2019 Gibson Lineup

[rpguitar]

Wishful thinking, perhaps. I see very few name players in any genre using Gibson anything let alone the iconic jazz boxes of last century. And what working pro can afford to have a 4.5 K instrument on a $100 gig?

I own a couple but, the high end stuff (4/5K +), I liken more to fine furniture: very much a luxury in this economy.

Fortunately for those of us who may sell valuable Gibson archtops in the future, the market for them is not generally comprised of working pros or name players!

"This" economy (it's very good for some, perhaps not for others)... requires some of us to spend untold thousands on iPhones, kids' activities, music streaming services, internet services, and all manner of things that provide only shallow pleasures. Damn right I'm going to set aside some coin for my prized instruments. Life is too short and I want to own and play them. Several of them.

As long as there are people like me, there will be a market. I'm not worried.

[andrew42]

There are lot of boutique makers these days, thanks to the iconic Gibson archtops (not "jazz boxes") of the last century. And there is a difference between the top artists and busker grade players. Finally, the more expensive, rare, irreplaceable the guitar, the less practical a road warrior it is. That goes for D'Angelicos (Benson had one for a long time) and D'Aquistos (Steve Miller had at least two for a long time.)


The last time I saw Russel Malone at Catalina he was playing a Super 400 (I guess he sold his Buscarino - not cheap BTW).

Peter Bernstein plays a custom hand made archtop (Ziedler?) Not cheap.

Anthony Wilson plays a Montelleone (prices in the nose bleed section)

A few Gibsons here (although Kurt R plays another make/model that is not exactly cheap).

Seven Contemporary Jazz Guitarists Worth Checking Out | Guitarworld

Not sure if you agree with me or not, but you illustrate my point that many name players aren't playing Gibson boxes (I'd add Martino and Dan Wilson to the list). These guys aren't working pros imo; they are way next level leaders in the art form, other worldly in most cases.

I'd also point out that I'm not talking about the museum pieces either, rather laminate guitars that are 4k. Is Gibson an iconic and influential brand? You bet, but there is nothing inherently special about an ES275 (they are pretty nice, though). If I'm making 100 bux at the joint downtown or whatever, I may think twice before I buy it. A well-built partscaster can be a better working tool for 1/8th the price.

Also, I'm not referring to buskers as working pros either...more guys like us who do it professionally or semi-professionally for $100-200 a night (often, even that rate is a stretch). There is also another class of players who can hang at the top level (def not me) who for whatever reasons are not "famous". That was the guy I was referring to.

For whatever reason, Gibson has not stayed relevant with young players across the genres. It's become an exclusive club akin to owning a Harley or a sports car. Very much a luxury item, in other words.

Finally, the real death knell is that, more often than not, Gibsons, and especially the archtops we all know and love, are coveted by the "dad" demographic, a possible sign that they will not be in great demand in years to come outside our relatively small circle of appreciation.

[Stringswinger]

You buy a car and drive it for 10 years and it will only be worth ten percent of its original cost. So what? You got your money's worth during that 10 year period. Gibson guitars may follow a similar deprecation path as time goes on. We have gotten spoiled playing them for almost nothing. Those days are coming to an end. So what? We still get to enjoy the guitars. Nothing in life is free......

[andrew42]

You buy a car and drive it for 10 years and it will only be worth ten percent of its original cost. So what? You got your money's worth during that 10 year period. Gibson guitars may follow a similar deprecation path as time goes on. We have gotten spoiled playing them for almost nothing. Those days are coming to an end. So what? We still get to enjoy the guitars. Nothing in life is free......

Couldn't agree more. I still shop around for a used L5, but I'm also a nearly 40 with a good day job. I wouldn't buy as an investment is all, or expect our point of view to filter down to the 20 somethings.

[Drifter]

I still believe that what people want is Gibson product, with Benedetto quality, and at Fender prices, lol.

Maybe. But have you looked at Fender prices lately?

[m_d]

For what it's worth I noticed the other day that Eastman's lineup seems to be greatly reduced too. For instance their single PU 175 inspired model was no longer available.

[citizenk74]

Fortunately for those of us who may sell valuable Gibson archtops in the future, the market for them is not generally comprised of working pros or name players!

"This" economy (it's very good for some, perhaps not for others)... requires some of us to spend untold thousands on iPhones, kids' activities, music streaming services, internet services, and all manner of things that provide only shallow pleasures. Damn right I'm going to set aside some coin for my prized instruments. Life is too short and I want to own and play them. Several of them.

As long as there are people like me, there will be a market. I'm not worried.

Well said, Sir, well said!

[Jazzstdnt]

Maybe. But have you looked at Fender prices lately?

No but that's not saying much for present company.

So what's out of whack? Do tell.

[Jazzstdnt]

Not sure if you agree with me or not, but you illustrate my point that many name players aren't playing Gibson boxes (I'd add Martino and Dan Wilson to the list). These guys aren't working pros imo; they are way next level leaders in the art form, other worldly in most cases.

For whatever reason, Gibson has not stayed relevant with young players across the genres. It's become an exclusive club akin to owning a Harley or a sports car. Very much a luxury item, in other words.

Finally, the real death knell is that, more often than not, Gibsons, and especially the archtops we all know and love, are coveted by the "dad" demographic, a possible sign that they will not be in great demand in years to come outside our relatively small circle of appreciation.

OK, well I disagree.

Furthermore, Pat Martino had a Gibson model in his name just a few years ago - from the Cu$tom $hop (if you get my drift). Not too far from his old L5-S (no cheapie either). And now? He has a signature Benedetto, a name not associated with "affordability". It is also a very nice boutique instrument. Dan Wilson was playing a nice Gibson a few years ago as well, so there you go.

You've made points about both archtop body style, and guitar price. So on price, you're incorrect. One down, one to go.

Body style? Well, I don't think that the "he who has more money owns better guitars" dynamic is a new reality. I'm sorry, I'm being kind - I know it's not.

And that has been true for classicals, acoustics, archtops, fancy PRS solid bodies, whatever. For only... 125 years or more.

Parting shot - Have you ever been to a nice piano shop with Steinways that cost as much as a house? You might want to take note of the location of such stores, relative to the neighborhood demographic$. And have you also noted how long they've been there (as in decades) and somehow manage to keep going?

In short, everything that you think is new, is actually old, very old.

[andrew42]

OK, well I disagree.

Furthermore, Pat Martino had a Gibson model in his name just a few years ago - from the Cu$tom $hop (if you get my drift). Not too far from his old L5-S (no cheapie either). And now? He has a signature Benedetto, a name not associated with "affordability". It is also a very nice boutique instrument. Dan Wilson was playing a nice Gibson a few years ago as well, so there you go.

You've made points about both archtop body style, and guitar price. So on price, you're incorrect. One down, one to go.

Body style? Well, I don't think that the "he who has more money owns better guitars" dynamic is a new reality. I'm sorry, I'm being kind - I know it's not.

And that has been true for classicals, acoustics, archtops, fancy PRS solid bodies, whatever. For only... 125 years or more.

Parting shot - Have you ever been to a nice piano shop with Steinways that cost as much as a house? You might want to take note of the location of such stores, relative to the neighborhood demographic$. And have you also noted how long they've been there (as in decades) and somehow manage to keep going?

In short, everything that you think is new, is actually old, very old.

Actually I totally get that people with money will buy expensive things. I'm commenting more on how run of the mill, dare I say irrelevant the brand has become in the broader market. That is certainly new.

[wolflen]

I bought a les paul classic antique new in 2006..it was flawless..someone still cared then..I would not buy one today..I played one at a local shop and was very disappointed with the quality/play-ability..and some kind of synthetic fretboard..no longer selling rosewood boards..legal thing..??

I tried several Fender teles,,2k+ for the one I liked..seemed way overpriced..their superstrats are getting high priced too..the one I liked is also near 2k...I dont think their quality is matching the price--and they seem very light on customer service..at least to me

The Suhr classic pro is a superstrat style that gets high marks on quality and reviews and customer service..and its in the 2k range also

I think the big companies .. well they are just big..the folks at the top are not paying attention to the day to day and that attitude rolls downhill..it takes "alot of work" for a successful company to go bankrupt..think General Motors..

[Jazzstdnt]

Actually I totally get that people with money will buy expensive things. I'm commenting more on how run of the mill, dare I say irrelevant the brand has become in the broader market. That is certainly new.

I think that you need to define "broader market".

What has been their market share and top line sales figures in the last 5-10 years?

THAT answers the question. Not my opinion, or yours.

[andrew42]

I think that you need to define "broader market".

What has been their market share and top line sales figures in the last 5-10 years?

THAT answers the question. Not my opinion, or yours.

By broader market I mean those who are not 40+ year old jazzers or archtop collectors lol. ie. the rest of the world. The fact that they went bankrupt speaks to their demise as a go to brand...don't need to be a market analyst to figure that out.

Gibson’s Bankruptcy is a Cautionary Tale about Corporate “Innovation”

Interesting read...

[rpguitar]

The fact that they went bankrupt speaks to their demise as a go to brand...don't need to be a market analyst to figure that out.

I saw you linked to an article, but their failings were not due to sales of their core product, that being guitars, or that nobody buys guitars any more. Rather, Henry J. (CEO) got them in major debt by attempting to expand the company into largely irrelevant areas like consumer electronics, in order to become a "music lifestyle" company. This failed with spectacular results.

Gibson sells plenty of Les Pauls. And they sell enough archtops, too. So, not that... other stuff.

Read this article instead:
Beloved guitar maker Gibson faces crushing debt that's due this summer

[Jazzstdnt]

I saw you linked to an article, but their failings were not due to sales of their core product, that being guitars, or that nobody buys guitars any more. Rather, Henry J. (CEO) got them in major debt by attempting to expand the company into largely irrelevant areas like consumer electronics, in order to become a "music lifestyle" company. This failed with spectacular results.

Gibson sells plenty of Les Pauls. And they sell enough archtops, too. So, not that... other stuff.

Read this article instead:
Beloved guitar maker Gibson faces crushing debt that's due this summer

Thank you.

Some people are either (1) not paying attention, or (2) casting aside information/facts if those facts fail to align with their chosen narratives.

[Bflat233]

With respect to relevance to the young (of age and at heart), are you guys tracking Greta Van Fleet?

These guys have gone nuclear in the last six months. Nearly every show in the country is sold out. I point to them because the lead guitarist is playing ... a Gibson SG. His original (used in this video of a year ago) finally gave up the ghost a few months ago, and Gibson gave him a 2019 '61 re-issue. In any case - 24M people have watched this video.

Heads-up - you might want to turn-down your volume before clicking this link. There's rock and roll ahead.

[andrew42]

I saw you linked to an article, but their failings were not due to sales of their core product, that being guitars, or that nobody buys guitars any more. Rather, Henry J. (CEO) got them in major debt by attempting to expand the company into largely irrelevant areas like consumer electronics, in order to become a "music lifestyle" company. This failed with spectacular results.

Gibson sells plenty of Les Pauls. And they sell enough archtops, too. So, not that... other stuff.

Read this article instead:
Beloved guitar maker Gibson faces crushing debt that's due this summer

Thanks for the article, but why say "read this instead"? Can we not read both? At any rate, I think the article I shared supports my position...not sure I ever said people aren't buying guitars, rather Gibson is no longer a go to brand. I could have better clarified and said lifestyle brand, but my point is that it doesn't have the brand power it used to.

We ascribe certain character and lifestyle attributes, or mystique, to the instruments we play, much like the cars we drive of the clothes we wear. There was always a certain clout in playing a Gibson. Really, it has been a lifestyle brand for the last 2-3 decades, and people have been willing to pay a premium for that. They are more than guitars for some. It's true they didn't invest well and were greedy, but that may have been mitigated if the brand had the power to sell basically anything with a Gibson logo (which was the case not too long ago). 30 yrs ago they faced less competition. They also had some really bad ideas. The world has changed, and their predicament reflects that.

We asked musicians why guitar companies like Gibson are struggling and how to revive them - MarketWatch

There is some interesting perspective in this article, too. My take is that they have lost some of their market clout, and that maybe buying a guitar and expecting it to go up in value is wishful thinking. Also, as our demographic begins to "circle the drain", people may not want the archtops we covet. Should you buy one/another one? Hell yah, why not? I plan to, but I just like em and I play everyday like most of you here. Ultimately, time will tell if their value will see an upswing, but I could care less. That was my initial point, though I may not have stated it as eloquently as possible. We're all busy, right?

At the end of the day, discussing it is fun, so thanks for that and any other articles people care to post. keep playin yer Gibsons .

[Aant]

They've revealed more about their 2019 line-up (nothing jazzy): NAMM 2019: Gibson’s epic new 23-strong guitar line-up revealed | MusicRadar .

[JaxJaxon]

I would guees its mostly the money troubles that are driveing this change. they cant afford to make a Hollow arch top on speculation any more. they take more time and resourses than a semi or solid body guitar. It wouldnt suprise me if they stoped doing Carved tops and go to pressd form. Unlsee you specal order.

[Midnight Blues]

I would guees its mostly the money troubles that are driveing this change. they cant afford to make a Hollow arch top on speculation any more. they take more time and resourses than a semi or solid body guitar. It wouldnt suprise me if they stoped doing Carved tops and go to pressd form. Unlsee you specal order.

I hope that’s not the case.

[znerken]

So if you were to order a custom Gibson Archtop today, what would it be? The vintage prices seem high enough?

By the way, are any of the pros playing Gibson's these day?