-
This is not acceptable. Tell him the Jazz Guitar Forum is watching.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
-
05-28-2018 01:19 PM
-
Sorry man, but this blank statement doesn't have any basis on any known law of physics... hell, not even on quantum mechanics, for that matter. Originally Posted by Gustavo Eiriz
Sorry if your feelings get hurt in the process, but unless you're prepared to back it up with hard, verifiable proof, it's just too ridiculous to let it go unnoticed.
Let the rain of fire begin!
-
While I agree about not naming and shaming at this point, as that would not likely help the OP, it is the OP who holds the cards and not the luthier. There is a contractual agreement between the two of them which- in writing- specifies the design of the guitar. The luthier is in breach of that contract. This would be a small claims court kind of thing and enforcing it from New Zealand would be impractical, to say the least, but the point of fact in the law could be subtly- or perhaps not so subtly- made clear to the luthier. Originally Posted by feet
When I had my bathroom remodeled and later a garage built, there was a contract with the person doing it. All changes to the project- and there were a few- as it progressed were noted in writing. It was very clear and documented which protected both me and the contractor. I appreciated the professionalism, which is why he got the second project to build the garage. I had a custom bike made a few years ago, same deal- contract, diagram, details specified, mid-stream changes also documented. Everybody was happy at the end. "A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend."
-
who? Originally Posted by djg
-
I reread all the replies. It surely is a strange situation - you custom order a guitar and specify what you want, the builder tries to convince you to order it with 2 pickups, you insist on 1 and pay. And later he says "oops it has 2 pickups" and then does everything he can to not refund your money and insist you take it as is or you have to wait until he sells it (read WHEN HELL FREEZES OVER), boy I would want to close this deal, get the guitar and try it with an open mind and once you are done with him then name him here. As a public service.
I'm sorry when I eat in a restaurant and order the veal and the waiter tells me "hey our chicken is better" and brings you the chicken entree you know what you'd do...
I'm truly hoping when you see the guitar you fall totally in love with it. But I've ordered a lot of custom built guitars from Mr. Wu and his selling point is "you get your dream guitar, just as you asked for it". On the occasional instance where fellas have ordered from him and not gotten 1000% what they asked for (slight difference in shading of the burst, LITTLE stuff) Ms. Lora, his order writer and guide to those who order, works with the customer. Either offering to remake it exactly as requested, knocking off a little on the price, or in some instances gets Mr. Wu to fix the damn problem... THAT to me is an ideal custom build experience...
My best to you on this...
Big
-
My advice as to how to proceed is based on being decisive, firm and showing urgency.
1. Based on what you've learned here, and other things you've already considered, make the decision and let the man know what you have decided.
2. Do it quickly. This is getting into the ' festering' stage, and won't get any better the longer you delay clearly voicing your decision.
Good luck !
-
Who is this? And it may not hurt him if his reputation is in the "must have one of these no matter the cost" class. It may not hurt him but the crap a bad or dishonorable builder does to the status of other builders may be adverse. One farm in Arizona sells bad lettuce and sells enough so they don't need to worry about a few cases of E.coli, but it hurts many others. Originally Posted by djg
Responsibility and a good secure relationship is about more than whether you have a backlog of orders.
But enough on this. I know if a guitarist is thrilled about an instrument they ordered, they share it on the forum. It's one of the valuable services this on line community provides. OP, I'd just like to be aware of any builders that are causing you or any future buyers anxiety and frustration. Didn't it ever occur to you to wish that someone had said something so you could've made an informed decision? If I'd gone through what you'd gone through and you decided to go ahead, might you have been more explicit in your emphatic insistence that this is what you want? Would you at least feel some comfort in knowing that you'd gone into this knowing what the dangers were?
You seem like a nice guy, not wanting to make waves or cause any loss of sales for your builder, but perhaps you might see it as public service. Perhaps that builder needs to learn professional practices.
Someone had a bad experience with UPS. People weighed in. It played into my decision not to use them. Someone had a bad experience with Gibson's packing practices. At least a few were grateful that they didn't have to re-live that experience.
Misery loves company, yeah we feel for you. You won't share the cautionary aspect of your story? Maybe somebody else will when it happens to them?
David
-
Wow. I just read this thread. Your indecision is validating his seeming indifference and lack of commitment to you, his valued customer. He should be making serious offers of reconciliation if he wants to keep your business. I don't know the content of your communications with him but YOU are the offended one here. He has your deposit and a year of your time. It was his mistake. It must be frustrating for you because you can't insist on a certain outcome because of various circumstances. He is not doing the right thing.
You should terminate the deal. He should refund the deposit immediately. Sounds like he's going to get someone else's deposit soon so that will hold him while he sells his mistake.
I know it's not this simple for you. Best of luck in your decision.
-
As both a builder and a lawyer I've been watching this thread with great interest. Most everything that could be said seems to have been. But I feel that there has to be more to the story we aren't privy to. Not because the OP is hiding anything. But one side can never tell a whole story.
On the face of the story it is beyond outrageous. I can understand if the OP had asked for a "slight V neck profile" and felt he received a "C profile". Or if the OP asked for a French polished finish and is disappointed that it isn't as glossy and perfect as a poly finish applied by robots. Or the OP inspected the guitar with a looking glass and mirrors and found some glue squeeze out on the inside and now didn't want to take delivery and was demanding their deposit back. But cutting into a carved spruce top to make a second unwanted pickup rout? It is inconceivable. The builder in me says, WTF?!! How do you make a mistake like that? I agree with some that it doesn't even seem like a mistake. Something is fishy.
Likewise, having made such a colossal mistake, how do you even present it to the client? How are you not mortified when the client discovers the mistake? Why not drop everything to re-top the guitar? For that matter, what well known builder with a long waiting list can't afford to immediately refund a deposit? We live in a world of disposable $600 guitars from Guitar Center. How does a builder who has somehow managed to build up a waitlist on $5,000 plus guitars have business practices like this?
That's where the lawyer in me kicks in. When clients tell me stories that can only make sense if the other party is outrageous, reckless, or crazy I always suspect I'm not hearing the full story. Many of us have reacted as if this builder has basically taken the courtesy and good relations of a client and pissed all over it.
All I can think is either this builder is suffering a major melt down in his business or personally AND the OP has the patience of a saint, or there is something we don't know about the story. Again, nothing nefarious on the OP's part. For example, perhaps he is embarrassed to say that after the written specs the luthier asked him if he was sure he wanted one pickup and he may have given the impression he had changed his mind. He hadn't, but he can see how maybe the builder interpreted it like that. Now he wishes he had been less ambivalent because he realizes he REALLY doesn't want the two pickup guitar. Or perhaps he suggested to the luthier that he could keep the refund until he sold the guitar, and now regrets having made that offer. All perfectly natural and normal things that can happen to someone making a major custom purchase; and also things that would make both parties' actions seem more logical.
I am willing to reserve judgement on the luthier for now. The story told so far certainly has me wondering if the luthier has maxed out his meds; and it may turn out that is exactly what is happening. But I think it is fair to see how this plays out before the whole weight of JGF comes down on the builder's head.
-
My first thought the first time I read this thread. If he's got the chops that his reputation seems to afford him, it can be done with a bit of time. It'd be worth the time needed if you value your customer. Hell I've re-topped a laminate top on my own JP-20 just for the hell of it. Originally Posted by rlrhett
What it would do in terms of good publicity and builder's rep. would be invaluable. Great story: OP writes "The builder made an egregious error and I can't believe it, he carved me a whole new top! Now THAT's a custom luthier!"
David
-
One issue that I haven't seen stated has to do with you taking the guitar he is presenting you. Now there have been a number of convincing opinions that this luthier may be dumping one of his prior builds on you. The concern I'd have with continuing to work with this builder who has already not given you appropriate service is what will happen if you do take this guitar and find an issue with it after? Do you have confidence that he will back up his build especially at the point when he might have all of your money? I'd have reservations but I bring it up to weigh in your decision process.
Again good luck.
-
this type of thing is exactly why I won't order a custom guitar. I once put a huge down payment down on an instrument that was supposed to be ready in 6 months and there was delay after delay after delay. Then he didn't have the cash to refund me until he sold some more instruments. Another time, I sent back an instrument for repair because the glued-on bridge (acoustic) was in the wrong place and couldn't be intonated. After I sent it in, he stopped replying to emails and eventually his line was disconnected. I ended up paying a PI in his home town to get me a home address and contact information. I eventually got the instrument back unrepaired.
I would never send a luthier money in advance again unless it's someone like Sadowsky or Benedetto.
-
Originally Posted by jzucker
It happens but there are also many builders who operate year after year without any of these sorts of problems and keep enough cash on hand to handle contingencies.
-
yes I agree and you are one of the best. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
-
To Jim’s point, In my experience stories like this are uncommon particularly among legitimate luthiers with track records. There are however many horror show stories on TGP regarding “wild west” of electric guitar builders. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
I have commissioned MANY custom guitars with > dozen solo custom luthiers. In all cases, communication was excellent, tone, playability and fit n’ finish met my expectations and delivery timing in most cases was on target. In a few cases with clear, prospective communication delivery time did slip 3-6 months (on 12-24 month estimates).
My $.02
-
You have a point and I won't in any way excuse the guy, but this kind of thing can happen pretty easily if there's an apprentice involved, and especially if you're working on multiples. You explain to him exactly what needs to be done (as far as you can tell) but he loses focus somewhere along the way. "We always put 2 pickups on this model. That's what I've always done before!" Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Then you're faced with continuing on and dealing with what we're dealing with now, or fixing it right then and there before investing any more resources in the mistake. Obviously the correct course of action.
So maybe our luthier made the bad decision. Which actually makes him look worse in my book. If he's in this biz he should know a little something about guitars and guitarists. To think that one VS two pickups, or gold VS silver hardware isn't going to matter shows a total lack of understanding of what he's doing for a living. Or worse, it shows greed and a willingness to try to get away with something.
-
Wow, that is just awful. How can a person like that sleep at night? Does this guy still make guitars and if so who was it? I’m sure there are plenty more good and honest builders out there than these guys but there should be a list of problem luthiers, what happened and how did the situation resolve. I can accept that accidents happen and how they handle their mistakes could actually have me choosing them, assuming I was ever going to buy a guitar made for me. Buying guitars over the past couple of years I was considering going that route but there were Gibsons and Ibanezes I had wanted for a long time so I went with that. But after hearing your story and the OP’s, despite just being two bad situations, I don’t think I could handle the potential of something like that happening coupled with not knowing what I was going to get or how I would like it until after several months of waiting. The only one I might try for fun in the future is Mr. Wu since it is inexpensive and he will really do whatever people ask for, which could be the closest I’d ever get to designing a guitar. Originally Posted by jzucker
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
-
A teeth grinding experience. Originally Posted by jzucker
FWIW, I have three times through the years ordered and recieved custom built guitars. The luthiers delivered exacly what we had agreed on, according to detailed specs sheets, at the scheduled time and at the agreed price. There was a pleasant and to the point communication before and during the build process. The guitars were packed well and arrived on time without accidents (two with UPS, one with FedEx). No issues have arisen after the reciept of the guitars which I still play happily. I was a fully satisfied customer, so I can without reservations name the three luthiers: Bob Benedetto, Jim Triggs and Tom Painter.
-
Just to give another POV to this topic (and this has nothing to do with the OP!), I've spoken with a few top luthiers about this subject, and they have some real horror stories about their customers. Many of the collectors don't know much about guitars, especially if they're not players, and can make a luthier's job a nightmare, while they also try to destroy the luthier's rep online.
OTOH, I've never commissioned a build, and I don't ever intend to.
-
The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. What ever happened to "Measure twice, cut once?"
The same should go for reviewing specs and plans before proceeding.
What if he ordered non-cut and the guy built a cut? Or vice-versa?
-
Repeat as needed. It's called developing your chops; practice makes perfect. Since when is it necessary to state "You don't make the client pay for your practicing". Go to a gig, you don't pay for a practice session. Get to a guitar, you don't pay for a builder practicing getting it right. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
We had another adage. An apprentice makes mistakes. A journeyman learns to hide his mistakes. A master doesn't make mistakes. Where do you think this builder ranks?
David
-
When something goes sideways in our shop, we have a little joke to make us feel a bit better about re-making:
"We make it nice 'cause we make it twice!"
-
I keep wondering how this is going.....
I remember one of the good ol' boys at one of our factories telling me a long time ago that some orders are 'snake bit' from the beginning.....a dumb mistake would get made early, get corrected and then everyone would think they were back to normal, and then another screw-up would appear out of the blue.....he'd say they'd start out bad and no matter what you did, or thought you could do, they'd stay that way.....
Bottom line, again, good luck to the OP.......and this may just be me, but no way I'd give this builder another chance and risk going through this all over again......
Just MHO
-
I know how my mind works...
If this was me, there is NO WAY that I would accept his offer for something you did not order.
Even if they accidentally top off my cheeseburger with pastrami,
I didn't order it that way... not gonna eat it (well maybe)
... but not on a custom order guitar when you have the paper trail.
I would make him do a rebuild to your original spec, then go back to waiting for him to finish.
If you out him, or ask for a rush job there is no way you are going to win.
If you even have one inkling that he is screwing you... then he is screwing you...
In that case, I would DEMAND my refund and go elsewhere, then and only then...
LET THE OUTING BEGIN!
-
I am willing to admit that the first couple of posts were written out of frustration - so as it is with anything you're involved with personally, I was obviously biased. However, even when I read back, there's is nothing in the posts (which I can see) where I twisted a detail to make him seem less than fair. Originally Posted by rlrhett
I realize you're talking about hypotheticals but I have made it perfectly clear that I wanted one pick up right from the get go, and have never suggested he could wait to refund me. (Although, I wouldn't really mind that anyway, I know the guitar will sell in a heartbeat, should I choose to forego it.)
I'm just not a very emotional person when it comes to matters like these. I guess yes patient is a word that people sometimes use to describe me. Also, I do think it is an easy and seemingly small mistake to make to write 2 instead of 1 pickups, although the end result is catastrophic, I do understand how it could have happened. Although I'm disappointed at the mistake, I don't hold it against him because we all make mistakes.
What I did have a problem with was the way he responded AFTER I told him the problem and the fact I thought it was a problem. In my mind that was the totally wrong way to respond to the situation and the amount of business he's done, he should have known better to consider it to be a significant problem right away.
Anyway, hope it clears up a little bit.
Reply With Quote
Secret to McCoy Tyner pentatonics Using forward...
Today, 09:41 AM in Improvisation