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I’m on a set break so if anyone sees this a quick response would be awesome (but no worries if not). I am on a gig with a very loud drummer - the Bud is keeping up fine and only about at 1 o’clock gain and volume but the heat sink is too hot to touch. I don’t want to damage it long terms and google isn’t helping - any experiences with this? Is it built to withstand this heat? Thanks for any info.
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05-05-2018 09:41 PM
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Well, did you make it through the gig?? I hope so!
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Well, the purpose for the heat sink is to do exactly that- shed heat. Sounds like it was doing its job. How was the top of the cabinet? If that was very hot, then I'd be concerned.
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I've seen (felt) heat sinks for the power transistors on guitar amps get pretty hot. As noted above, that's the amp doing its job.
A 60-150 watt (class AB) or 150-300 watt (class D) power amp dissipates a lot of heat. In an amp that lacks a fan (most of them), that means heat sinks that are operating at temperatures that are too hot to touch--if you are operating the amp above bedroom levels.
I wouldn't worry over-much about it, so long as you aren't operating with extra speakers that are bringing the output impedance down to problem levels for the amp. (I don't know about Henriksen, but my Polytones don't want to operated below two ohms--too much heat.)
Play on and enjoy.
Oh...you might think about shopping around for a more sensitive drummer. I never enjoyed playing with a "basher."
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Greentone - agreed about the drummer. The bassist stopped playing out of protest a few times because his signal was distorting from having to play so loud. I was really impressed that the Bud could put out that kind of volume and it wasn’t even close to maxed out. It was the drummer’s gig though and he called me and three other guys to join him since we play together every week. And this was on a jazz kit - one of the guys said that he played with the drummer before on a gig where he brought a big rock kit and it was even more ear splitting.
Marc - yup, made it through and the amp seems good as new. I could have cooked an egg on the heat sink by the end of it.
Cunamara - the top of the cabinet wasn’t hot enough that I noticed any heat coming from it. I did figure the heat sink was doing its thing but I was just shocked at how hot it got. I’m wondering if it were a hot summer day outside if it still would have been ok. I have to imagine that they engineered the amp to be ok with this because why would they give it the capability to play so loud when I was probably at 60% or full output without being able to deal with the heat - I just have never experienced that kind of heat coming out of an amp.
Thanks a lot for the info - that does make me feel safer. I think I should write Henriksen just to propose the hypothetical outdoor summer gig and see if they think it’d be ok. This amp is amazing and I’d be heartbroken if something happened to it. I also wonder if there is an internal heat sensor that would shut off the amp if it got to heat levels that would damage the internals.
I have a related question - what causes this kind of heat in a solid state amp?
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Lack of tubes.
Originally Posted by rio
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Answer: Current through the transistors. Power transistors see enough milli amps of current at operating voltages of 30 or so volts AC that they heat up. Absent heat sinks they'd self-destruct. Originally Posted by rio
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Early power transistors came with large heat sinks for each transistor, maybe still do, I haven't opened a solid-state amp in awhile, techniques and efficiencies evolve. Tubes provide their own heat sink, necessary as they run red hot.
Pretty much any process that produces power involves heat production, including human muscles. Physicists refer to it as "conservation of energy", and heat is energy. There are various ways to dissipate heat to prevent damage to components, including heat sinks and fans. Fans work well, but as can be seen in the DV Mark threads, they aren't popular with consumers because they create a small amount of noise even though they do the job better than heat sinks. If you're really concerned about the heat sink getting too hot, you can get one or more of the fans used inside electronics and attach it to, or near, the sink and have it move air to cool the sink. I have one mounted on the rear slat of my Fender Vibrolux Reverb, to help dissipate the heat from the tubes. The amp has a handy AC outlet built in, and I use a modified wall wart to convert the AC to 12VDC that the fan uses, easier than finding a 24VDC source inside the amp. TMI, probably, but I got started...
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Rio,
Maybe it's your playing! Are you playing Hot Jazz?
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Here's the problem with heat sinks and power transistors from my experiences with mass produced and limited production prototype electronics, specifically power supplies.
If the heat sink mounting holes (punched or drilled) for the transistor had all burrs / extrusions ground flat and the proper amount of heatsink grease applied (whether mica was used or not) the heatsink is going to do its job likely for the life of the amp.
If ITOH there was any burr or extrusion left in the drilled / punched holes and this causes even a hint of airgap between the transistor and sink, and / or the grease migrates or degrades eventually the transistor(s) will fail.
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If it was me I would go to the source and just give Peter Henriksen a call. I don’t have a Bud but do have a 312 and a 110 and they never get that hot. A little warm maybe. Maybe the small size has a lot to do with it. Talk to Peter.
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Sounds like the heatsink is in good thermal contact with whatever is generating the heat. But should it be that hot? That's a question for the manufacturer. I'm no engineer, but it's hard to imagine a malfunction that would cause an overly hot heatsink with no impact on the sound of the amp. That just sounds like a design choice. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
A quick story. I got my Ampeg Reverberocket in 1964, when I was 14. The chassis got really hot. My dad, who was an electronics tinkerer, was worried about it, so we wrote to Ampeg. They replied with a postcard that said the heat was normal. It worked reliably for about 35 years. Then, I started having intermittent problems, traced after some repeated and expensive troubleshooting to a subtly loose connector to the reverb tank. It has worked reliably since. Apparently, they were right about the heat.
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I just got in touch with them - they said that some of the earlier ones had parts that were out of spec, had heat issues and to let them know if any problems develop but that is what the heat sink is there for and it should be fine. I don’t usually have to play with loud drummers but my main concern is with the summer coming up and hot outdoor gigs. I’ve had it for 2 years now and it made it through two summers already but I don’t remember it getting that hot before (although I never had to crank the volume that much on previous summer gigs). If anything does happen with it I’ll update the thread though in case someone else needs the info in the future while searching.
Thanks for all of the info guys!
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Peter is a great guy. If it blows he will fix it for free. I would consider a 310 or a 312 for your louder gigs.
THe 310 is pretty light to carry. I love Henriksens.
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Yeah, he is awesome. When I got the Bud the amp they sent me had an obvious problem with a buzzing/distortion. I called him and he 2 dayed me a new one so I would have it in time for the weekend since I was hoping to try it out on a gig and payed for return postage for the returning amp. I was really impressed. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
I don’t know if I will ever hit the max volume of the Bud (which is 11 and cracks me up still). I was maybe 60% output for this gig and it was super loud - the loudest I’ve ever had to play even for outdoor gigs. One thing I might consider is a cabinet with a bigger speaker at some point but the output is more than I will ever use most likely and it still blows my mind how much this amp puts out (and that it is also now my bass amp which was also amazing to discover).
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Peter has a new hybrid in the works. Tube power with a SS preamp.
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That is what Leo Fender did with Musicman amps. I had a Musicman and it sounded very solid state (which was not a bad thing!) to my ears, very different from a Blackface Fender. It seems to me that the tube amp sound we all love comes mostly from a tube pre-amp. I know that the power amp tubes change tone as I once tried 6v6's in my Mesa Mark4 instead of the 6l6's, and the tone changed considerably, but what is the rationale for the hybrid? Weight? Keeping it dead clean? Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
I have used my Henriksen Jazzamp on a 4 hour outdoor gig with no heat problems (and on that gig, the bass player did have heat problems with his AI Clarus), but TBH I keep my hands away from that damn heatsink!
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I still have my 1976 Musicman 212. Huge alnico EV speakers and dead clean tone. Never in the shop ever. Twin heavy though. Personally I love the tone. The Twin has way better reverb though.
I am in love with my new 312 though it took a while for the speakers to break in. The new hybrid will have a tough act to follow IMO though each Henriksen model seems to get better and better. Their is a huge difference between the 1 series and the 3. Peter really took the reins from his dad Bud and ran with it. BTW Bud Henriksen was a fine 7 string jazz guitarist. Played a Benedetto.
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Folks in the audio gear community love heatsink heat - In the winter
Try living with solid state Class A amps in the summer.
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Yeah, that looks very intriguing to me. Really could be the best amp ever for a gigging guitarist if done well (and I haven’t seen a Henriksen that wasn’t done well). I’ll be very curious to hear the difference between it and the Bud (or Blu I guess - I assumed that one just sounds like the Bud considering the similarities). Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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I don't really see the point in a solid-state preamp and tube power. But my point vision may be more limited than that of others.
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I have just taken delivery of a new 312. having previously had
a 112ER , there are a number of improvements, and when the
speaker has sufficiently broken in after a week or so I'll report
back with an opinion of it
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You are correct if it is a plain SS preamp. In my case, if it is a modeling preamp with multiple digital effects (such as Fender Super Champ X2), tube power amp stage and a guitar speaker simplifies things (no worries about IRs and power tube emulation which is supposedly harder to do than preamps). I want to believe that it "warms up" the final sound well also. For instance, in addition to the X2, I use my Pod HD500X (only the preamp models) with the tube power stage of the Fender George Benson Hot Rod successfully. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Update, I cannot in all fairness give a balanced opinion of this new 312 . on receipt Originally Posted by silverfoxx
when plugged in. and with no cables attached , it gave out an unacceptable
buzz / loud hum. I tried several mains cords etc., it continued . it also
had a control fault, the input gain was noisy in operation and
adjustment. listening to advice from good friends here I returned it to
the dealer ( over a hundred miles away ) No problem with that but opted for
a refund ( once bitten.....)
I have other excellent amps anyway,. 1) my prized Mambo 12" spkr. 2) Vibrolux
3)a Polytone with 15" spkr and , 4) an Evans AH200 + Mambo 2x8 PA speaker cab
and/or a Raezers Edge 12" ER. and not in need of another really
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That’s too bad! Definitely not typical of the amp - I wonder what happened to it. It does sound like you have some great amp options there though. My other Henriksen was a Convertible, which was also a great amp, and that was a quiet amp too. I haven’t heard of any that had a buzz that were working properly so if you did feel the calling to get another one I wouldn’t expect a buzz unless something was wrong. Originally Posted by silverfoxx
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