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I agree. Name names. And your next e-mail to him should feature a link to this thread. He should be able to read exactly how his slipshod work and shady business practice will be viewed by the public.
Originally Posted by Alter
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05-27-2018 08:55 AM
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I used to make expensive, custom and elaborate things out of concrete. My clients were generally well off and/or artists. Communication and managing expectations helped to minimize errors, but they happened. The only acceptable response in that situation was to fix the problem and eat the cost.
I would expect any custom luthier to do the same.
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Need to be realistic here.
You haven't seen and played this instrument yet, correct ?
Is it a good e.g. of a double-pu type archtop...sort of sounds like a Byrdland, or a thin-line L5-CES?!
(Forget for the moment, that it's not what you wanted.)
If it is …..set that thought, aside.
You said....you are pretty sure guy is not trying to pass of someone else's project to you....OK...if true, he didn't have bad intent...could be an honest mistake....hard to believe but still possible....hard to believe he would do this "deliberately"....in sense of "I'm going to knowingly deliver something non-conforming"
...3 measures of contract law damages: 1. restitution---i.e. "call off deal", and restore status quo....means here refund of deposit, and other payments. He keeps instrument. 2. reliance--what did you incur, given you thought you had a contract..i.e. your reliance was reasonable....probably same measure, i.e. what you've paid; 3. expectation---put you in position you'd be in if contract was performed....but this is non-starter here
Probably no bad intent on his part, then gets into complicated question of what this non-performing guitar is worth, vs. what you've specified....no court is going to order him to build you a new guitar....so "specific performance" here is not realistic….as a plaintiff, I wouldn't ask for this....too many chances to have him come up with something substandard, but arguably conforming....basically a bad situation....not like deeding over a piece of real estate...where thing exists, and ct. can order it. (Specific performance is often done with real estate.)
Want to spend years in foreign distant jurisdiction arguing over something not very clear? Suing this guy is not realistic. You don't know what his situation will be in 3 years...etc.
Impugning guy's reputation harms him, but doesn't help you, immediately. Might even backfire...if you decide to take this guitar, and try to re-sell it.
Hate to break it to people but every time you enter into a contract with future performance, there is risk involved...risk the guy won't be there...risk the business burns down.....goes bankrupt, etc. It is all well and good to say, the vendor-seller breached here....maybe he did, but this doesn't get you anywhere. If he really has cash-flow problems, stamping your feet doesn't accomplish much.
If I were defending the vendor, I'd say this was honest mistake, and value of what I did deliver is worth $5K, or more, so your claim is worthless. Often, law does not deal with "subjective" evaluations of value...preferring market measures, esp with goods in commerce.
So....if this is a good e.g. of a thin-line double pu archtop, and it sounds and plays like one of those should....you should verify this....and you say you're going to be in country anyway....I'd be inclined to take the guitar, and drop the claim.
I'd be wary of bad-mouthing this guy....there may be liability on this in California...it is basically a paradise for litigation-happy lawyers....I don't know what YOUR circumstances are, but this could backfire, as well.
Maybe you litigate and spend time getting a refund, and then you have to collect if from afar...all for not much.
IF this is a decent e.g. of a double pu thinline archtop, I'd be inclined to grab the guitar, and move on...even if it is not exactly what you specified.Last edited by goldenwave77; 05-27-2018 at 10:32 AM.
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I think, particularly depending on the outcome and how the luthier handles this, it would be a public service to say who this guy is. It could be to his benefit if he handles it well and makes it right but either way it is just being nice to the community to say who this is and let people decide based on how they handle it whether or not they would have him build an instrument. Hopefully he has learned something about how not to have this happen again, and hopefully it was somehow an honest mistake and not him trying to sell you someone else’s order. You never know though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Considering the story as told so far, I can't imagine myself giving this builder another penny.
I hate to say it, but even if the guitar issue is resolved, it's going to be tough to enjoy his custom build after such a crappy stressful transaction. If he decides to make things right OK, but as it stands, there is little joy to be found in what should have been a fun and exciting undertaking. Too much negative mojo.
I look forward to hearing how this dilemma plays out. Best of Luck to the OP !!!!!
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I would not publish the builder's name until after the situation is resolved. One is not in a position to collect on a small claims case being in another State, let alone another Country. The OP is at the builder's mercy at this point and I would not inflame a bad situation if I was in his shoes.
Once the situation is settled, it would be in the interest of all guitar players for this Guitar builders identity to be revealed. He is clearly a man without honor and people should be forewarned. He had an opportunity to do the right thing and did not. Shame on him.
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Let's hope it is settled. I've seen a public calling out aid a customer resolve a bad situation. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I have too. At MLP, which has busy Vendor's Classifieds and Member's Classified areas, if a member has a deal go south, he is free to open up a thread about it, either naming the seller/vendor or not as may be fit. Originally Posted by DRS
I've seen several times where months or even years of could-shouldering has given way to making the sale right due to having that avenue. It serves the interests of no one in the guitar-buying community to have an incompetent or unethical seller/builder staying under the radar; it only allows him to stalk prey more easily. I think I've seen four or five sour deals get made right (albeit incredibly tardy) this way.
It may be the OP's best move to take the guitar at discount and move on. But that doesn't mean that others shouldn't know who is honest and/or diligent, and who isn't.
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The OP has a right to specific performance, end of story. It's breach of implied contract, period. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
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i'm not sure that name and shame is the best option at this time simply because the builder holds all the cards. he has the money. he has the guitar. the op has no leverage. he can take it or leave it (and hope he gets his money back eventually). lashing out at the builder in public can't speed up the process either way, and it certainly can't improve the results.
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Wow, I didn’t see the part where the builder is keeping the 1000 dollar deposit until he sells the guitar. That is completely unacceptable - I don’t know the popularity of this builder of course but even selling a Gibson, which is known as a fairly safe investment in terms of eventually finding a buyer and getting back what you paid (if you buy used at a fair price), might be some time before it sells. For him to keep that money is close to stealing being that he didn’t deliver what he was hired to make.
I can see the other side of it if he doesn’t have that kind of money laying around but in this case he should get that money ASAP to return if the OP doesn’t decide to keep the guitar.
As for one pickup vs. two, yes as a semi that will not make a big difference. However a one pickup semi is much more unique and if there is any lingering resentment or regret down the road looking at the guitar that should have been what he wanted and paid for then it is not worth it. Not saying that would definitely happen - it could be a happy coincidence and the OP could love the guitar. He has to do some serious thinking about it he can accept that guitar without regrets I guess. But man, I would be livid if I were in his shoes. This is not a small sum of money to me and a lot of people. Although it does seem like he doesn’t have any power here, he does have the playing card of exposing who this guy is on as many forums as he can find (this, the Facebook jazz guitar group etc.) I don’t like being vindictive but if someone was keeping 1000 dollars of my money until it was convenient for them to return it I would use any tools I had to try to maintain some sort of leverage. And like I said before, this ends up being a public service thing too because as bad as it must feel to be in this situation I would not wish anyone else to end up dealing with the frustration that is happening here.
On a related note, do any builders issue contracts? I would think that it protects them to make sure a buyer is going to follow through with a sale, deposit or not, and obviously it protects the buyer as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Outing can result in the builder's reputation being shattered resulting in a loss of business. That is a powerful card. I've seen builders forced into dealing fairly to avoid such a loss of reputation. It's a very public process and can be very effective. Originally Posted by feet
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oh, no doubt. but i wouldn't go nuclear yet. that's really his only option if things go (more) south. the builder has to know this. if the builder doesn't grasp that or doesn't care, then fine. but he can't be that dumb. can he? is some internet hearsay and he said/she said enough to dissuade future buyers if the builder's name or backlog is that big? has this happened before or is it an isolated incident? we don't know enough to answer that conclusively.
personally, i'm not sure what i'd do here. a lot of wasted time here. if he takes his build elsewhere, it could be another year before his turn comes up and he gets his guitar, not counting the time wasted on the current build. that's a powerful deterrent. maybe the current builder knows this, too.
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Hey guys, thank you for the comments and support!
Sorry that I'm not updating more consistently - this happened to be right in the middle of a local jazz festival so time has been scarce.
So I've sent him an email yesterday, I suppose worded in a much more down to earth manner, and was honest about how I felt. And I think I've managed to have him see it from my point of view.
The reply that followed was much more reasonable and definitely very apologetic. Seemed to me he had originally thought the extra pickup wasn't a very big deal and almost a bonus, perhaps I was too softly spoken in my previous exchanges in an attempt to not sabotage the relationship.
Once he understood that I thought it was a big deal, he presented me with a heartfelt apology along with an offer of a discounted price of the guitar. He did still ask me to wait for the refund should I choose to go that way but it was much more sincere. It was something that I necessarily didn't have a problem even originally, because I know he has a very good reputation and someone will buy the guitar very quickly, I was simply just ticked off at the tone of the request.
Unfortunately a re-build still isn't an option but I can understand that because I know he has an extremely packed waiting list and I'm in the US in a month and a half's time. (and I wouldn't want something like to be rushed anyway)
So I guess I'm currently deciding whether I should accept this guitar or not. I was kind of dead set on a re-build but after receiving the latest email and reading you guy's opinions - I feel like I am much more calm and hopefully seeing things more clearly. It is definitely a very nice looking guitar and knowing his other guitars, I'm sure it sounds very good as well. Plus I have already booked this trip to pick up the thing and to return without a guitar would be quite disappointing. And getting on somebody else's waiting list and doing it all over again seems like another very long process and will probably require another trip there anyway. And it will end up being a pretty good deal.
On the other hand, I already have very nice guitars which I'm totally happy playing in the mean time, rather than settling for something that meets 90% of my criteria, I can wait for something that meets 99.99%.
I've told him I'm going to sit on this decision for a couple of days before I make the final decision and that's where we're sitting now! I will update again for closure...
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How much was this proposed discount was? Originally Posted by itsall4you
If it's 20% or greater, I'd say, just take it and be grateful to walk out with a guitar rather than a big pile of stinking disappointment.
And of course, don't forget to post a big NGD for all the world to see.
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I have suggested it already but he said he would never do that. Originally Posted by bananafist
I don't think he was actually going to charge me, although I'm not sure - we didn't get to discuss the final balance. Originally Posted by oldane
I think it would have dampened the top by a good amount, even though there is a very small sound post block, top/back is carved and is acoustically quite loud. I'm possibly considering giving it a go but only if he agrees to take the instrument back if I don't like it. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Yeah there’s two sides to this - the ethical which is clear, and the practical.
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Sorry, not so clear at all. Restatement, 2nd Contracts leans the other way. ON these facts, no court is going to require the guy to build a new, conforming guitar. Damages probably consist of difference in value between a 2-pu guitar and a 1-pu, which might even be negative. Originally Posted by Uncle Vinnie
Refund of deposit makes most sense, conceptually, but this is difficult to enforce, practically speaking.
People here like to put a lot of emphasis on what are usually pretty minute differences between instruments. By and large, contract law sticks to objective (market-based) values, not subjective wishes.
(If there were a fire in my apt., I might first grab a photograph of my father with HIS parents, taken when he returned from WW II....literally irreplaceable....but my apt insurance is not going to cover it....whereas the 2nd hand, replacement cost of my L4-CES....no problem.)
ADEQUACY OF DAMAGES
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Written like an appellate lawyer! My experience (15 years as a full time attorney with over a hundred trials under my belt) is that most cases (especially at the small claims level) are won on the facts, not the law. Specific performance? Not likely. Restitution? That would be the result. If the OP was in the same area as the builder and went to small claims court, I think a judgment for the deposit would be awarded. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
But as this is most certainly a small claims case and the plaintiff lives in another Country, litigation is not going to happen. The $1000 went into materials for the build. The OP will either have to wait for the builder to make restitution (which he probably will at some point) or accept the incorrect build at a reduced price. Sadly, this screw up will not have a perfect outcome.
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If the guitar is great and there is a discount, that's not really a bad outcome at all.
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Sorry, I've been involved with a lot of luthiers over the years , and not one of them made a mistake like this. My view is that it is not a mistake. He made the guitar for someone else, and that guy didn't come up with the money, and now he's passing it along to you, thinking that as you live on the other side of the world he can get away with it. Even after your Update 2, I still would find it near impossible to believe him. That said, if you are willing to take the guitar at a reduced price, then go ahead. But I still don't believe him. I'd personally not buy it - it would forever leave an after taste, a rather sour one. But perhaps I'm too sensitive.
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Just how well known/respected is this guy? Is it a name you think most of us already know?
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All that I can tell you after having decided between a one or two pickups archtop is that there is a whole world of difference between them.
One pickup has more range dynamic and the two pickups is more compressed sound.
Good luck with your new guitar!
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Knowing that one of the big name builders out there considers this SOP changes the game. Not knowing who this is means it's going to be in the back of everyone's mind "If I ever put down a grand to have [Benedetto, Triggs, Andersen...] build me a guitar with these specs, am I going to have to go through this myself?"
Yeah I get it that the there was some genuine friendly relationship going on here, but is the difference between a luthier who doesn't give you what you wanted through incompetence and one who does a bait and switch, how are they different? And more importantly, why should anyone go through the disappointment and frustration of losing a grand because they wanted something very specific and the builder didn't deliver (for any reason).
A luthier depends on their own earned reputation. Being a part of this very elite class of builders means you benefit by the collective reputation formed with other custom luthiers, players assume they can safely expect what they want; not something totally different, not something kinda like it but really nice, not something that may be perfect for someone else but not perfect for me.
A luthier depends on standards of excellence and strength of character and I dare say all good custom luthiers should stand by their name and the reputation of the field. There has always been a strong sense of pride and honor among the builders I know and associate with. I resent it that another builder is not standing by what I consider basic standards of practice. If I'm cutting a neck blank and I cut it shy of the line, I don't assume if I make it look good that a narrow neck is what that customer will get. And I certainly wouldn't presume to even offer it as a "second". It goes with respecting the customer's ability to know what they want.
I don't know about you but it disturbs me to know that there's a builder among the family of custom luthiers who presents this kind of risk and nobody knows if it's him, or me, or Victor Baker, or Mr Wu, or the once upon a time Gibson custom shop....
Can I ask other luthiers out there, if you had a documented order on a guitar and YOU screwed up in fulfilling the contract to provide that, what would you think? What would you do? Guys, does this bother you as much as it does me? Cuz personally, I'd be mortified, then I'd be embarrased, then I'd be doubly mortified... but never would I consider that I deserve the money that was entrusted to me. And I am not rich enough to afford mistakes of this kind, just brought up to respect a certain standard of behaviour.
DavidLast edited by TH; 05-28-2018 at 06:31 PM.
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I think it is not appropriate to post something like this and not name the builder. Many of us order custom guitars and if you are going to bring something like this to the group, you should let us know who it is.
This has nothing to do with "name and shame;" as long as this post is up, people will be speculating who it might be and it could potentially even drive business away from other builders. Also, given what you've the described, the builder absolutely does not deserve to be protected from having this information about his business practices made public, and other group members should be aware risk they run when dealing with this builder.
If it was a an honest mistake and ends on a satisfactory note, that will ultimately be reflected here.
Please let us know who it is.
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René Magritte
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