Carbon Fiber Archtop Guitars

**jads57** · 05-21-2019, 04:12 PM

I think adapting to these guitars will not be that hard,unless you are Wed to the wood sound. Also these being flat tops will not have the midrange of a good wood archtop guitar.
Best of luck in your new purchases!

**iim7V7IM7** · 05-21-2019, 04:39 PM

Jim, we have a non-air-conditioned beach cottage on the shore in Rhode Island. We spend time there in August and September. The house can range from 10-35 degrees C and the % RH from 50-100%. The environment is totally destructive to my wood instruments. It tends to be towards the more humid end of the RH range.

A few years back, I purchased a Rainsong CH-OM1100NS. This is a 15.25” wide, 24.875” scale, 1.75” nut width, 12 fret instrument. I keep Elixir Nanoweb PB strings on it. I was happily surprised at how it sounded and played. Is it as good as my wood guitars? Hell no, but it sounds great for what it is and it allows me to make music. I can bring the guitar up to the cottage in July and bring it home in September. I can pick up the guitar after it sits through a week of temperature and humidity cycling and it still remains in tune.

Good luck with your purchase....

**gitman** · 05-21-2019, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I played one many years ago and loved it. That was my first experience with composite guitars.

The reason I'm working with Emerald on this is that I needed to replace my travel guitar and I really like the idea of the X7. It's not only a travel guitar, but with a 24" scale length, I can use it as a guitar to keep in standard tuning, something I really need for some projects I have planned. The X10 was really an afterthought resulting as much from a small financial windfall as any real need. They've also integrated the Krivo thinline humbuckers into their guitars and, with the right setup, that means that I can use these guitars as substitutes for electric archtops. That's really my plan. To me, they won't even really be acoustics. They'll be strung with light flat wound strings and setup for the way I play. Most of the time, that means through an amp and getting them to sound as close to my typical sounds as possible. And I think I should be able to get them pretty close.

OK, I think that makes it clearer to me. Provided that a true acoustic guitar is NOT at the center of things then
you might want to look into this : my experience with torrefied/baked/caramelized maple and alder have taught me that these woods move absolutely minimal compared to non-torrefied samples. With your expertise as a luthier it shouldn't be problematic to put together a semi-hollowbodied axe with a solid neck, all woods (maple or alder) torrefied and the rest just like your usual builds. A guitar like that shouldn't have a big problem with the changing temperatures and humidity levels. My (educated) guess ....

**Tal_175** · 05-21-2019, 05:16 PM

For carbons I'd go vintage, like 2013. Lol.
Seriously though are carbon guitars expected to age well or are they meant to be thrown out after 10-15 years?

**Jim Soloway** · 05-21-2019, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by gitman

OK, I think that makes it clearer to me. Provided that a true acoustic guitar is NOT at the center of things then
you might want to look into this : my experience with torrefied/baked/caramelized maple and alder have taught me that these woods move absolutely minimal compared to non-torrefied samples. With your expertise as a luthier it shouldn't be problematic to put together a semi-hollowbodied axe with a solid neck, all woods (maple or alder) torrefied and the rest just like your usual builds. A guitar like that shouldn't have a big problem with the changing temperatures and humidity levels. My (educated) guess ....

That was actually my first thought and I have long considered a Warmoth build with a roasted maple/maple neck. (And I'm also pretty sure that wold be a viable alternative) Then when I decided that I had to replace the Soloette, a travel sized guitar became the priodity. Kiesel had just announced that they were offering roasted woods so I considered a Kiesel Zeus but for reasons I don't really want to get into, that didn't work out. That's when I started to consider the Emerald X7 which really is a cross between a travel guitar and a parlor guitar. It also filled my desire for a guitar that I would leave in standard pitch tuning. I don;t really want to do that with a 25.5" scale length.

Once Emerald agreed to my electronics request, the order went in and I probably would have stopped there but suddenly I had a small financial windfall and a 25.5" scale length with some real acoustic presence looked really inviting. Plus the wait for the X7 is about 3 months whereas they can get me the X10 almost immediately

. It also replaced the locally built archtop that blew up. Hence the second guitar.

**Jim Soloway** · 05-21-2019, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

For carbons I'd go vintage, like 2013. Lol.
Seriously though are carbon guitars expected to age well or are they meant to be thrown out after 10-15 years?

They don't "age" like a wood guitar but they're pretty close to indestructible.

**rob taft** · 05-21-2019, 06:48 PM

Look forward to the sound clips. 4+ Years ago, I talked to Alistair Hay about an archtop but at that time I would have to eat all the development cost i.e. mold etc. As it turns out, I had a health issue which at the time pretty much eliminated any thought of a new guitar so I cancelled. I inquired about their archtop model a couple of months ago and while the cost didn't bother me, I just couldn't live with a 3 1/2" body depth on a 17" archtop. That said, if they had what I was looking for, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase a guitar from Emerald. It is run by an nice guy (Alistair), they have great customer support, and are reasonably priced.

**Cunamara** · 05-22-2019, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

That's really the big catch for us. In our apartment it can range from 3 to 36 C.

Sometimes on the same day! High altitude is a funny thing, even funnier closer to the equator.

Jim, looking forward to hearing demos of the guitar when you get it. I have played several carbon fiber guitars, mostly RainSongs, and so far have not found one that I could warm up to in terms of sound. Visually they're a very interesting instrument. Hoping some day to hear one that I like the sound of.

ISTR that one of our forum members builds carbon fiber or partially carbon fiber guitars.

**bohemian46** · 05-22-2019, 10:52 AM

Jim, I understand.. only a very few of the Paracho makers have learned to cope with the heat and humidity changes and have shops to control both. Given the complexity of arch top construction, this makes the situation more difficult.

I am intrigued by Emerald's nylon string version...

**ruger9** · 05-22-2019, 12:31 PM

+1 on the Rainsongs, if we're talking flat tops; the ones I played were excellent- sound and playing. If I had the disposable income (and the space) to keep one around solely for traveling/vacation purposes, I would. I was mightily impressed.

Actually, if Rainsong made a "foldable" travel guitar, that would be perfect for me.

**Fibertone guitars** · 06-09-2019, 02:49 PM

Recoring from studio. Guitar proved to be very easy to record, very balanced and clear tone.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-09-2019, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Fibertone guitars

Recoring from studio. Guitar proved to be very easy to record, very balanced and clear tone.

I listened to the whole thing and enjoyed it a lot. As you say, very balance with a clear tone. More than enough acoustic presence. Perhaps a bit too much high end for the typical taste on this forum but high is easy to round out when you get too much but impossible to replace when you don't have enough so that's probably a good idea. Very nice player and very musical demo.

A couple of thoughts for you from my personal perspective. I think you're overly concerned with trying to make peace with those who have very conventional tastes. That was your explanation for the wood fingerboard and the mainstream designs given your unconventional materials. I think that attitude is a mistake. Those who are seriously conservative and committed to tradition are not going to become more open minded just because of the body shape or the wood fingerboard. On the other hand, those who are willing to be more adventurous are likely to be discouraged by the limits you've imposed. My own interest was pretty much eliminated by the wood fingerboard, and I was very much in the market for a CG/Composite guitar. My attraction to these materials is driven to a large degree by my desire for a climate-proof instrument and the wood fingerboard would still leave me concerned about shrinking and expanding in our extreme climate. Being open to radical materials, I'm also willing to be much more open to radical designs and I saw no reason to be confined to historically mainstream shapes.

All of that being said, I really did enjoy the demo and I'm a great fan of CG/Composite materials. I hope you have much success with this.

**rlrhett** · 06-09-2019, 06:16 PM

I have to second Jim. I don't sell a lot of carbon fiber archtop guitars, but my approach has been the opposite. My guitars are not boat paddles. Their selling point isn't that they can go from the Peruvian jungle to the altiplano desert in one day and still play in tune. I chose a carbon fiber soundboard for tone --the stability and light weight of the instrument were bonuses. I was looking for something I could not find in a Gibson, not to duplicate a Gibson in CF. But again, this is an incredibly tiny niche market.

99.999% of buyers who want an archtop need it to say "Gibson" on the headstock, and need it to either be an L-5 or an Es-175. Full stop. They aren't interested in arguing the merits of new construction, and are not going to be swayed because you kept a couple of things traditional. I believe for most buyers you could take a vintage Gibson and remove the headstock veneer replace it with a piece of dyed black holly with no logo and, even with no other changes to the instrument, most would argue how the tone was wrong, how the neck profile was wrong, how the pickups were wrong, etc. You would have a hard time giving it away.

Emerald makes boat paddles that sound quite good. They aren't exactly the same as a good wood dreadnaught or OM, but they are really quite nice sounding and you can plunge a toilet with them and nothing happens. That is something that Martin/Taylor/Gibson don't offer. Nor does Emerald try to make them look like Martin/Taylor/Gibson. So they've found a market.

It sounds like you have found some customers already, so take my comments however you would like. But for me making a CF Gisbon clone was not anything anyone seemed interested in.

**Fibertone guitars** · 06-10-2019, 02:16 AM

Thank you for your kind comment Jim.
What what?

I offer carbon fiber fretboards! I offer wooden, or CF fretboard. There is a difference in price, and I leave this choice to a customer. Guitar I made for myself has a wooden fretboard, and I never had any problems. Guitar is 5 years old now.
About design of guitar - first guitar that I made had no binding on the body, and people noticed it and commented on this. I got a lot of comments that binding is missing. I could redesign guitar completely, but the change in material was a huge factor, so I decided to go with classical shape. I understand how a wooden guitar works, and keeping traditional shape made it a lot easier for me to tune this material to what I wanted it to sound like - these guitars are very loud acoustically, and perfectly balanced. All strings give same volume, all over fretboard, there are no dead spots...
I am now working on a guitar for a guy that commissioned me last year and wants another,but different dimensions...

**arielcee** · 06-10-2019, 05:35 AM

I'm a sucker for thick body/doublecut combo. Very nice sound and playing. Sounds like some good sustain.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-10-2019, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Fibertone guitars

Thank you for your kind comment Jim.
What what?

I offer carbon fiber fretboards! I offer wooden, or CF fretboard. There is a difference in price, and I leave this choice to a customer. Guitar I made for myself has a wooden fretboard, and I never had any problems. Guitar is 5 years old now.

I guess I either misunderstood or (more likely) forgot. I thought you were offering wood fingerboards only. As for wood fingerboards lasting, I now live in the high desert in Mexico. The climate here is brutal on wood guitars and fingerboards.

**Fibertone guitars** · 06-11-2019, 07:16 AM

I am offering also carbon fiber fretboard, bridge and tailpiece, so guitar is really all carbon fiber, except hardware...

**Jim Soloway** · 12-27-2019, 05:49 PM

Just thought I'd give this a bump and see if anyone else wanted to talk about CF guitars.

**DRS** · 12-29-2019, 03:30 PM

Sure

I'd like to get a 12 fret acoustic CF with a cutaway but a full scale (24 3/4 or 25 1/2")
Rainsong makes several that have this spec.
I think I'd prefer a flat top for acoustic sound as I have owned an archtop and the acoustic sound never really appealed to me. I'd rather have either a full electric PAF humbucker sound like an L5 or an steel string flat top like my Larrivee SD 50 but with a cutaway.

I live in coastal British Columbia so humidity is perfect for an all solid wood guitar but I am intrigued by CF and like the natural look of a black CF guitar.

**Cunamara** · 12-29-2019, 06:08 PM

I've only played a couple of CF guitars, both Rainsongs and both 10+ years old, maybe 15. To my ears both sounded very bad, not unlike the plugged in sound of 1970s Ovations except acoustically- that plasticky, pinched, quacky, nasal sound. Uggh. I couldn't put them down fast enough. However, the sound in your second clip is much, much nicer than that! Was that recorded acoustically or through a pickup/amp?

The sound of Jim S's Emeralds through an amp is also better than I expected. The sustain qualities are different than with wooden guitars and as I like sustain-y instruments that's a plus. I'm not into "the thunk" sought by many. Hopefully luthiers using this material have been able to figure out how to make it work, as the first generations of CF guitars were awful to my ears. I have not heard a current Rainsong, either, and would expect those have improved as well compared to the ones I played.

**jim777** · 12-29-2019, 08:30 PM

I don't play my Emerald to sound like something I could get from someone else. It sounds wonderful to me, and I love that it has no sharp edges to the body either. It rings like a grand piano, as I stated before, and the clarity and volume of the fundamental is simply superb. I don't know why anyone would use a material other than wood and hold themselves to the constraints of wood - that seems moronic and shortsighted to me. Emerald is also making archtops now, but I am mostly playing Telecasters for jazz now so I'm not in the market for one.
Emerald Kestrel Archtop - Emerald Guitars

**krusty** · 12-29-2019, 09:10 PM

It appears the top on the Emerald is actually flat. Nice looking, though. I’m rather interested in the Fibertone, tbh. I love the idea of a full carbon archtop

**dhd** · 12-30-2019, 07:48 AM

One of the nicest features I like about my Emerald X20 and X30 is the sound hole location.
I love how the sound is directed to the player.

**dhd** · 02-07-2020, 03:12 PM

I prefer carbon fiber rather than wood flat top acoustic guitars for the obvious advantages when exposed to humidity and temperature fluctuations.
A key feature I like about my carbon fiber Emerald X20 and X30 over similar sized wood flat top acoustics are the bevels and contours of the body which makes my Emeralds the most comfortable flat top acoustic guitars I've ever played. Another feature I like is the sound hole location and how the sound is directed to the player.

Not being able to try before buying was a big concern I had before getting my current CF guitars.
However, I was able to read tons of comments from folks who owned these instruments, heard an abundance of sound clips and saw a bunch of video reviews. I had gained a very good perspective of what these instruments could offer me and felt more confident in my decision before placing my order.

It's great there's some discussion here about Carbon Fiber Archtop Guitars, I wish there was more.
I haven't seen much information or discussion elsewhere.
I'm not aware of many manufactures of CF archtop guitars.
Only knowing of 2 brands (already discussed here) that offer all CF construction archtops (Fibertone and Emerald).
RunningWithTheWindGuitar's includes some CF in their archtop guitar construnction but only for the top and bracing.

We've seen the increased popularity of the carbon fiber flat top acoustic guitars and I think CF archtop guitars will also draw increasing interests but at a slower pace.
I think the potential carbon fiber archtop guitar customer needs more information.
Sound clips of CF archtop guitars compared to other popular wood archtop guitars would be good and video reviews would be helpful too.

**Cunamara** · 02-07-2020, 03:50 PM

With the stiffness of CF, perhaps it would be possible to build a good sounding nylon string archtop as the top could be quite thin and responsive. ISTR Daniel Slaman made an archtop nylon string called "The Dome" or something like that, but from wood IIRC.

Another issue with CF- with the imminent depletion of old-grown forests and of fine tonewoods, it may be smart to look for alternatives that are less dependent on unsustainable natural resources.