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Originally Posted by Dylan Martin
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05-21-2018 09:30 AM
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A discussion easily and empirically solved by saying - go transcribe some Mike Stern.
His music might be ‘not jazz’ to some, but you’d have to be crazy or deaf to say there’s no jazz in it.
Stern probably plays more bop vocabulary than some contemporary acoustic jazz players.
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He has recorded some bop stuff, sounds very good.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Ditto YJM.
That wasn't a criticism, FWIW.... just an observation. I love jazz guitar, and don't hear Mike as jazz, I hear him as fusion. But then bebop led right into fusion, so....
I'd love to "like" Mike, I just haven't heard anything yet that moves me personally. Boston Joe put the whole matter succinctly in his post above. There's no need to repeat it, and this isn't a competition.
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Originally Posted by ruger9
"I can't hear any jazz in Mike Stern's playing"- paraphrase. Well, what the hell is the poor dude doing when he plays Moment's Notice?
I mean you might not think, for whatever reason, it's very good jazz, but it's still obviously jazz.
Now - guitarists who play fusion who aren't bebop or jazz related... They are out there (Jeff Beck most obviously) but Stern obviously wouldn't be one of them.
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(Unless you are one of the people who insists jazz be played with a certain instrumental timbre of course, in which case we'll have to agree to disagree.....)
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Sorry I’d had a couple of beers last night and turned into grumpy internet man
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Fusion came from jazz, among other things. That's why they call it fusion.
And I never said Stern wasn't "any good"- I actually said quite the opposite.
And, re: your last statement, obviously not "obviously."
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by ruger9
Well there is a point in this that I do want to make which is that Mikes influences were primarily jazz horn players and blues and rock guitarists iirc
So that’s the basic fusion going on there.
You could say the exact same thing about Mike Brecker.
Now fusion is now the same age that jazz was when fusion came along (if take the recorded history)
So loads of players come straight out of fusion without checking jazz or become proficient improvisers within jazz. That’s categorically different in my mind to Stern or for that matter later players like Adam Rogers and Nir Felder who to me are electric jazz players. They might play Electric guitars but there music is suffused with bebop.
I mean Sterns playing is chock full of bebop language and devices.
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To be honest it sounds like you’re basically judging stern on his guitar sound and stage image and haven’t really listened Beyond that.
I’ve listened to Mike Stern playing bebop blues the 55 bar with his trio and every note of it is Jazz to me. It actually seems completely laughable to me that somebody would say otherwise. It’s not about whether or not I like it, or being some sort of fanboy about it - it’s just that’s what it is. A bit of chorus or whatever on the guitar sound doesn’t change that for me.
I haven’t even said if I like his playing!
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I guess I’m grumpy sober Internet man LOL
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Put it yet another way: the other day I was jamming on The weather report tune unplugged with an acoustic bass player. Is the music I was playing now acoustic jazz?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Where straight-up bebop jazz guitar would be more like, for example, Tal Farlow (among others.)
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Is the music of JS Bach no longer baroque music when played on the grand piano?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
There's you're problem: I'm not judging him at all.
I said I hadn't heard anything from him that moved me. And if you read the entire thread, you would know that "doesn't move me" does not mean "bad" or "unworthy." I haven't "judged" Mike AT ALL. As a matter of fact, I said he seems like a really cool guy, I really enjoyed the rig rundown, I just hadn't yet heard anything by him that made me want to listen to him play. And I saw him live a couple years ago as well.
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I’m not saying there is necessarily any easy answers about this and obviously there is a connection between instruments and music but I find it quite interesting questions to ask
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Originally Posted by ruger9
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Secondly, you're the one talking about gear, not me. I never made that distinction whatsoever. I've been talking about Mike's PLAYING, you're the one talking about gear.
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Yeah I mean this all boils down to the same silly debates.... jazz is and isn’t this
Charlie Parker didn’t think of his music as jazz.
Perhaps fusion isn’t jazz, myself I kind think some is and some isn’t but it’s a grey area. But it’s not terribly important....
Really it’s all music.
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Originally Posted by ruger9
Ok then this is an opportunity for an interesting discussion and one I’m really open to having.
Taking away the fact that Mike has a weird squelchy tone, and stripping away the obvious blues rock stuff and so on, what is it about Mikes playing that makes it not jazz to you?
Maybe take his playing on his standards recordings where he tones down the blues rock stuff and plays more swing time as a reference point and compare to bebop players.
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Or don’t, and maybe we leave it at that - can we agree that he’s a highly jazz influenced guitarist who plays both jazz and fusion in so much as those labels mean anything?
I mean I don’t know why I’m putting so much energy into this lol, I guess I’m bored.
I also feel Mike has got stick all his life for not being a jazzer cos he has rock and roll hair, plays a tele and bends strings and to be honest (not saying you are making that argument) it’s a bit childish. Fusion is 50 years of music history now.. Sterns been around for most of that and has played with more great jazz musicians than most of us could ever aspire to.
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Anyway I owe you an apology ruger9 spewing off all this verbiage when a more interesting discussion could have been had by asking ‘why not?’
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No, you definitely take the cake Christian. Mine was just one angry post.
Developing an Individual Style
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