance a good clean sound. Make it more spacious, rich. Whereas dirt (to me) flattens out the sound. Not a question of wrong or right. Or genre. I love distortion in the hands of others, just can't get used to it in my own playing.
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The G3 or the G3N? On the MS70CDR I would use the Analog Delay (it has a treble control to make it darker) and the Plate Reverb is fine, but I would adjust the eq and the pre-delay! Originally Posted by flush
I would also try using the graphic eq to position you better in the mix, especially boosting 400hz.
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Dry or wet - it totally depends on the situation; what music you play and the context.
A good sound for solo play is usually not the ideal sound in a band mix. When playing solo we often like to fill the sound space with deep bass and shimmering highs and everything in-between, to get a full, imposing sound. We like the sound to be pleasant to the ear and we often use reverb as a soft filter to smoothen the jagged edges and blur the sound to simulate acoustics of a venue. Reverb also increases perceived sustain similar to the sustain pedal of a classic piano.
When recording an orchestra, reverb is practically always added to the final mix of the entire band, much of the same reasons; to get a sound pleasant to the ear and compensate for a less than perfect studio hall.
When playing guitar in a band, you're in the mix. Now you have a different purpose; your sound should fill a certain slot in the spectrum. Your slot is defined by the other instruments in the band. (You should not compete with bass player in his territory etc.) You typically don't want a soft filter to smoothen your sound, because it'll be harder to hear your phrases. To what extent the entire band gets reverb or not depends on the venue, the band and the music.
Other than that, reverb and/or delay can be used at any time to create an effect (which should not be confused with "always on" as would be an integral part of your sound)
Much of this is applicable to compression as well. When playing with distortion you get natural compression (that smoothens jagged edges in your dynamics) but it also blurs the sound and articulation may suffer.
Solo or in a band, some styles sound best with reverb and/or delay, other styles really benefit from a dry sound. In the end, it's about what you like the listener to hear (and not to hear).
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I don't really like the Zoom time effects, i always preferred stompboxes, could be mental though, but i felt the 3 knob boxes were easier to dial in and not get obsessed over. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I dabbled in EQ for 2 years or so and got seriously obsessed with it, to the point that i was adjusting graphic EQ's DURING songs in rehearsal... not going that route again, i think i'll stick with amp eq lol
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What do you mean with 'soft filter' ? compressor? Originally Posted by JCat
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i often use what can be conservatively estimated as a metric fuck ton of reverb and delay. if you're getting lost:
-a little compression could help the notes/transients poke through
-an eq shift (maybe a boost to the mids) could have a similar effect
-vary your pickup selection and where you picking hand hits the strings (pick closer to the bridge)
-if you have a fancy delay, you could high/low pass it
-use less reverb and delay
i tend to prefer things that stay behind the notes, and not overtake them (unless i'm trying to do that). maybe you need to pick less aggressive effects?
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