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First of all, hello to everyone. I apologise this is my first post. I have read this forum a lot over the last 12 months and you have been very helpful in guiding me in my firsts steps with arch top guitars.
I am hoping that some of you may be so kind as to give your opinion on a situation I have. A few weeks ago I purchased a very expensive $10,000 archtop guitar from a well respected dealer in the USA. For the time being it's probably best if I keep the name of the company to myself except to say they have a good reputation and excellent feedback.
They were extremely helpful and agreed to ship the guitar to the UK, they allowed me to pay the deposit with my credit card and the balance was sent by wire transfer. I was it would be shipped by FedEx. After shipping I had to chase them up to get the tracking number which turned out to be USPS.
On arrival I opened the case to discover the neck broken at the nut, the classic Gibson break. It appeared to have been shipped under string tension. There was no packaging inside the case at all. Nothing to protect the headstock, no packaging between the rosewood bridge and the guitar body. As the neck was broken the bridge was rattling loose inside the case.
I immediately reported the damage to the seller and after some courteous back and forth they confirmed it was covered by their insurance. They offered to pay for a repair in the UK and afterwards provide compensation for the loss in value, or I could return it for a refund minus the shipping costs. They were not quite pushy but it was clear they preferred me to keep the guitar. I spoke to their luthier who reassured me it could be put right. I consulted with friends, family, local luthiers and even with Gibson approved Service Centres. They all seemed to think my best course of action was to return it for a refund.
After my first email explaining I thought it would be best to return it I received a phone call from the owner who was polite and professional but it was clear he was keen to persuade me to keep it. I mulled it over. I don't like confrontation and I didn't want to be talked into keeping it because I knew I would not be happy with the guitar broken and not knowing what compensation I would receive until after it was repaired. I decided to package the guitar up and return it by FedEx then email them to let them know it was coming back and request a refund.
I heard nothing. I knew the owner was travelling but he had email access. After the FedEx tracking showed it was delivered I emailed and asked for confirmation they had it and an update on the refund. Nothing. After 2 weeks with no contact I emailed the owner again stressing my concern. This was the reply:
"We have reported your guitar to our insurance company.
I am out of the country returning Thursday night.I will be back in the office on Friday and will be back in touch with the insurance company then.I will let you know what they say. Sorry for the delay, but as you know I am out of the country."
My position is this. I have received damaged goods and returned them, I want a refund. The insurance is between the seller and their insurance company is it not?
Also, is it fair that I should have to cover shipping charges? It's cost my over £400 to receive and return a broken guitar through no fault of my own.
What should I do from here?
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11-01-2018 05:25 PM
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welcome to the forum!
I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience. Usually there's a lot of "gray" area when disputing cases like this. I would advise you to look for proper legal help. Here we have so called free legal services where a professional lawyer would give us some counseling, but one has to wait in line to be admitted - not sure if this is possible in the UK.
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If it was me I would demand a refund and they pay for shiping it back. for them to suggest that you Just get it repaired is Insuting to you do you buy a expensive Car to find out it needs a Major work Job.Or a Refigorator that dosent work.and then have the companie you bought it from say oh thats no big thing. And what does thier insurance companie have to do with your Loss its thier loss not yours.If i could not get a full refund from them then i would post pictures and statments about this on all social media sites.
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Bad story. You can put a claim in with your credit card company for the deposit, but the amount you sent by bank wire will need to be recovered by a lawsuit if the music store owner does not do the right thing. If things go that far (hopefully not) the legal costs will be expensive and may not be recoverable (some US States have statutes that may permit a recovery for attorney fees).
Hopefully the owner will recover the loss through his insurance company and do the right thing and give you a full refund, but that could take awhile. I would start lining up a lawyer in the State where the music store is in the meantime, just in case.
Good luck and welcome to the forum. Too bad your first post was not under a happier circumstance.
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That's really sucks, I'm so sorry for you. I admire your composure so far, I know I would be freaking out. Shall we assume from your text that it is a new Gibson guitar? You mention dealer, seller, and owner in the message. Are they one in the same?
Whatever you do, please document EVERYTHING word-for-word, with proof if possible.
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Terrible news. Been there. You did the right thing returning it. A broken headstock devalues by 50% even with a perfect repair. Any stand up dealer would refund immediately. You should tell us who the dealer is. LOL !!!
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This has to be both the greatest AND saddest 1st post of all time!
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So sorry man, that is a horror story! Sounds like the "dealer's" inept packing caused this. So sad, completely avoidable!
Time for you and a large buddy not afraid of confrontation to take a trip to the good 'ol USA and see the sights!
Face to face is far more effective!
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If it were me, I'd get a lawyer who is experienced dealing with issues like this, e.g. damaged product and failure to reimburse you for your experience. There are times when confrontation is necessary because not everyone is honest and straightforward. Securing the services of an aggressive legal counselor may be just the pressure that is needed to resolve this. I am sorry for your dilemma and hope it is quickly resolved.
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If the dealer does not want to make it right show him this post. The explain you will get a lot of bad press and I would avoid any dealer like that. Guitar goes back you need to be made whole including shipping. They packed it wrong wrong wrong wrong.
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Any dealer that does not know how to pack -and expeditiously ship a 10k guitar - has no business selling one. You should disclose the dealer. This forum hosts a close network of friends and connections - and it may put the necessary leverage on the dealer to act responsibly.
Shipping guitars is risky business. When I sell a guitar it’s detuned ( in some cases the bridge is removed ) and it’s packaged beautifully on the interior / exterior of the guitar case , then sent “ Fed - X “ next day air. Yeah - it’s expensive - but thus far never a problem.
So sorry for your troubles - Hopefully this will be resolved to your satisfaction in a timely manner.
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Another point to consider - most USA dealers use Heritage insurance out of Philadelphia , PA. Heritage has a great policy - underwritten by Travelers - and it covers risks associated with transportation - along with repair cost and market depreciation.
I know this specifically because I have a Heritage Policy. The guitar you received was covered under dealers insurance throughout transit. So , taking it back should be no issue . He’s probably trying to hold your money until he receives the settlement .
You can try calling Ellis at Heritage and they can look up the USA dealer to see if they have a policy with them - and advise accordingly .
Ellis at Heritage insurance
(800) 289-8837
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I can attest to the fact s above of which Qaman speaks... His shipments are PERFECT..
Originally Posted by QAman
OTOH, I have purchased (one of my finest guitars) from a highly prestigious dealer and the
guitar was packed OK, but inside the case, there was a fully-tuned guitar and no other protection
of any kind, it (I believe) is a miracle that wasn't any damage (it did show some lacquer cracking
but can't tell from the photos whether they were already present, they only show up if you turn
the guitar a certain way, under a certain light etc.. so no big deal) but I was completely shocked
that the dealer would pack and ship this fine a guitar with zero inside-the-case protection.
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Never happened to me w a guitar but I purchased a vintage Fender amp once that arrived completely smashed. UPS told me to send it back and have the seller file a claim.
You can guess what happened next-the seller kept the claim $ AND the amp.
He was on the other coast and refused to refund the $.
But I kept after him and after threatening legal action I finally got the $ back after 6 months.
Sorry to hear your horror story, but keep after him.
Deacon marc's advice is a good way to push things along.
Once I got ripped off by a very high profile dealer on the west coast and it was only after I posted the experience here that he finally refunded my $
Good luck w this, just don't let him bully you and don't give up.
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Gutted to read this. Every buyer's nightmare. Sometimes, dealers who act responsibly within the borders, where they depend on for the bulk of their business, act irresponsibly as long as it is shipped outside of the borders. Happened to me.
You asked for FedEx and was billed for FedEx and it was shipped USPS? Extra profit pocketed for the dealer? USPS has parcel limits of a maximum length of 46" and girth of 108". Most shipping boxes for archtop and acoustic guitars measure at least 48" in length. Did the dealer use an undersize shipping box that just met the 46" limit to ship your Gibson guitar, just to pocket extra profit? He must have; the Gibson archtop hard case for an L5CES, for example, measures about 45". With the flaps sealed that means there is precious little or no room at the top and bottom of the shipping box for any packing material. One tumble on the end of the box, the guitar slides forward in the case, the headstock contacts the case wall and it snaps. Just illustrating the dealer's negligence going by what you wrote.
The shipping insurance insures the seller even though you pay for it. If he fails in his claim it is on him, not on you. Don't accept the baloney that a failed insurance claim is on you. Insurance insures the shipper against loss , not the recipient. He is the named beneficiary in the insurance document. You should be refunded immediately, regardless of the outcome of his insurance claim. This is based on my own understanding of shipping insurance. If he is reputable he should refund you immediately or replace it with a similar model in perfect condition, if you had bought it new. "Out of the country"? How convenient.
From my armchair, it appears that this dealer planned this to fail. I would have gone out of my way to treble-box it and pack it inside and outside to prevent the typical shipping mishandling, especially, if it was going across The Pond. I bought a $2250 guitar from Jack Zucker and the man boxed the inner box in an outsized outer box with ample dense black expanded foam in between to survive a calamity. The headstock was wrapped in ample industrial grade bubble-wrap in the case to prevent it from sliding forwards; the fretboard had thick brown packing paper under the strings. And that was for a $2250 guitar, not to mention the $10 000 you paid!
I am not saying this to pour oil on fire. Don't be a willing victim because you are not confrontational by nature. This needs to be resolved immediately.
Attorney-General's Office? Sheriff of the County? USPS Postmaster? BBB? If you do not get your money back, is there any fraud in this?
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i have emailed three highly reputable dealers and they all gave me the same claptrap: we have been shipping guitars for many years and we know how to pack. Our insurance will take care of any damage.
When I read that I walked away. No specifics about double-boxing, cushioning, and stuff. I know they cannot be bothered and I am not into this to play the insurance claim game.
Some dealers actually ship the guitar and case out to a customer in the same factory box that it was delivered in. These factory boxes are not shipping boxes; they are boxes to prevent the tolexed case from being scuffed and torn. They are there to seal the guitar in to preserve factory newness. They are not meant as shipping boxes. But dealers can be very stupid and dense at times. Guitars are shipped to dealers in bulk and often with a maker's specialist delivery contractor. They are not mixed in with other goods of all shapes, sizes and weights and don't go through a sorting mechanised conveyor belt with kickers.
The PRS box for a JA-15 is an exact fit for the PRS hard case. There is no room for packing material for the girth and top and bottom of the case. The PRS box is made to prevent the case from being scuffed only. It is not shipping box. There is a difference. Jack Zucker thankfully double-boxed it. Kudos to Jack. The person who sold it to him sent it in that box because the address labels are still on it. It survived that relatively short journey but really, he was playng roulette.
A Gibson factory box is a little better as it allows you to add ample packing material. But it is thin-walled that requires augmentation. Good enough for shipping if properly packed with cushioning materials. Double-boxing it would be better.
I am gutted to read the OP's post and astounded at the laziness of some dealers and gawping at their chutzpah of pressuring the OP into accepting the guitar, repairing it and getting an unspecified amount as compensation. Bollocks! His $10 000 Gibson with a break like that is practically worth about $1000 even with an expert repair, not even $5000. People who can afford $5000 can afford $7500 for a used one in fine condition. I won't touch a repaired headstock Gibson for $5000, not even a Citation. It is difficult to sell on; you have to practically give it away.
Badgerotoole, mate, don't settle. Don't write any language that suggests or intimates that you are willing to consider settling. Have a paper trail. Be firm. And don't play nice because that can be used against you. It happened to me because I was nice and it was used against me.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-02-2018 at 03:07 PM.
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Since you sent it back already, I assume you photographed everything - showing it as it emerged from the the box, as it appeared as soon as you opened the case before even touching it, and so on. Both the guitar - shambles as it is - and your money are in the seller's hands. He's got you by the short hairs.
So IF this is a well-respected dealer, and I gather it is a private one rather than store, then he should be refunding you first and then dealing on his own with the insurance company. His quibble with them, if he has one, is not your concern.
I would bother this person every single day, politely but aggressively, and share that you are a member of various online forums where you will reveal this story, and eventually threaten legal action, in that order. Obviously you try to be a gentleman and don't do all of this at once. But make sure you lay out this progression mentally and prepare for it.
I'll tell you this - the initial 2 weeks AFTER tracking showed it as returned would have exhausted a good portion of that progression for me.
At this point only a wire transfer into your account is a satisfactory outcome. And it should include your unnecessary return shipment cost.
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In my case, my friend's godfather, a retired lawyer, recommended a lawyer working in his old firm to me. The guy's first line was "$2000" before he would even make one comment on my case. I pressed on, "Do I have a case?" $2000 was his reply. He would not say anymore without $2000, only the first in a sequence of payments. That was in the early Noughties to recover a sum of $11000.
An old schoolmate of mine, a lawyer in another bar, said: Attorney-General's Office, Sheriff of the County, FBI (email fraud; busjness was solicited through email and I responded to goods advertised on his website), USPS Postmaster (mailed the perp a cheque/check). BBB. Give him hell...
And the AGO and Sheriff of the County did before the FBI and USPS Postmaster. BBB gave him an F rating.
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That the guitar arrived broken was not your fault. So, I don't see why you should pay for shipping it back.
There is also no good reason why you have to wait for them to deal with their insurance company. Seems to me that is the seller's problem. If the insurer was to turn down his claim, for any reason, he would still owe you the money.
I bought a $1500 guitar earlier this year from Rudy's Music and had it shipped cross country. They packed it well, detuned the strings and it arrived in perfect condition.
All that said, right now, this guy has both the guitar and your money. It may not be right, but it may be best to work with him as best you can, get as much as he is willing to refund and, after that check has cleared, argue about the rest. This may be the sort of situation where pursuing it ends up being worse than eating the loss. Sorry to hear it.
After just a few experiences buying things sight-unseen (which was not true of the guitar I bought at Rudy's -- I played it when I was in NYC) I'm reluctant to buy things on line. Several of the transactions were marred in one way or another -- that never would have happened with an in-person transaction.
Just to make this clear -- Rudy's was great. And, when I had a question I was able to speak to the luthier on the phone about it. My experience with Rudy's was perfect. The problems I mentioned occurred with Ebay and another seller (I don't want to name this one because it was a case that arrived with a bad clasp and a guitar with a miscut nut -- and I didn't bother to complain, which means they didn't even have an opportunity to make it right -- so I won't name them here). I just thought it would be easier to deal with it myself than deal with shipping everything back.
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Badgerotoole, can you recover your VAT and import duties paid to HM Customs and Excise?
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Rudy's SOHO is top class! I bought a 2000 L4CES from Rudy's SOHO and it was well-packed, set up, with my preferred gauge of strings detuned. I paid about 18% more than market but I felt it was worth it. NYC rents are killa!
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Thanks everyone for the feedback. At this point I still don't want to say who the seller is but I will clear up a few other details. When I refer to the seller, owner, dealer I am talking about the same thing. It is a store not a private dealer. I have spoken to the owner and two of their employees so far. The guitar was not new, it was second hand but in almost mint condition (before the break) and made in the last 5 years and was something quite rare. I won't say what it was for now because it would almost certainly help reveal the dealer.
I am hoping the dealer will still come good and so I'm trying to avoid complicating things or affecting their ability to claim the insurance money. I am aware of who their insurance provider is also.
I did not request FedEx, they told that's who they used and said FedEx were very good, however for some reason they ended up using USPS which uses ParcelForce once it lands in the UK. I don't think I was charged for FedEx because the price I paid when I used FedEx to return the guitar was well over double.
They never tried to hard sell me to keep the guitar but it was clear to me that was the preferred option, stressing that it's a rare guitar and I might not get another. Putting me in touch with their luthier to talk about it. They did actually offer to replace the neck. It was persuasion not aggressive deal closure. What put me off was that although I was told I would be compensated for the loss in value due to the break they said the amount would be depending on how well it was repaired and if you could see it. It could be anywhere from 20% to 60%. If I got it fixed by a Gibson Authorised Service Centre who did an amazing job then it doesn't take a genius to work out how much I might have got. If it was a cheaper guitar I might have considered it but the amount of my investment lost on any resale combined with the disappointment of owning a beautiful guitar damaged in such a way would have ruined any enjoyment I might have got from owning an playing it.
Based on your responses there are a few paths open to me which I had not thought about. I am still clinging onto the hope that a shop with such a good feedback score will come good however it's easier to get good feedback if you treat people well on the phone doing business and all is good or when they walk into your shop to buy your guitars. What separates the men from the boys is how you deal with things when they go bad. The owner told me they had never had anything like this in all their years of business.
I have heard nothing so far today despite the promise of an update. I suspect they are stalling until they can get the insurance payment. I will certainly spill the beans next week unless significant progress is made.
I've done my best to give an honest and fair account. I am not saying these are nasty unscrupulous sharks. Overall they appeared very professional up until the problems started and things went quiet.
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Your patience is admirable -but will likely result in a protracted /delayed settlement .
Good luck with your outcome
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If this retailer is who I am pretty sure it is, this sort of thing is what happens when something goes wrong or the customer is unhappy. He's great until he has the money and has shipped the guitar, but if you have problems he becomes elusive. Usually there are no difficulities with the guitar or the shipping and the customer is happy and the seller is happy with the money, which is what's supposed to happen after all, but sometimes there are catastrophes. If you search for his name or website on the forum here you will get some of the stories. His SOP is that there is usually a time limit on returns, he has to personally approve the return but when the customer calls he is "traveling" or out of the office, etc.
Good luck. The unfortunate truth is that in the brave new world, research on the seller is as important as research on the item you're buying.
Hopefully you took time stamped photos of the boxing, the discovery of the problem, the shoddy packing and lack of protection for a $10,000 guitar.
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When buying overseas, the dealers know how difficult it is to claim your money back, and so often pull things they never would have if in the same country. However they also know how much more money a bad internet reputation costs nowdays. Go through with it, cause like ebay where most buyers would stay away unless sellers rep in 100% positive, a story like that won't be easily forgotten..
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