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Does anyone have some advise for a novice player wanting to get better ...yes practice
but I want a nice instrument ...a keeper
I like Paul Brown and Benson .
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05-22-2018 09:59 AM
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Well the 335 will be quite different being a semi so first I would identify what sound you want. You can’t go wrong with any of those (throw a 175 into the options too if you are going Gibson). Do you like Wes/Kenny Burrell/early Pat Martino etc. tone? L5 or Super 400. Jim Hall, Joe Pass and the slew of other 175 players? Get the 175. More modern sounds? 335 - I would also consider a 330 since those are great (Grant Green being the one to listen to for those sounds).
I have an L5 and es-175 as well as a high quality semi and I play the 175 drastically more these days since it fits into a group so well and is such a simple plug and play instrument at any volume and with any instrument configuration. That’s just me though. Who do you like listening to?
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I love the sound that Paul Brown makes
what amps do you love most ?
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Thanks for your reply by the way
what are your thoughts buying new vs vintage
L5 or 175 ?
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There was a whole thread on this, but given that this is a somewhat exploratory purchase, I would recommend vintage. On a vintage instrument, you won't lose much money if you decide to sell it later.
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Any particular years for the L5 or 175 ?
thanks
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All of those are great instruments. You can not go wrong with either of them.
But they are different animals and you really have to try, try, think it over and try again before you buy. You´re not talking about a ham and cheese sandwich. These guitars cost serious money. Big difference besides the price tag are the scale length and body size (both bout and depth).
I have L5 and 175 as well. I tend to like the 25.5 scale of the L5 better that the 24.75 of the 175. If you intend to play standing, than a thinline and/or a bit smaller body is a help. If you play loud, a centreblock like in the 335 is great.
Now vintage or new? Used guitars keep their financial value better... vintage is expensive, but often great. I seldom buy new. Most vintage or used.
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That is very good advice .. thank you
vintage good years ? Bad years
it’s a bit of a crap shoot buying on line .. conditions etc
Any amp advice for low mellow tones ?
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For electrics I think it’s hard to beat 50s Gibsons.
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Paul Brown records with a L-5 and a Johnny Smith. He plays a Palen performer live. All great guitars. The JS and the Palen share close to the same specs. (scale length, neck width, X-Braced). The L-5 Longer scale parallel bracing. If I were you I would decide which was the most comfortable to play. They all produce top tier sound that should be right up your ally.
Originally Posted by Bwalsh9
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Just a thought: you might want to experiment a bit, try different models, before making a big money decision. For example, both those very fine archtops you mention are 25.5 scale. Will that agree with you when it comes to a full-depth, large hollowbody? So many different variables affect playability and tone. I've been surprised at which hollowbodies are turning out to work best for me ... not at all what I expected when I started practicing jazz. It could be the same for you.
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That’s the info about Paul Brown I’ve been searching for
His recording sound is so unique and clear .
i can’t be him but I sure can try to hit those notes
with his amazing timing .
thank you for sharing
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It appears you're in Arizona. Might be wise to fly to LA and hit Norman's Rare Guitars. Norm's is one of the few stores where you'll be able to try out a wide array of vintage archtop guitars. I agree with the others. Enjoy the search. Play all the models and figure out what suits you best. Good luck! Oh, and if you can go 50s, you should end up with a great electric archtop.
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Great advice, so far. For amps, if you want a Martino/Pass/Hall/Benson /Ellis sound, try a used Polytone Mini Brute.
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I’m in the Phoenix area yes I will fly over to Norms in La .. been on his site looking
his prices seem pretty high but you are right about trying them all on for size and feel
and maybe I buy one there .
he seems to get a lot of the best players visit the store ... his prices seem celebrity high but
best selection .
thanks for that
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Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be rude or difficult but I think you're going about this in entirely the wrong way.
First, when a list includes guitars as different as a Super 400 and a 335, it tells me that you really don't know enough to be making this purchase yet.
A good 335 (more on the "good part" in a bit) is a great guitar but it's not for everyone. The solid center block makes it heavy and removes a lot of the acoustic content. On the other hand many players find it comfortable and the center block also prevents feedback and makes it very versatile. Do you need versatility? Are you going to be playing loud enough to worry about feedback? Are these benefits that will be meaningful to you? About the "good" part ... there have been a lot of changes in the 335 over the years so it's not really a single model but dozens of models that were made across multiple eras. Some have big necks, some have small necks, some have trapeze bridges, some have stop tail pieces etc. So when you say 335, then you have to know WHICH 335 you mean because those differences add up to huge discrepancies between guitars with the same model designation.
A Super 400 is also a great guitar but it's enormous. Have you played one? I've been playing for 55 years and there's absolutely no way that I could play a Super 400 as my main guitar. It's way too big for me. An L5 is also a great guitar but they tend to be heavy and brighter than a lot of people like. Like the 335, the S400 and L5 have gone through a lot of iterations over the years, and the differences from year to year and era to era can be even bigger than those in the 335. The original L5 wasn't even an electric guitar. So which one do you mean when you say L5?
Next comes the issue of a novice wanting a "keeper guitar". I think that's a terrible idea. What a novice needs are keeper ideas rather than keeper guitars. As you learn more and play more, your ideas of what you want to play are almost certain to diverge from what you like now. Each new bit of knowledge opens new musical choices and opportunities and those choices will influence what gear you need to get your ideas from your head to your ears. Buying a "keeper" guitar before you have enough experience means that moving forward one of three things will have to happen: either your guitar dictates your musical choices (which I consider a very bad thing); or you end up having to sell your "keeper" guitar and get something that fits your increasing knowledge and experience; or you end up having to buy yet another "keeper" to facilitate your new needs and wants.
There is also a simple truth that almost no novice player wants to believe: buying the gear that your heroes use will never make you sound like them ... at least not until you're able to play like them.
So what do I think you (or anyone getting into playing ) ought to do?
First, treat your first jazz guitar as temporary instrument that you own for the purpose of learning and discovery. This is a golden age for lower price guitars. Get a nice inexpensive Ibanez, or Godin, or Eastman etc. and get started. They will do the job at this point and they will let you learn what's important to you over time rather than what's important to George Benson or Paul Brown. They will let you learn what scale length you prefer, what nut width, what bridge type. What's more important to you: feedback control or acoustic presence? Do you prefer to pay with a lot of sustain or a lot of presence? Do you like big necks or small? Do you like the thunk of a 175 or the chime of a Telecaster? You won't have any answers to these questions until you get a lot further so why be limited as a player from the outset because you bought an expensive "keeper" guitar before you let yourself do the learning that should make the decision for you.Last edited by Jim Soloway; 05-22-2018 at 01:30 PM.
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Jim Soloway, who made guitars for years, has just produced terrific advice for a newcomer to jazz guitar.
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Rainbow Guitars down in Tucson sometimes has a few nice archtops you can checkout. Their web site shows what’s in so you won’t waste a drive.
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I'm curious what guitars and amps you are currently playing?
Also I'm big on the ES 175.
Interesting that people have mentioned good guitar shops in Tucson and LA.
Surely there must be some nice guitars to be found in the Phoenix metro area.
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While I agree with much of Jim Soloway's advice, I would still start with a Gibson ES-175. They are a sound investment, and IMO are the ultimate jazz guitar. Joe Pass, Jim Hall and Herb Ellis all agreed.
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Lived in Phoenix thirty years and have yet to find a reliable shop for non-shredders. Originally Posted by Longways to Go
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Great advice from Jim S
As a novice in1970 I had no idea where my musical inclinations would take me and over the years have played many types of music - folk, trad UK folk, pop, rock, fusion, swing, 1940s Hot Club de France.....
All these styles called for different guitars, strings, picks, amps, pedals..... which I learned as I travelled the musical road. The longest I have kept a guitar is 25 years. I have 'let go" over the years a 1962 strat to finance a wider selection of instruments for the styles I played. Ditto a 1958 ES175D, and a 1963 Vox AC30. My keeper is a 1961 ES175 which I bought at age 38 after trying about 10 over a period of 6 months, with a clear very idea of what I wanted, based on my musical journey.
My advice would echo Joe's. Play lots of instruments and focus on two things. How does playing each instrument "feel" in your hands? Secondly, how does it sound to YOUR ears? Quality instruments are very personal, and it was only after 23 years of playing that my body and ears KNEW that my current 175 was right for ME. Remember also that playing in a shop is not like playing at home or a concert hall or club. Amps are a major part of the equation, as are picks and strings (no shortage of posts on these "details" here)
You're starting on an amazing journey. Make the most of understanding the journey and build and develop your own personal musical compass to guide you. For now, buy a good instrument that feels and sounds good to you now, but don't obsess on "the perfect instrument". Be prepared to accept that your tastes and preferences can and will evolve. As this evolution happens, change your instruments to meet your new desires, and let go those that no longer match your needs and tastes - someone somewhere will see them as a good match for THEIR needs. With this in mind I would go for used instruments, for better resale potential. There are excellent new instruments too, but my new ones (bought in recent years) have been bought with the benefit of nearly 50 years playing to help me develop my personal compass.
Enjoy the journey
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There is an issue of size. The Super 400 is a very big guitar -- uncomfortable for many players.
That's also true, but to a lesser extent, for an L5. As a result there are smaller full body archtops. I think the George Benson models fit that description.
The best sounding guitar I ever played was a vintage L5, but if I owned it, I'd be afraid to take it on a gig.
Both the Super 400 and L5 are 25.5 inch scale guitars. Some people prefer 24.75, like the 175 is.
But, it also depends on the exact shape of the neck, and there has been variation over the years even when the name of the model is the same.
And, that doesn't even approach the issue of whether you actually need a fancy archtop to play great jazz. Great jazz has been played on a wide variety of instruments and there are great jazz players who could play big box Gibsons, or equivalent, but choose not to do so, instead playing various solid and semisolid guitars.
Two quick examples. Strings Attached is a group fronted by 4 top pro NYC jazz guys. Two of them, Vic Juris and Jack Wilkins, have played semi-solids each time I've seen them. Jack Wilkins played a Comins GCS-1 ($1499 on line). I don't know which model Vic Juris played. Both of them sounded fantastic.
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Someone once told me that quite a few good things come out of Phoenix... than added "the interstate is a great example" Originally Posted by TedBPhx
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Thank you Jim for your advice and experienced ear ....I hear everything you are saying and agree with some of what you are saying ...
I’ve been playing a McGill Super Ace acoustic and a PRS elect.....so wanted a true jazz box sound.
thanks I will try out some guitars.
appreciate the time you took to deal with my stuff ...
i want to get better that’s all ...
I just heard a piece by Norman Brown on my car radio ... I mean what joy to listen to that
yeah he is a hero of mine ...I met him couple years back and what a humble straight ahead guy .
so these guys get us to try to emulate and enjoy ... nothing wrong with discovery and curiosity
it’s all part of growing musically .
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