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I recently purchased my first electric quitar, an Epi ES-175 with a VOX AC4TV. I have been working on dialing it in; new strings, bridge adjustment, tone adjustment, amp settings and position, etc.
I am close to what I want but two issues are left that seem to indicate some hardware:
1. The pickups do not seem to have the same "excitation threshold" for all the strings (e.g., the high E string seems to need much more pick energy to fire the pickup as the B string). I kind of stroke a string rather than plucking it sharply and this makes it hard for me to play smoothly.
2. I have to keep the tone at full bottom on both the amp and guitar to keep the high end from being way too bright (a common complaint in the forums) and to keep down the feedback. So my tone is close to the mellow sound I want but it lacks clairity.
From reading the various forums it seems like the SD SH1 set might be a good fix. (I thought about the Seth Lover but it is not waxed and I don't want to add any more feedback potential than I have to.)
As a newbe I am not sure if any of this makes sense so I am looking for opinions.
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11-09-2009 12:26 AM
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I think Epiphone's ES175 is a pretty darn good guitar for the money, in standard configuration even. I played one from a fellow guitarplayer on a session and it played well and sounded just fine.
Some suggestions from me for your issues:
1) try using heavier strings or only a heavier string for the high E. It's a common trick among jazzguitarists to use another B-string instead of the high E, because the high E can sound and feel thin. The fact that you then have an E and B string of equal thickness you will hardly notice. I do this on a particular Framus guitar I own and it results in a much more lively and vibrant E-string.
2) I have a SD SH-1 ('59) in my Epiphone Sheraton and indeed it's a bright humbucker with a very clear top-high (on some amps even a bit shrill when you hit the strings hard). But I find that rolling back the tone blurs it quite quickly also, so it might not be the solution for you, unless you use very smooth (lineair?) pots for tone. Personally I would like to change it to Gibson's Classic '57 in my Sheraton. In my Japanese ES175 copy (a Condor from the 70ies) I have a Gibson Burstbucker #1 that I like a lot in there: it manages to sound both dark and brown and clear at the same time somehow. The Classic '57 is according to common opinion the ultimate pick-up for "smooth" tones, the Burstbucker supposingly sounds raunchier with some treble bite, but in my ES175 it's maybe that feature that still gives defenition when I roll back the tone (which I do on all my guitars when playing jazz)
Lastely: the electronics (wiring, pots, capacitators) are probably not the best. Upgrading these can also "open up" the guitar I suspect, but don't expect wonders.
Good luck!
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11-09-2009, 10:45 AM #3Archie Guest
You didn't mention whether you tried raising the polepiece under the high E string.
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Darn... why didn't I think of that?
Originally Posted by Archie
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Originally Posted by Archie
I had the very same issue with my Guild X-700 - in particular when plucked with my pinky finger. I found that raising the pole piece as Archie suggested helped tremendously.
Good Luck and Enjoy your Epi 175 (I had one too)
BTW, I converted the Epi 175 pickups to Seymour Duncan Seth Lovers (neck and bridge PU) and was quite pleased with the difference in tone range. I ultimately sold it to a fellow in Switzerland.
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I echo the suggestion of adjusting the pole pieces. I also agree with Little Jay about the Gibson Classic 57. I am not sure there is a better jazz bucker out there. I like the Bennedetto buckers in my Forshage pretty well.
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Thanks for all the feedback.
1. I did as Little Jay suggested and replaced the high E string with a B string. The sound definetly got "fatter" and seemed to be better matched with the other strings (definite progress). However, I then really became aware that what was also missing were harmonics and sustain. (The string was not the same brand so this is a little suspect, but probably not too far off.)
2. I had played a little bit with the pole pieces, but since the info I could find on how to adjust them said little more than to make small adjustments, I stopped at about 3/4 of a turn. Encouraged by all the comments about making this adjustment I went ahead and kept turning until something happened. At about 2 1/2 turns, I could hear some sustain and hamonics. At 4 turns it seemed things started to go bad in other ways so I backed off a little and played for a couple of hours. Very good progress.
When I was testing strings I tried only 11s, which seemed pretty big to me since the only thing I had played previously were classic guitars. The set I like best are A'darrio Jazz Chrome Flatwound 11s. (I tried other stings that were quite a bit more expensive.) I will get some flatwound 12s and see where that gets me.
Little Jay - If I still find I want to try some different PUs I will definetly replace all the electronics (if only to get rid of the junky 3-position swich that I think feels like a wart on a nice guitar). I really do like the guitar, it is perfect for what I do with it and I think the looks are great. It's just that I am an engineer and to me "the world is just of bunch of sub-optimezed toys" (a quote from Dilbert).
X-500 - Did the Seth Lovers make the hollowbody feedback problem worse?
Thanks for the help and I will let you know how things progress.
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...that should be "sub-optomized toys"...
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I have a charlie christian humbucker on my epi broadway, It's great !
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hahaha! I like that! I always fiddle around with my guitars too, to make them better and they usually do! (and I'm not even an engineer...) Originally Posted by tonedeaf
Last edited by Little Jay; 11-12-2009 at 08:12 AM.
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Got a pic? I´d love to see it! Originally Posted by nado64
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Hey, we don need no stinkin feedbuck! Originally Posted by tonedeaf
Seriously, I don't recall a feedback issue with the Seth Lovers. I do remember that it definately gave the Epi ES-175 a "fatter" tone using the neck pickup. That was my complaint with the stock Epiphone pickups. The neck seemed to bright.
Good luck and enjoy your new guitar!
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Keep and set the 175's VR:7～8 positions.
Picking the neck end by extra heavey picks.
Use the round tone speakers.
Also you must know 175's goodness sounds.
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Continue.
I cheked your amp-sounds on YOUTUBE,pretty good,but one knob tone control.
Set the tone knob at the 9 o'clock positions.
Set the amp non feed back place and volum.
"Humbuking Pickup Adjustments" (by Gibson )
1/16" from the under-side of the string to the top of the pickup when the last fret of the fingerboard.
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The picture of my humbucker : Originally Posted by theo
I think epiphone pickups are not suited for jazz tone.Last edited by nado64; 11-12-2009 at 07:28 AM.
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Thanks to all the advice I am getting a much better sound. The response from the strings is much more consistent accross all the strings. The sustain is now too much but nearer what I like. It is still too bright (and nado64 may be right about the epi pickups) but I am going to do some more work and see what happens.
kawa left some good suggestions. I had done a lot of what he suggested but based on his comments I think I have raised the poles too high and left the pickup too low. So I am going to work on that tomorrow. It seems the correct setup might manage the sustain better and smooth out the brightness a little bit.
I also ordered a few different sets of 12s. Should have some results from those in a few days.
Thanks again for the help.
kawa: I am not sure what this means: "Keep and set the 175's VR:7～8 positions"
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kawa is a knowledgeable person, I've noticed his contributions in other threads. (Obviously his mother tongue is not English, so we need to apply a little effort to fully understand his suggestions.)
nado64 is also obviously knowledgeable, check out his past posts.
(I hope that this isn't interpreted as arrogant or patronizing.)
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tonedeaf,It's a one of melow jazztone positions for control the 175's characters,but also I like "10"position's wilde sounds.
randyc,Thanks your comments,also I'm an engineer.
Yes I joining from Japan,thanks your helpfull.
Best regards.
PS:"Twin" meaning is two speakers model as you know.
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My Crazzzzzy Works
My '67 ES175DN's included 2pcs this sheet.
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Picks, it's important for your sound. Try differents picks. Originally Posted by kawa
Personnaly, I like Dunlop Jazztone 207.
Thank you Randy for your comment, I think I'm simply curious.
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Well, I think I am beginning to figure some of this stuff out.
I did some online searches for details on how to go about setting the pickup height and pole settings. I believe I had the poles too high and the pickup too low. So I changed those and think I have a setup that is somewhat close. The string response is definetly more linear and predictable, I can now pick much more naturally.
I tried several sets of strings. The set I like the best so far is a set of Gibsons L5s with a wound 3rd string, but the 1st and 2nd strings were "dead" -- it was like they came from a different planet. So I put on a 1st and 2nd string of a heavier guage that I liked from a set of A'ddarios.
I also figured out that the tone/volume adjustments are not very linear, I had started making adjustments in a very methodical, linear fashion (just like a damned engineer). It took some random settings to get a feel for how the pots actually interact. I find I get better results by working in "ranges" rather than by the numbers.
The pickup adustments, tone adjustments and the strings now give me a very nice "round" tone that is consistent across all the strings and has improved the playability immensly. I can now use finerging and picking techniques musically instead of mechanically (if that makes sense).
I have tried a number of different picks, but all of them are soft picks. The tone I get is a good tone and would probably work great for bluesy stuff like John Hammond does, but it is still too bright for what I want and so I use the pick to soften things up a bit -- I sort of brush more than pick the string. The one I like best is a cheap Dunlop (the one you can put advertising on).
Soooo, I think I have a very playable guitar witha nice tone, but it is still too bright. I have read lots of pickup reviews and I think I am going to make the change. (If for no other reason that it seems like a right-of-passage for an electric guitar player.) I am trying to decide between the Seth Lover and the Classic 57s. The general sense I get from the reivews is that either one will help get me to where I am trying to get, with a slight edge going to the 57s in a hollow body.
Thanks for everyone's help. Any other comments before I waste, I mean invest, my wife's hard earned cash will be appreciated.
I still have some more strings I am going to try and I plan to get some stiffer picks to play with.
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Two things. First, buy your Classic 57 on ebay and save some bucks. Just make sure there is plenty of lead wire left. Second, I am not sure about the amp you are playing thru. Others here may know about it. Some amps are tough to get a traditional jazz tone out of. You might take it to a store and try out a few. Originally Posted by tonedeaf
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Another guy ready to throw new pups in a guitar with no clue about pots.
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CG, that may be a good point. I've always thought that an invaluable tool for anyone who likes to tinker with musical instruments/amplifiers is a small graphic equalizer, maybe 8 bands or so .... If one is unhappy with one's instrument, using the graphic EQ might help to analyze the problem (which might be, as you suggest, inadequate control in the guitar OR in the amplifier).
I have an old MXR EQ (well, actually my Uncle has it now) and it has been very useful over the years, especially considering the very modest price.
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