'50s Hofner and DeArmond Rhythm Chief - A Swingin’ Couple!

[radiofm74]

I have just put together my second “acoustic archtop + DeArmond” rig. Official excuse: I can’t live without one, I live between two cities and I don’t want to have to carry a guitar every week.

I am mighty pleased with what I have found and wanted to share.

I was looking for a carved top 16” (I prefer them), and while perusing Reverb and “mercatinomusicale" entries for an old Epiphone (I love them), I fell on this Höfner 465 – carved top, big neck, 16”, very beautiful, a refret job, and not far from the price of a used Loar (I love Loars, have a LH-700 and was looking for a second one as my #2, incidentally). Got her yesterday, got her checked by a luthier, and she’s in great conditions except for some superficial scars. While checking for cracks, he found a date inside (’53, seemingly) and parallel braces. No truss rod but neck very straight up to 15th fret (after which there is a “dive”, but I never get there anyway ;P). Set her up with monel 12s: she has volume, and a mellower voice than the Loar. A lovely, lovely guitar. The neck is surprising: a very curvy board with a relatively narrow nut. It takes some getting used to but overall, despite the 25’5” scale, she’s a softer play than the Loar even with the same action. Love ‘em both, really.

In parallel, I found a one-owner DeArmond 1000 in good condition (all cables changed and some work to be done on the control box tab), for a high but not unreasonable price. Got him home too and after some trepidation (crackle and hiss from the cable it came with…) was thrilled to find that it’s perfect, that it can fit my Höfner, and that it sounds glorious (and… different from my FHC while being the same general flavour).

I am head over heels for this swingin’ couple!

[radiofm74]

Here is a family picture with her Sino-American sister and American cousins. There is also the date scribbled inside – I think it’s 53, a slash, and something unreadable just after (initials?). Not that I really care. Anyway, non-truss-rod neck on an old Höfner indicates 50s. She’s a 65 years old blonde German, still charming

[M-ster]

Congratulations. We need to hear this!

[radiofm74]

You will! I plan to do sound clips tomorrow!

[cmajor9]

That's a beautiful old Hofner you've found there!

+ 1 on sound clips. I've heard a lot about 465's by reputation, but have never had the chance to play one. This model is unique in having a rosewood back (as shown in radiofm74's photos). Curious how the sound is different to more common woods such as maple and walnut.

[omphalopsychos]

That is amazing. I'm especially interested in your thoughts between the RC1000 and the FHC. I keep switching my preference back and forth. The 1000 has more clarity, but the FHC has more character. For that reason, I've usually preferred the RC on 24.75" guitars and the FHC on 25.5". I think the FHC has the reputation of being the inferior pickup, based on price, but I wholeheartedly object to that view.

Also, I hope you got a good deal on the RC. For some reason, the vintage ones sell for about the same as it would cost to purchase and professionally install the reissues. Aside from the tone, the vintage ones have the significant advantage of the mounting platform and control box. The control box makes these as quiet as humbuckers with the (infinitely superior) single coil tone.

[radiofm74]

That is amazing. I'm especially interested in your thoughts between the RC1000 and the FHC. I keep switching my preference back and forth. The 1000 has more clarity, but the FHC has more character. For that reason, I've usually preferred the RC on 24.75" guitars and the FHC on 25.5". I think the FHC has the reputation of being the inferior pickup, based on price, but I wholeheartedly object to that view.

Also, I hope you got a good deal on the RC. For some reason, the vintage ones sell for about the same as it would cost to purchase and professionally install the reissues. Aside from the tone, the vintage ones have the significant advantage of the mounting platform and control box. The control box makes these as quiet as humbuckers with the (infinitely superior) single coil tone.

I agree with everything you said. I am wedded to the single coil sound. And based on my very little time with both I would also firmly object to the view of FHCs being in any way inferior. My first impression is that the RC is a bit more polite, and the FHC is a bit rawer. Both have wonderful tones. As for where to bestow them, I really don't have a choice. The meatier FHC won't fit (well) on the 25"5’ Höfner. I'll do more tests and let you know. One way or another, DeA + acoustic archtop is my favorite in archtop sounds .... "infinitely superior"... the only threat could come from a Charlie Christian PUP. One day I'll probably be in a position to make that comparison too

[JazzNote]

Wow, what an interesting bridge conception. I believe it enables you to accommodate the inserts in a variety of four positions suitable to your individual needs. I'm not so sure about the conception of the nut. Do i see two nuts and two zero bars? Please explain ..... thanks!

[Hammertone]

The 465 had a carved spruce top, with laminated back and rims. The outer lamination is rosewood. The model number is a good tip-off that the 465 was Hofner's top-of-the-line 16" archtop - you know, compared to the 464, 463 462, 461 and so forth. Germans!

They all transitioned to laminated tops in the late 1950s, although the occasional later model with a pressed solid spruce top pops up. The neck is typical high-end 5-piece construction, but tinted darker to complement the rosewood.

The 465 pretty much sounds the same as the other 16" archtops from Hofner that came with carved tops - the 464, 463, 462, 461, 460, 459, 458 and 457. and they all pretty much sounded the same once they got laminated spruce tops. The 465 is a rare model for Hofner, and it's hard to find nice clean ones. Yours looks great. Neck profiles did vary, but there are lots of narrow nut/deep neck style to be found throughout the 1950s.

The bridge is a Teller Model 103, either a 103P (for palisander, which is German for rosewood) or a 103E (ebony), which Teller still makes for Hofner. Hofner has used it on higher-end archtops since the early 1950s, as did Lang and a few other West German builders. It adds just a bit of zing to the string.

The guitar has a w/b/w laminated plastic string spacer behind a zero fret (typically jumbo fret wire). The "bow-tie" inlays in the fingerboard are set into ebony, which is set into a rosewood board with lines of white contrasting purfling above and below. Hofner used this fretboard on the 465 as well as on the 17" Model 468 and Model 470. Later in the 1950s they reversed the order of the rosewood and ebony.

The lilies-of-the-valley headstock inlay was also used on the 465, 468 and 470, and found its way onto many other higher-end Hofner models over the years, including the Verythin, President, Club 60 and more. It was subsequently reintroduced as the standard inlay for the New President/Vice-President, Jazzica, Verythin Classic/Standard, and Chancellor.

Also, if you measure the scale length more exactly, you may discover that it's more like 25 1/4" than 25 1/2".

[radiofm74]

Wow, what an interesting bridge conception. I believe it enables you to accommodate the inserts in a variety of four positions suitable to your individual needs. I'm not so sure about the conception of the nut. Do i see two nuts and two zero bars? Please explain ..... thanks!

I think Hammertone said it all! What you see is the nut, the zero fret and the inlays. And yes, you have individually adjustable saddles. I think I have to move the whole bridge back a little and reposition them, but that’s for another day (or maybe today if I get the time).

[radiofm74]

The 465 had a carved spruce top, with laminated back and rims. The outer lamination is rosewood. The model number is a good tip-off that the 465 was Hofner's top-of-the-line 16" archtop - you know, compared to the 464, 463 462, 461 and so forth. Germans!

They all transitioned to laminated tops in the late 1950s, although the occasional later model with a pressed solid spruce top pops up. The neck is typical high-end 5-piece construction, but tinted darker to complement the rosewood.

The 465 pretty much sounds the same as the other 16" archtops from Hofner that came with carved tops - the 464, 463, 462, 461, 460, 459, 458 and 457. and they all pretty much sounded the same once they got laminated spruce tops. The 465 is a rare model for Hofner, and it's hard to find nice clean ones. Yours looks great. Neck profiles did vary, but there are lots of narrow nut/deep neck style to be found throughout the 1950s.

The bridge is a Teller Model 103, either a 103P (for palisander, which is German for rosewood) or a 103E (ebony), which Teller still makes for Hofner. Hofner has used it on higher-end archtops since the early 1950s, as did Lang and a few other West German builders. It adds just a bit of zing to the string.

The guitar has a w/b/w laminated plastic string spacer behind a zero fret (typically jumbo fret wire). The "bow-tie" inlays in the fingerboard are set into ebony, which is set into a rosewood board with lines of white contrasting purfling above and below. Hofner used this fretboard on the 465 as well as on the 17" Model 468 and Model 470. Later in the 1950s they reversed the order of the rosewood and ebony.

The lilies-of-the-valley headstock inlay was also used on the 465, 468 and 470, and found its way onto many other higher-end Hofner models over the years, including the Verythin, President, Club 60 and more. It was subsequently reintroduced as the standard inlay for the New President/Vice-President, Jazzica, Verythin Classic/Standard, and Chancellor.

Also, if you measure the scale length more exactly, you may discover that it's more like 25 1/4" than 25 1/2".

Thanks a lot HT! I had done some research before buying but here’s the full picture from the expert. AND I am happy to report that my misgivings about the rhythm chief were unfounded as you well can see!

[Ol' Fret]

...
The bridge is a Teller Model 103, either a 103P (for palisander, which is German for rosewood) or a 103E (ebony), which Teller still makes for Hofner. Hofner has used it on higher-end archtops since the early 1950s, as did Lang and a few other West German builders. It adds just a bit of zing to the string. …

The "zing" added to the string by these Teller bridges fully depends on the effort put up during the set-up of the bridge. First, the precise string slotting of the fret saddles, suitable for the respective string set, is required, and, second, the firm seat of the fret saddles in the wood slots and upon the wooden upper part of the bridge. A magnifying glass will tell it.
Both new and old bridges may require easily one or two hours of effort. If you think you could do it in 15 minutes - "zing"!
A correctly adjusted 103 Teller bridge should add no "zing" or snappy noise at all to the string.

A design or manufacturing flaw? Not at all! Violin makers (the main clientele of Teller) have to spend considerable time to fit, check and rework even the most expensive bridge blank to the respective instrument - not just fit the underside of the bridge base.

Btw., the same is for the zero fret feature: no parasitic noise added, only advantages. The zero fret conception is often misunderstood, and many former German guitar manufacturers also did not pay enough attention to this; they just had to use the zero fret wire that they actually were able to get their hands on. Often an imbalance between the size of the fret wire used for the fret board (let's say, medium) and the one used for the zero fret (like vintage jumbo size) can be seen, which can ruin the major benefit of a zero fret feature.
In the meantime most agree that it would be best if the crown of the zero fret would be the same, or - preferably - 0.2 to 0.3mm taller than the rest. But this is a different story.

[Greentone]

Jackpot! Great payout, too. Nice guitar and nice pickup.

That's a beautiful Hofner. With the carved top you have a real winner there. Bet the neck is a big hunk of lovely C-shaped glory, too.

I used the FHC for about 35 years on my archtops. It's a great pickup. However, I have always preferred the 1000. GREAT pickup! You really scored, there.

Enjoy them both.

[radiofm74]

Jackpot! Great payout, too. Nice guitar and nice pickup.

That's a beautiful Hofner. With the carved top you have a real winner there. Bet the neck is a big hunk of lovely C-shaped glory, too.

I used the FHC for about 35 years on my archtops. It's a great pickup. However, I have always preferred the 1000. GREAT pickup! You really scored, there.

Enjoy them both.

Hey Greentone so nice to have you around! Accurate description of the neck I am in love with both my DeArmonds. That’s the jazz sound I have in my head. From now on I’ll keep an eye on the market for the “amps” side of the equation ;D

Today I’ve worked on intonation and general set-up. I’ve spent a good hour and a half getting the hang of it, checking intonation, checking if the lil saddles were well seated (thanks for the cautionary words Ol’ Fret!) and checking the general geometry. I am well pleased with the results. The bridge is quite ingenious I must say.



I have also put together the promised sound clip



It’s a quick’n’dirty job. The general character of the acoustic sound is fairly well captured (AudioTechnica Pro70 into an Apogee Jam into Garageband). The electric sound does not reflect the sound in the room terribly well. The live sound is a lot richer and rounder in the bass, and I’d say all in all much better. But this will do as my first attempt. It’s through a tweed champ, with a Sennheiser e609, through Jam and Garageband (all sims disabled).

The little solo is not my own. It’s a transcription of the one of my heroes, Remo Palmieri.

Hope you enjoy and forgive the playing

[omphalopsychos]

That is just awesome.

An acoustic archtop with a Dearmond, one of my favorite setups. Just mute the pickup to comp, and turn it up to solo.

The beauty of the RC 1000 especially is how well it works with bronze strings. However, not all bronze strings are made equal. Here's a tip. Try GHS vintage bronze strings. They have a thicker steel core than most other bronze strings. Therefore they tend to balance very well with the RC 1000. I learned this after months of experimenting.

[radiofm74]

That is just awesome.

An acoustic archtop with a Dearmond, one of my favorite setups. Just mute the pickup to comp, and turn it up to solo.

The beauty of the RC 1000 especially is how well it works with bronze strings. However, not all bronze strings are made equal. Here's a tip. Try GHS vintage bronze strings. They have a thicker steel core than most other bronze strings. Therefore they tend to balance very well with the RC 1000. I learned this after months of experimenting.

Thank you! I put monels on because they are what I had lying around at the moment and because I though it was required in order to have good output with the pickup. But I could not fail to notice that the pickup sounded good also with the very light bronze strings the guitar had on when I bought it. I will try that at next string swap. Thanks!

[Wildcat]

Hammertone,

You seem to know a lot about "Swinging" German ladies. Care to share any stories?

The 465 had a carved spruce top, with laminated back and rims. The outer lamination is rosewood. The model number is a good tip-off that the 465 was Hofner's top-of-the-line 16" archtop - you know, compared to the 464, 463 462, 461 and so forth. Germans!

They all transitioned to laminated tops in the late 1950s, although the occasional later model with a pressed solid spruce top pops up. The neck is typical high-end 5-piece construction, but tinted darker to complement the rosewood.

The 465 pretty much sounds the same as the other 16" archtops from Hofner that came with carved tops - the 464, 463, 462, 461, 460, 459, 458 and 457. and they all pretty much sounded the same once they got laminated spruce tops. The 465 is a rare model for Hofner, and it's hard to find nice clean ones. Yours looks great. Neck profiles did vary, but there are lots of narrow nut/deep neck style to be found throughout the 1950s.

The bridge is a Teller Model 103, either a 103P (for palisander, which is German for rosewood) or a 103E (ebony), which Teller still makes for Hofner. Hofner has used it on higher-end archtops since the early 1950s, as did Lang and a few other West German builders. It adds just a bit of zing to the string.

The guitar has a w/b/w laminated plastic string spacer behind a zero fret (typically jumbo fret wire). The "bow-tie" inlays in the fingerboard are set into ebony, which is set into a rosewood board with lines of white contrasting purfling above and below. Hofner used this fretboard on the 465 as well as on the 17" Model 468 and Model 470. Later in the 1950s they reversed the order of the rosewood and ebony.

The lilies-of-the-valley headstock inlay was also used on the 465, 468 and 470, and found its way onto many other higher-end Hofner models over the years, including the Verythin, President, Club 60 and more. It was subsequently reintroduced as the standard inlay for the New President/Vice-President, Jazzica, Verythin Classic/Standard, and Chancellor.

Also, if you measure the scale length more exactly, you may discover that it's more like 25 1/4" than 25 1/2".

[radiofm74]

Hammertone,

You seem to know a lot about "Swinging" German ladies. Care to share any stories?

oops. Was there an unintentional double entendre? Honni soit qui mal y pense!

[Wildcat]

Hammertone is a true scholar and gentleman, with worldliness unknown by most.

oops. Was there an unintentional double entendre? Honni soit qui mal y pense!

[sgosnell]

And it's probably good that it's unknown.

[feet]

you're probably right. berlin gets feisty at night and it's already pretty freaky during the day. it isn't one of my favorite cities for the architecture

weirdly, one of my biggest german regrets is not seeking out hofners while i was there. it just kept not happening.

[2bornot2bop]

Great demo. I thought I was back in the 40's. And I wasn't around in the 40's!

[WillMbCdn5]

Oooooooooooo!!! perversion, debauchery and creativity !!!!!!!!!! I like this thread and yes great looking guitar )) I have a FHC from 1949 and yep it is a very honest raw and dynamically rich pickup.

Will

[Hammertone]

you're probably right. berlin gets feisty at night and it's already pretty freaky during the day. it isn't one of my favorite cities for the architecture weirdly, one of my biggest german regrets is not seeking out hofners while i was there. it just kept not happening.

Höfner guitars from the 1950s and 1960s are easy enough to find. If you ever have a hankering for one or more, I have a bunker full of them right here in the New World. Maybe I'll dig up a few pix.

[radiofm74]

Höfner guitars from the 1950s and 1960s are easy enough to find. If you ever have a hankering for one or more, I have a bunker full of them right here in the New World. Maybe I'll dig up a few pix.

Dear all, I am now looking for a good case (I like softshell cases best, provided they are protective enough; e.g. the one that came with my Loar). I am also looking for a stand that won’t ruin the finish (I have Hercules and K&M foldable but have read conflicting things about both and nitro). Any suggestions? I know both are huge topics on this forum but I can’t seem to find any conclusive indications.

I am also unsure about the exact dimensions of the 465 (is that 16.5” lower bout with 3.5” depth?) and about what finish is on it. Hammertone please come to the rescue! What I do know is that it has a lot of arch both on the top and back, and that a normal acoustic guitar case won’t work. I’d like something that is arched and will also tolerate my leaving the Rhythm Chief & control box on when I close the lid.

Any suggestions most welcome!