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  1. #1

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    I know this is highly subjective, but just can't get passed the tone of a Jazz guitar using a blend of a magnetic and an acoustic pickup system as demonstrated here;




    With that said, does anyone know if it would be possible to install a system such as this under the same jack?
    Or, and in the event that this wouldn't work, whether a stereo Jack could be used to bring the two signals into a mixer?
    Last edited by JohnBee; 08-10-2018 at 04:25 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    this is been a thing with flat top acoustic players for a while now. dual sources, and dual source pickups. i do it with all of mine and it sounds great. however, all of mine are combined internally, have active circuitry and so on, so that they both come out of the same jack. to combine two separate sources as in the video, they'd both have to be powered individually (if they aren't passive) and then combined at some point. if you want that some point to be inside the guitar and coming out of one jack, you'd have to get fancy and possibly add a preamp of some sort. or drill two jacks, one for each source.

    could be wrong, but i think that is how it works. every electric with a piezo that i've seen has had two separate jacks. but i haven't seen many. i'm sure you could do some type of blender pot, but the have to be combined at some point, either internally or not. i don't think you could just piggyback an extra source like that.

  4. #3

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    Good demo, thanks for posting.
    I really liked his tone from the magnetic PU alone. Not too excited over the transducer PU though.

  5. #4

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    I once had a Gibson L-7 with a Kent Armstrong magnetic floater and a K&K Pure Archtop transducer system wired together with a stereo endpin output jack. It required a TRS (stereo) cable and a two-channel preamp to mix both pickup signals before going into one amplifier input jack. The L.R. Baggs Mixpro is one example of a dual channel preamp. The Baggs manual for the Mixpro says, "A standard application would be a pickup such as the Ribbon Transducer or magnetic pickup on the tip and a mini-microphone on the ring."

    Another alternative is a TRS 1/4" stereo cable from the guitar output with a splitter to two mono 1/4" jacks, each into a separate channel on a two-channel acoustic amp, like the Henriksen Bud, Acoustic Image, Fishman, etc.

    In the end, I decided it was kind of a pain. It's still electric sounding.

  6. #5

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    I did this on two guitars. I routed the K&K definity and my magnetic pickup to the same stereo jack. In theory you can blend the signals through the same mono output jack, but I think it’s a bad idea. The K&k really benefits from a preamp. The way I worked this out was through the stereo jack. The K&k signal then goes through a TC Electronic Body Rez pedal, which gets rid of a lot of the quack that people hate about piezoelectric transducers and makes the sound much more natural. For amplification with this setup, I use a Schertler David or a Henriksen Bud which have to separate amp channels so that I can EQ them separately.

    I think thw outcome is still something a thing a little too compressed for traditional comping, it the blended sound is very nice to give a little bit of roominess and air to the sound. Here are a couple of demos of guitars with this setup. I typically would never record directly into my interface without micing the amp but I did it for both of these just to demonstrate that you can get a decent natural sound from the electronics alone.





  7. #6

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    I am an addict of mag pu + transducer ! Even my strat and my tele have a tranducer inside.


    But there are two conditions to be satisfied with a dual preamp.

    -A phase invert option.
    -A powerful and generous EQ, since besides EQing lo/mid/hi to taste, there will probably be one or two nasty
    frequency peaks (that are almost inherent to transducer PUs) that will have to be tamed with one or two very narrow parametric EQ.

    An inexpensive and flexible solution is the Zoom A3, used in those vids below.

    However i never got a "great" acoustic sound with just the transducer alone, but already just 1/3 of the mag PU volume changes everything.
    Still electric sounding, but with a certain depth.
    I still like all magnetic sound but i feels a bit 2D in comparison.
    For example, on my tele i have a mainly electric sound, but just a small amount of transducer makes it
    sound like expensive shit.
    Personally, since i am not a jazzman, the pure acoustic sound i like best anyway is a flat top sound (cedar/mahogany preferably).

    Also a drawback is that a transducer picks up a lot of rather unwanted noises : squeak of the thumb behind the neck (baby powder!), rubbings, hits on the pickguard, and sometimes even the sound of a fretted note between the left hand finger and the nut !



    Kent Armstrong handwound 12 poles humbucker and JJB electronics double transducer.
    D'addario half round acoutsic strings.

    First vid is more acoustic. It's an impro so it is a bit slow to start, but if you hold on there are several aspects of the mag+transducer sound. Not jazz at all.
    Second is Naima, guitar/koto duet.





  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    I did this on two guitars. I routed the K&K definity and my magnetic pickup to the same stereo jack. In theory you can blend the signals through the same mono output jack, but I think it’s a bad idea. The K&k really benefits from a preamp. The way I worked this out was through the stereo jack. The K&k signal then goes through a TC Electronic Body Rez pedal, which gets rid of a lot of the quack that people hate about piezoelectric transducers and makes the sound much more natural. For amplification with this setup, I use a Schertler David or a Henriksen Bud which have to separate amp channels so that I can EQ them separately.
    Thanks for the valuable feedback. Based on what you've said, I'm thinking I'd be better off running a stereo jack, and splitting the difference at the Di box toward the mixer. After which, I can run active inputs with the proper gain on the acoustic pickup;


    Acoustic + Magnetic Pickup = Pure Gold?-s-l1600-5-jpg
    this will require a 1/4 stereo jack however
    Last edited by JohnBee; 08-10-2018 at 02:16 PM.

  9. #8

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    I always wanted to test one of these on an archtop with mag+ ac-PU:
    MixPot - Noll Electronic

    Bit so far didn't found the time (and nerves, lol).

    I still think that for my imagined sound the best would be to pre-filter the ac-PU (or both) before mixing. On the ac-PU I'd probably filter out the low to low-mids (highpass filter).

  10. #9

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    I have a Jarrett Zaffiro that I had built for me 10 years ago (they are out of business) - kind of a chambered Les Paul with the Ghost PU system, that combines the transducer pickup with synth output. Nice guitar, but the transducer output is combined with the mag pickups after the tone pot and it is extremely bright. After watching this stuff, I think I need to figure out how to put a tone pot in there somewhere. It's all on 9 volt power, which means if the battery goes dead, I don't even have mag output. Never really wound up using it the way I wanted, still have my GR-55 sitting around. Too much work, when I can just plug my L5 into my Twin and go for it.

  11. #10

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    I have a Kent Armstrong 12-pole piece humbucker (magnetic) together with a barbera soloist transducer (piezo) on my Comins 16” Classic archtop. It requires have a alternative ebony saddle made to hold the Barbera. I have separate volume controls for each on my finger rest. I find it works best with both PUs wide open using a stereo cable into my AI Clarus 2R Series III with a Buscarino Chameleon speaker.

    Each PU has an independent channel. I control their relative volumes at the amp. I find this avoids phasing challenges vs. when I contril it at the guitar. I use the KA set at a higher volume and the Barbera set down for added ambience (e.g. an 70/30 to 80/20 mix). I think you really need a two-way cabinet with a HF speaker to get the best effect. Basically, I try to create what you as a player are hearing from your instrument through the amp.


  12. #11

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    I'm experimenting with a Tonedexter. It's phenomenal for K&K equipped flat tops. It's better than you would think for oval hole flat tops with a Sunrise. Haven't tried in on a 12 pole Armstrong floater archtop yet but soon.

  13. #12

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    Another possible option, although not exactly what the OP asked for:

    IK Multimedia | iRig Acoustic Stage - Advanced digital microphone system for acoustic guitar

    I keep meaning to try this but have not gotten 'round to it.

    Notice that you can plug your magnetic into the control box (with a 'blend')
    and the control can be calibrated to a specific guitar.

    I have not enjoyed any piezos, ever, so I butt in with this, sorry.

  14. #13

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    One thing to be careful of on the iRig Acoustic Stage: the mic part may not fit an archtop. It works fine on most flattops and it fits over the f hole of my Godin 5th Avenue acoustic archtop because the top is thin, but it won't fit my other archies.

  15. #14

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    I love this thread.
    JohnBee, great video demonstration. Excellent playing.
    i see a Barbera transducer in my future. I love the sound of the acoustic guitar mixed with the magnetic pickup.
    right now I achieve that with open back headphones, and low volume with my regular pickup driven with a sound processor.
    But in the future I will achieve this with a nice high quality transducer and regular pickup amplified in stereo.
    Thanks again for the great demo.
    Joe D

  16. #15

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    I think that a phase option is a must. Otherwise you have one chance out of
    two to get less bass and a nasal single note sound.
    That's why i got rid of my K&K dual preamp.
    IMO you need this and a powerful parametric EQ if you to don't want to hate transducers.
    Unless you just add a tiny bit.
    At least that's the conclusion i came out with for myself.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    Another possible option, although not exactly what the OP asked for:

    IK Multimedia | iRig Acoustic Stage - Advanced digital microphone system for acoustic guitar.
    One of my student has one, and it's surprisingly good and inexpensive.

    But this wire, all the time ....

    Also, and this derail out from normal jazz playing, you just don't get powerful enough
    low end with microphones, which is just fine unless you wanna use your guitar for percussion,
    pardon the heresy.

    Like Petros Klampanis : He kicks ass ! (Maybe you heard him with Gilad Hekselman)


    Last edited by xuoham; 08-20-2018 at 03:32 AM.

  18. #17

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    12 pole KA here too ...

    1 knob for mag
    1 knob for sbt

    Acoustic + Magnetic Pickup = Pure Gold?-dsc_0185-jpg

  19. #18

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    Aren't the Parker guitars (Fly, Hightfly) specifically designed to give you three options with the flip of a switch?
    1) Magnetic pickup
    2) Piezo pickup
    3) variable combinations of the two

    I've used my Parker P-44 on jazz gigs (with heavier strings), and have gotten interesting sounds using all three options.

  20. #19

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    The Yamaha AEX-1500 (aka the Martin Taylor signature model) has a really nice warm-sounding floater (IMO) which combines with a piezo output, blend-able and EQ-able via a dedicated side panel. Sorry to admit that I’m clueless as to whether the output is stereo-splittable since I’ve always simply used it out of the one jack via a standard 1/4” cable, mixing just enough piezo into the signal to be barely heard as a nice acoustic sheen.

    For more info, see this thread...
    Yamaha AEX1500

  21. #20

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    Do they still make those?

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Do they still make those?
    No. But Godin LGX-SA will also get you a mag+piezo blend from a single mono plug (not sure but maybe Parker Fly too). It also allows you to go into separate amps with two outputs (if you use just one output, you get a blend). It's not a hollow body though. It's a chambered mahogany body (nice resonance however) with a maple top. Great guitar to get convincing jazz blend and having access to Les Paul and split single coil sounds.

  23. #22

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    It is not too difficult to do, you just install a piezo system under the bridge, and wire both pickups and piezo to a stereo jack, and then use a stereo cable. I did it once on an archtop and on a gypsy guitar (passive systems), and also installed the graphtech thing on a tele once, complete with active electronics. The passive undersaddle system worked fine and i would recommend it if you want that sound. However, the sound result wasn't that appealing to me, and i didn't like the stereo jack and cable, so after a while i got rid of them, and just used a boss acoustic simulator pedal for faux acoustic sounds.. No batteries, no complicated systems, close enough sound

  24. #23

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    Yeah I got tired of the cables and pedals. The airiness sounds annoying with a band, and if I want to hear the guitar when I play solo, I can just turn down the volume.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by medblues
    No. But Godin LGX-SA will also get you a mag+piezo blend from a single mono plug (not sure but maybe Parker Fly too). It also allows you to go into separate amps with two outputs (if you use just one output, you get a blend). It's not a hollow body though. It's a chambered mahogany body (nice resonance however) with a maple top. Great guitar to get convincing jazz blend and having access to Les Paul and split single coil sounds.
    Agreed. That being said, I recently sold an LGX-SA (replaced it with a double-cut, fully hollowbody Brian Moore CS 'C55 EH' w/piezo and 13-pin); being polite about it, the Godin simply doesn't get much of a hollowbody archtop tone at all. But, of course, the Yamaha AEX-1500 easily does and would make for a splendid archtop tone even without the cool extra feature of the piezo. Really nice tones on the Godin for sure, especially for the LP and Strat stuff (plus the MIDI!)... but it's just not that jazz archtop tone. Of course, all IMO and IME.
    Last edited by ooglybong; 04-13-2019 at 07:05 PM.

  26. #25

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    Turns out that the ToneDexter doesn't do much with magnetic pickups. Not an Armstrong 12 pole or even a Sunrise. They are great for piezo or K&K equipped flat tops though. Maybe someone will try it with a piezo equipped archtop sometime.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooglybong
    Agreed. That being said, I recently sold an LGX-SA (replaced it with a double-cut, fully hollowbody Brian Moore CS 'C55 EH' w/piezo and 13-pin); being polite about it, the Godin simply doesn't get much of a hollowbody archtop tone at all. But, of course, the Yamaha AEX-1500 easily does and would make for a splendid archtop tone even without the cool extra feature of the piezo. Really nice tones on the Godin for sure, especially for the LP and Strat stuff (plus the MIDI!)... but it's just not that jazz archtop tone. Of course, all IMO and IME.
    Thankfully, I have several nice archtops with different tones. Before I got my cheaper Epiphones, when I worried about feedback, I was able to fool myself by blending the piezo and magnetic pickups of the LGX-SA but nowadays I don't even try that. I should blind test myself and see if I can hear the difference one of these days.

  28. #27

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    And another way to approach that tone territory is simply putting bronze (acoustic) strings on an archtop, provided that your pickups can handle them.

  29. #28

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    I did this with an archtop that was too boomy in the bass when amplified with the magnetic pickup and the pickup was not adjustable, it worked beautifully.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Do they still make those?
    No, they don’t. But you can find them quite easily in the used market.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  31. #30
    Both videos sound fantastic, really enjoyed them. Your playing is great on these!

    Coincidentally today I started trying to work out an arrangement of Naima on a solo archtop - I had never played it (so never thought about the chords/bass), and my first thought was I'll play it in A (not A flat), to get some open strings, and lo and behold, I just happened across this discussion with your video.

    Your version is excellent though, and I can't touch that type of tone with my setup, so now I am intrigued to get something like that. But that said, seems like your touch and fingers (and technique) are contributing greatly to that tone (as well as dialing in the right EQ/etc.), so it seems like some serious work went into getting such a great sound, aside from just having the equipment.

    I really like how the koto blends with the guitar as well - they are very complementary, and you are both playing really interesting and tasty lines that really sound beautiful.

    Quick question - are you using half wound bronze strings, or using steel strings?

    Thanks again for the clips and describing your setup.

  32. #31

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    Slaman Jazz Pauletta.

  33. #32

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    I really like the sound of the two pickups blended.

  34. #33

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    That is a sweet guitar. Only $5500...

    Anybody have any experience with the Teles with piezos?

  35. #34

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    I use this quite a bit with my Parker P-44 when I play shows. You can get some interesting sounds.
    It doesn't really work for jazz though, IMHO.