Gibson ES-175CC Pickup

**Iced Tea** · 11-01-2018, 10:24 AM

Hello,

I've just bought a 1979 ES-175CC and it's due on Saturday. It's in great condition and I got it at a great price. Everything looks good so fingers crossed it's a good one!

I have heard some of the Norlin ear Gibson weren't great quality control wise so I'll bear that in mind when I inspect the guitar properly.

I was just wondering, I've heard from august forum members Greentone and Fred Archtop that the CC pickups on these 175s are different from earlier pickups, different magnets, wire etc. I think Fred Archtop said it's closer to a humbucker sound than anything. Would it be worth considering swapping it out for one of the CC reissues pickups from the UK? I've heard they're the closest thing you can get to the original.

Also, I have asked a few questions in this forum over the last few months, and I just want to say thanks for all the expertise and advice I've got. This place is a great resource!

**Woody Sound** · 11-01-2018, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Iced Tea

Hello,

I've just bought a 1979 ES-175CC and it's due on Saturday. It's in great condition and I got it at a great price. Everything looks good so fingers crossed it's a good one!

I have heard some of the Norlin ear Gibson weren't great quality control wise so I'll bear that in mind when I inspect the guitar properly.

Awesome choice! Re Norlin, there are great guitars and bad guitars from Gibson throughout its history. I had a couple of fabulous Norlin guitars (both were ES thinlines.)

**TOMMO** · 11-01-2018, 01:47 PM

I have a couple of Norlin era Gibsons and they are excellent. I think the bad rep is mostly due to the fact that some specs had been changed (maple insted of mahogany for the neck for example). As for the pickup: it always amazed me when people consider a pickup change (or other parts for that matter) before even having played a guitar for some serious period of time...

**Greentone** · 11-01-2018, 03:53 PM

I love the ES-175/CC. Every example I have played has been one of my favorite 175s. This one, though, was special:
Gibson ES-175CC Pickup-es175cc_fullfront-jpg

Gibson ES-175CC Pickup-es175cc_fullfront-jpg

Yes, the CC pickup on these is--as far as I understand from everyone and everything I have ever learned--is a reproduction from Gibson, not NOS inventory of the 30s units that Gibson used from inventory up through the 60s.

**oldane** · 11-01-2018, 05:37 PM

It's hard to say how those old 1930s CC pickups would have sounded if they had been built today. The thing is that the magnets have weakened which have changed the sound to some degree depending on the degree of demagnitization. The recording technique back then was such that we can not trust the old records as an accurate source of the sound. Also the amps used back then sounded different from modern amps. The individual guitar the pickup is mounted in influences the sound - not two sound exactly the same. The guitar setup, the pick, the playing style, where you pick on the string, the kind of strings - all influence the sound. So there's many, many variables and confounding factors involved in the "true sound" of a CC pickup. I'd venture to say that the pickup itself is a minor part of it.

Some say that the CC pickups used in the 175CC were made from old leftover parts from the 1930s which were found in the factory by coincidence while others say that they were made from newly made parts but to the old specs. Still others say that the specs were slightly different. I don't know which is the truth.

IMHO, the only sensible thing to do is to set up the guitar to your liking, get the feel for it and tweak the sound to your liking on your amp. I'd be very surprised if you would gain anything other than a placebo effect from swapping the pickup to a freshly made CC of another brand (which is not identical to the old 1930s CC either). Any difference in sound will likely be so small that it can be levelled out with a slight turn of a knob on your amp/EQ unit. And BTW, does it matter if it has the "true" sound - whatever that may be? Isn't having a good sound - your sound, "true" or not - what matters?

**Gilpy** · 11-01-2018, 05:50 PM

I had a 175cc a while ago and found it to be a really nice playing and sounding guitar. Not really a versatile guitar. That pickup does one thing very well, and if that's what you're after, you'll be happy!

**entresz** · 11-01-2018, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

I love the ES-175/CC. Every example I have played has been one of my favorite 175s. This one, though, was special:
Gibson ES-175CC Pickup-es175cc_fullfront-jpg

Yes, the CC pickup on these is--as far as I understand from everyone and everything I have ever learned--is a reproduction from Gibson, not NOS inventory of the 30s units that Gibson used from inventory up through the 60s.

Are they amber inlays???
What a pretty guitar.

**icr** · 11-01-2018, 06:43 PM

If you do replace the pickup with the CC reissue pickup from UK, it would be nice to see a picture of the two pickups side by side. Any other distinguishing characteristics (like overall resistance) would be nice to know.

**hot ford coupe** · 11-01-2018, 08:19 PM

I had one also. It was a 1978 and the back of the headstock was marked prototype, supposedly one of seven. It played extremely well and was in mint condition. It even had the original plastic sheet on the pickguard when I bought in in 1991. The sound was smooth, deep and sweet as far as I could describe. I sold the thing and to this day, I think it was not one of the smartest things I ever did. I wish I still had it.

**Jabberwocky** · 11-01-2018, 10:43 PM

Here's Chris Whiteman with his new oh-so-fine Daniel Slaman and modern re-creation (CCUK?) Charlie Christian Blade pickup. A touchstone for a good CC Blade sound. Don't know if it is "historically accurate" but when it is good it is good.

Use that as your own yardstick for your ES-175CC.

Look up Jonathan Stout on how an aged original 1930 CC pickup sounds today.

Oh, congrats on the ES-175CC. 489 made between 1978 and 1980 is the story. I wonder where* they all went. I have only seen about 10 come up for sale since 2010. One was in Australia where a guy had bought it in Los Angeles, brought it back home and had the CC Blade removed and a humbucker put in its place, rout widened and sides covered with plastic... I came very close a few times to scoring one. Got a 2002 ES-150 CC Reissue a few years ago and then I stopped looking. What's the story on the 2002 Gibson ES150CC CC Blade and Super 400CC reissues? Gibson found a box of leftover parts.....

*dam autocorrect...tired of your shirt.

**Iced Tea** · 11-02-2018, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

It's hard to say how those old 1930s CC pickups would have sounded if they had been built today. The thing is that the magnets have weakened which have changed the sound to some degree depending on the degree of demagnitization. The recording technique back then was such that we can not trust the old records as an accurate source of the sound. Also the amps used back then sounded different from modern amps. The individual guitar the pickup is mounted in influences the sound - not two sound exactly the same. The guitar setup, the pick, the playing style, where you pick on the string, the kind of strings - all influence the sound. So there's many, many variables and confounding factors involved in the "true sound" of a CC pickup. I'd venture to say that the pickup itself is a minor part of it.

Some say that the CC pickups used in the 175CC were made from old leftover parts from the 1930s which were found in the factory by coincidence while others say that they were made from newly made parts but to the old specs. Still others say that the specs were slightly different. I don't know which is the truth.

IMHO, the only sensible thing to do is to set up the guitar to your liking, get the feel for it and tweak the sound to your liking on your amp. I'd be very surprised if you would gain anything other than a placebo effect from swapping the pickup to a freshly made CC of another brand (which is not identical to the old 1930s CC either). Any difference in sound will likely be so small that it can be levelled out with a slight turn of a knob on your amp/EQ unit. And BTW, does it matter if it has the "true" sound - whatever that may be? Isn't having a good sound - your sound, "true" or not - what matters?

That's sensible advice - I'm sure it'll sound great! I guess I just a bit worried the reissue pickup might sound a bit too dark or muddy.

**Iced Tea** · 11-02-2018, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Here's Chris Whiteman with his new oh-so-fine Daniel Slaman and modern re-creation (CCUK?) Charlie Christian Blade pickup. A touchstone for a good CC Blade sound. Don't know if it is "historically accurate" but when it is good it is good.

Use that as your own yardstick for your ES-175CC.

Look up Jonathan Stout on how an aged original 1930 CC pickup sounds today.

Oh, congrats on the ES-175CC. 489 made between 1978 and 1980 is the story. I wonder why they all went. I have only seen about 10 come up for sale since 2010. One was in Australia where a guy had bought it in Los Angeles, brought it back home and had the CC Blade removed and a humbucker put in its place, rout widened and sides covered with plastic... I came very close a few times to scoring one. Got a 2002 ES-150 CC Reissue a few years ago and then I stopped looking. What's the story on the 2002 Gibson ES150CC CC Blade and Super 400CC reissues? Gibson found a box of leftover parts.....

I saw that video too! His tone is exquisite - even, balanced and articulate.

The price I paid for the ES175CC was too good to pass up - it's even got it's original cable and accessories. I'll show some pictures when I get it.

**oldane** · 11-02-2018, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Iced Tea

That's sensible advice - I'm sure it'll sound great! I guess I just a bit worried the reissue pickup might sound a bit too dark or muddy.

Why should it sound muddy? It's a single coil pickup. Clarity and good note separation is a characteristic of single coil pickups - as opposed to some humbuckers (not all).

**Cunamara** · 11-02-2018, 05:39 PM

If that's the sound you want I think you're going to love this giitar. I think it is a wonderful sound and have CC style pickups- standard humbucker size, though, so missing the large cobalt steel magents- in two guitars. I love that wide, full spectrum sound without the compression that humbuckers usually have.

If it hums- and it will, a Electro-Harmonix Hum Debugger is supposed to cure it. Haven't tried one myself, it's on the Christmas list this year. Pat Metheny among others says it works great with his CC style Slaman to stop the hum without messing up the sound.

**Greentone** · 11-02-2018, 06:09 PM

entresz,

Yes. That guitar came from the factory with amber inlays. It also had a factory gray/silver case with Gibson on the top. I haven't seen another one like it.

The guitar played and sounded extraordinary--especially for a '79 Norlin guitar. My dealer/bandmate/buddy dropped it off at my house for a long-run trial. I had that guitar for about six months or so. Why I let that guitar slip away I will never know. It was "the one."

It was about as close to mint as a 25 year-old guitar is going to get, too. I was just temporarily nuts; that's all.

**Easy2grasp** · 11-02-2018, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Here's Chris Whiteman

Congrats on the 175cc! They are cool and I hope to have one some day.

Not to hijack this thread, but can someone take a moment and tell me where Chris Whiteman is keeping the magic flat pick that appears out of nowhere (0:39) and then disappears again (1:16) in this video? It is creeping me out in a David Blaine way.

**blille** · 11-03-2018, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Easy2grasp

Not to hijack this thread, but can someone take a moment and tell me where Chris Whiteman is keeping the magic flat pick that appears out of nowhere (0:39) and then disappears again (1:16) in this video? It is creeping me out in a David Blaine way.

Between the index and middle finger

**Iced Tea** · 11-03-2018, 12:57 PM

Update:

I just got back home from collecting the guitar. It’s very, very clean. The seller said it belonged to a relative and it hadn’t been played for some time. The strings look rusty and the frets have oxidised a bit, they could definitely do with a polish. The bad news is that I doubt the guitar had been tuned up for some time and it might’ve affected the neck. As soon as I tuned it up to pitch, pop went the high e string. It’s also fretting out badly at the 12th fret and the g string is fretting out completely as it’s too low to clear the last fret. There seems to be a lot of neck relief so maybe a truss rod adjustment and some new strings might straighten things out. The other issue is the action is about 2mm at the 12th fret but the bridge has no more movement down. It’s definitely going to need a proper setup, fingers crossed it doesn’t require anything as drastic as neck reset.

The good news is that it sounds fantastic! The tone is so full and creamy. Having never played a CC style pickup I can see why they are so popular among jazzers. You get such an even, responsive tone. Anyway here’s some pictures:

**Jabberwocky** · 11-03-2018, 02:20 PM

That's looks Under the Bed In the Closet unplayed! It looks barely 10 years old.

I'd adjust the truss rod by small increments, let it rest for 24 hours and then adjust it again. It has not been adjusted in such a long time, a full quarter turn at once is not advisable. Be patient. 1/16th turn at a time, maybe even 1/32nd turn at a time. But first first, back out the nut completely, clean and lubricate the threads, then try adjusting the truss rod. Just because the nut moves does not mean that the truss rod is tightening. A nut that is frozen in the threads applies torsional force on the entire truss rod. The truss rod twists along with the nut until it can twist no more and that is when you hear a sickening snap. But you think that the frozen nut is moving when it may not. It may also partially move down the threads and apply torsion on the truss rod. Better pay some attention and inspect it before taking the wrench to it. The truss rod carbon steel is soft and brittle. It is like twisting striped candy cane.

It has the low flat Fretless Wonders popular in the late 70s. I would get it new medium jumbo frets, 47095 or 47104 or larger. Your choice. A good time to re-level the fretboard and take out any warpage.

With taller frets you regain some adjustability of the brdge for string action at the 12th fret. Those flat low frets are throwing you off. You could also have the base sanded and reduced in height or the wooden saddle could be shortened. Check out the kerfed braces and see if they require re-capping.

It deserves a good set up, new frets and a bridge fitted to the top. I won't worry about neck reset yet.

It looks great, man. Just enjoy it. Now I know where 1 of the 489 went.

PS Those are some real nice curves on the body of the ES-175CC. Contrast that with flattened out boxy silhouette of the 1959 VOS Reissue. I cannot stop seeing a nekkid lady in your guitar. I blame it on that Hendrix Electric Ladyland UK Polydor cover.

**Easy2grasp** · 11-04-2018, 07:50 AM

That is a gorgeous guitar. I want, i need, gimme gimme!

**Iced Tea** · 11-04-2018, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

That's looks Under the Bed In the Closet unplayed! It looks barely 10 years old.

I'd adjust the truss rod by small increments, let it rest for 24 hours and then adjust it again. It has not been adjusted in such a long time, a full quarter turn at once is not advisable. Be patient. 1/16th turn at a time, maybe even 1/32nd turn at a time. But first first, back out the nut completely, clean and lubricate the threads, then try adjusting the truss rod. Just because the nut moves does not mean that the truss rod is tightening. A nut that is frozen in the threads applies torsional force on the entire truss rod. The truss rod twists along with the nut until it can twist no more and that is when you hear a sickening snap. But you think that the frozen nut is moving when it may not. It may also partially move down the threads and apply torsion on the truss rod. Better pay some attention and inspect it before taking the wrench to it. The truss rod carbon steel is soft and brittle. It is like twisting striped candy cane.

It has the low flat Fretless Wonders popular in the late 70s. I would get it new medium jumbo frets, 47095 or 47104 or larger. Your choice. A good time to re-level the fretboard and take out any warpage.

With taller frets you regain some adjustability of the brdge for string action at the 12th fret. Those flat low frets are throwing you off. You could also have the base sanded and reduced in height or the wooden saddle could be shortened. Check out the kerfed braces and see if they require re-capping.

It deserves a good set up, new frets and a bridge fitted to the top. I won't worry about neck reset yet.

It looks great, man. Just enjoy it. Now I know where 1 of the 489 went.

PS Those are some real nice curves on the body of the ES-175CC. Contrast that with flattened out boxy silhouette of the 1959 VOS Reissue. I cannot stop seeing a nekkid lady in your guitar. I blame it on that Hendrix Electric Ladyland UK Polydor cover.

Thanks for the advice! I’ve put tiny bits of rosewood in the slots of bridge where the d and g strings are, and that’s made the guitar playable although the bottom e and a strings aren’t great from the 12th fret up. I’m going to leave the truss rod to a qualified tech, I doubt she’s even had a trussrod adjustment in her entire life.

im going to take it a tech who’s really good. The frets thing is a bit of an issue. Low frets are fine on a Les Paul with 9 gauge strings but not a jazz box. I’ll have a chat and see what he thinks.

Now I need to experiment with strings! I’ve put some Thomastik 13 flatwounds in there but there a bit too mellow I think, I’ll might try something like Bebop 12s or even Martin Monels

**ESCC** · 11-04-2018, 07:11 PM

Congratulations on the ES175CC!

I bought a 1979 175CC new in 1980 (as per my avatar), still have the guitar, I doubt that I will ever sell it.

The fit and finish on mine is excellent, the cc pick-up, imho, is nothing like a humbucker in tone, it is what it is and provides a great "vintage" jazz tone.

I string mine with TI Swing 12s or 13s and typically only have to tweak the truss-rod once or twice a year.

Hope it meets your expectations after a proper set-up and that you receive much enjoyment from it.

**Iced Tea** · 11-05-2018, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by ESCC

Congratulations on the ES175CC!

I bought a 1979 175CC new in 1980 (as per my avatar), still have the guitar, I doubt that I will ever sell it.

The fit and finish on mine is excellent, the cc pick-up, imho, is nothing like a humbucker in tone, it is what it is and provides a great "vintage" jazz tone.

I string mine with TI Swing 12s or 13s and typically only have to tweak the truss-rod once or twice a year.

Hope it meets your expectations after a proper set-up and that you receive much enjoyment from it.

Thanks! It sounds amazing.

I've just taken it back to be looked at by my guitar tech. What he said was that the body has shrunk slightly by the neck joint. There's tiny bit of a ridge and some crazing of the finish around the neck joint. Along with the fact that the neck is a bit bowed because the truss rod is loose, it's pushed the fingerboard up where it meets the body resulting in the strings not clearing the higher frets. The nut is also too high as well. He thinks though he might be able to adjust things without resorting to having level the fretboard. Fingers crossed!

**Greentone** · 11-05-2018, 01:15 PM

Good news! I bet your tech _can_ do the adjustments needed w/o the level job. Great guitar.

**Iced Tea** · 11-10-2018, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Good news! I bet your tech _can_ do the adjustments needed w/o the level job. Great guitar.

Greentone, you were right! Just got it back from the workshop the other day. It’s playing great now. The tech straightened the truss rod, recut the nut, reprofiled the bridge and string slots and levelled the frets on the upper part of the fingerboard. There’s now a bit of room to play with on the bridge as and when required. I’ve also put on a set of Pyramid Monel 12s - they really suit the guitar and pickup, it’s got a nice snappy zing to it now.