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  1. #1

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    Since I've never gotten to play a Gibson Citation I would love to hear from anyone who has as to how it compares to a Gibson Johnny Smith.

    I realize that handmade guitars vary from one to the other even if it's the same model but any observations comparing the Citation to the Johnny Smith would be appreciated.

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  3. #2

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    The one Citation I played may not be enough of a sample to go by. However, I looked the guitar over very thoroughly. My impression was that (a) the guitar was certainly the pinnacle of Gibson's archtop efforts, and (b) it represented an attempt to create an archtop with an elegant acoustic voice--the electric voice seemed a secondary consideration, IMO. In these regards, the Citation struck me as very much in keeping with the Kalamazoo Award model guitars I have played by Gibson, only even more "deluxe" in its appointments and selection of woods.

    The Citation did not sound particularly like the Johnny Smiths I have played, except for the fact that both models are carved acoustic archtop Gibsons with suspended neck pickups. The Citation was, again, the more _acoustic_ electric guitar. It had a nice, big acoustic sound (as does the Kalamazoo Award). I suspect that if you took a caliper to the top plate of a Citation and to a Johnny Smith, you would find that the Citation is carved more in the fashion of a Heritage Golden Eagle (after all, the Citations were probably carved by the same guys that carved the Golden Eagles, until recently), and the JS top plate is carved more like an X-braced L-5 (i.e., thicker). Tonally, my impressions would lead to these expectations.

    I loved the Citation--but couldn't afford it. I love Gibson Johnny Smiths. Each has a different sound, but each is an extremely valid acoustic-electric archtop sound. Electrically, I prefer the JS. Acoustically, I prefer the Citation (and KA).

    Hope this helps. I don't know if Danny W. has owned a Citation, but he certainly has plenty of experience with the Kalamazoo Award--much the same guitar. If he sees this thread, he can add meaningfully to this.

  4. #3

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    Just to throw in another part of the equation, how does the LeGrand fit in? I always thought it was supposed to replace the JS, but with a few changes (scale, smaller headstock, etc). I believe the Super V was an exact L5 body with a S400 neck.

  5. #4

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    My Le Grand is a better acoustic archtop than an electric IMHO ...

    and it is a very nice electric ... electrically, it sounds to me like the Benedetto and other boutique archtops I hear demo'd on the internet ... as opposed to a more traditional Gibson voicing

    I have never played a Citation .. would love to

    The Johnny Smiths I have played were all from the 60s IIRC .. maybe an early 70s model ... very dead acoustic voices from what I remember ... they may have been great electrics, but I don't remember plugging them in


    Danny W has a nice collection of Citations and Kalamazoo Awards .... he has had a few of each listed for sale on here ... wish I could afford one

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    The one Citation I played may not be enough of a sample to go by. However, I looked the guitar over very thoroughly. My impression was that (a) the guitar was certainly the pinnacle of Gibson's archtop efforts, and (b) it represented an attempt to create an archtop with an elegant acoustic voice--the electric voice seemed a secondary consideration, IMO. In these regards, the Citation struck me as very much in keeping with the Kalamazoo Award model guitars I have played by Gibson, only even more "deluxe" in its appointments and selection of woods.

    The Citation did not sound particularly like the Johnny Smiths I have played, except for the fact that both models are carved acoustic archtop Gibsons with suspended neck pickups. The Citation was, again, the more _acoustic_ electric guitar. It had a nice, big acoustic sound (as does the Kalamazoo Award). I suspect that if you took a caliper to the top plate of a Citation and to a Johnny Smith, you would find that the Citation is carved more in the fashion of a Heritage Golden Eagle (after all, the Citations were probably carved by the same guys that carved the Golden Eagles, until recently), and the JS top plate is carved more like an X-braced L-5 (i.e., thicker). Tonally, my impressions would lead to these expectations.

    I loved the Citation--but couldn't afford it. I love Gibson Johnny Smiths. Each has a different sound, but each is an extremely valid acoustic-electric archtop sound. Electrically, I prefer the JS. Acoustically, I prefer the Citation (and KA).

    Hope this helps. I don't know if Danny W. has owned a Citation, but he certainly has plenty of experience with the Kalamazoo Award--much the same guitar. If he sees this thread, he can add meaningfully to this.
    Yeah, the Smith was the pinnacle of Gibson's archtop efforts, but that's because JS gave his D'A and the plans to it to Gibson. He described the day Gibson came over his house to get them in his biography.

  7. #6

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    ?Mine has an amazing acoustic voice, I think this video demo gives you a fairly accurate idea of what my Citation sounds like... Compared to a GJS, I don't have one to A/B it to... I have 4 Unity's, a Heritage American Eagle and a couple of older 17 inch L5s. They're all up there on the pedestal of my best sounding and playing guitars.


  8. #7

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    Sorry about that double post... here's another video of a Citation, this cat can really play it too...



    I also have an iPhone shot video of a friend playing my Citation after he restrung it with TI Jazz Swings, I won the guitar on a Heritage Auctions auction in October of 2017 and when it arrived it had 10's on it... The nut and bridge were cut for 13's so it was a no brainer getting it restrung...

    Big

    Michael W. Hale - My new buddy Miki
    I just bought his ‘65... | Facebook

  9. #8

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    I played a friend's 2004 Citation extensively, owned a Super V for years, have (or had) several boutique archtops (Benedetto, Megas, Ribbecke, Mirabella,) and recently purchased a new LeGrand (from CME).

    I always thought the Citation's amplified tone was the best I'd ever hear - bar none. The acoustic tone was good, but fell slightly short of the best of the boutique instruments. I just received the LeGrand and don't have a lot of time with it, but was immediately impressed with it's tone - both acoustically and amplified. It seems to be an outstanding blend of the sweetness of the Gibson tone and the acoustic richness of the boutique instruments. The sustain up and down the fretboard is amazing. The pickup is very impressive. (Do any of you know who builds the pick-ups Gibson uses on the Legrand?)

    As nice as the Citation was, I have a feeling the LeGrand may be the instrument that brings it all together for the tone that I've been looking for - both acoustic and amplified.

    Albert

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKA
    I played a friend's 2004 Citation extensively, owned a Super V for years, have (or had) several boutique archtops (Benedetto, Megas, Ribbecke, Mirabella,) and recently purchased a new LeGrand (from CME).

    I always thought the Citation's amplified tone was the best I'd ever hear - bar none. The acoustic tone was good, but fell slightly short of the best of the boutique instruments. I just received the LeGrand and don't have a lot of time with it, but was immediately impressed with it's tone - both acoustically and amplified. It seems to be an outstanding blend of the sweetness of the Gibson tone and the acoustic richness of the boutique instruments. The sustain up and down the fretboard is amazing. The pickup is very impressive. (Do any of you know who builds the pick-ups Gibson uses on the Legrand?)

    As nice as the Citation was, I have a feeling the LeGrand may be the instrument that brings it all together for the tone that I've been looking for - both acoustic and amplified.

    Albert

    Sounds like you found a really great Le Grand ....

    I'm guessing there is enough variance between guitars that some Le Grands are better than some Citations and some Citations are better than some Le Grands ....

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    Just to throw in another part of the equation, how does the LeGrand fit in? I always thought it was supposed to replace the JS, but with a few changes (scale, smaller headstock, etc). I believe the Super V was an exact L5 body with a S400 neck.
    I never played a Citation. I do own a Legrand and Johnny Smith. Judging from the videos posted, the Legrand is a lot closer in terms of sound to the Citation, than the Johnny Smith. It makes sense they are both the same scale (25.5) where as the Johnny Smith is 25". Johnny Smith has a distinctive personality.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiboyny
    I never played a Citation. I do own a Legrand and Johnny Smith. Judging from the videos posted, the Legrand is a lot closer in terms of sound to the Citation, than the Johnny Smith. It makes sense they are both the same scale (25.5) where as the Johnny Smith is 25". Johnny Smith has a distinctive personality.
    I just read Gibson's LeGrand web page. There are errors regarding the JS/LG specs.

    Gibson Custom Archtop Electric Guitars

  13. #12

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    Ya know I've been thinking about this one a lot... I think it all boils down to personal taste, what floats your boat. Part of the Gibson Johnny Smith thing is Johnny is such a legend that many guys kill themselves to play like him and to sound like him. Like many dudes try to sound like Wes, or Pat Metheny, or Joe Pass or Tal Farlow (and on and on...).

    I know I love my Citation, and I am sure a lot of Johnny Smith fans could emulate him on a Citation just as easily as on a Gibson Johnny Smith...

    It's all good. What makes me happy, seeing guys getting off big time on their guitars and making beautiful music... Your joy is my joy...

    Big

  14. #13

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    Mike,

    You nailed it. Lots of folks want to sound like their heroes. I played an ES 175 forever because of this. Later, I started listening to guitars on their own merits. I gravitated towards Heritage, Unity, and that sort of thing.

    Doesn't matter who played it...unless I am now a Big Mike fan boy.

  15. #14

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    There are so many other players that have played and sounded great on a Johnny smith that for me when I think of the Gibson Johnny smith I barely acociate it with Johnny. i think the blend of specs is what made it such a desirable piece. The bulk of johnnys recordings were done on his Dangellico. I'm sure the Citation would make a great choice for most of smiths arrangements.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
    Ya know I've been thinking about this one a lot... I think it all boils down to personal taste, what floats your boat. Part of the Gibson Johnny Smith thing is Johnny is such a legend that many guys kill themselves to play like him and to sound like him. Like many dudes try to sound like Wes, or Pat Metheny, or Joe Pass or Tal Farlow (and on and on...).

    I know I love my Citation, and I am sure a lot of Johnny Smith fans could emulate him on a Citation just as easily as on a Gibson Johnny Smith...

    It's all good. What makes me happy, seeing guys getting off big time on their guitars and making beautiful music... Your joy is my joy...

    Big

  16. #15

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    If I remember correctly the Citation has the same specs as a L-5C acoustic archtop (25&1/2" cale, 17" X 3&3/8ths depth,etc.) Where as the JS is 25" scale 17"X3" and 1/2" shorter body length. I also believe the early JS guitars had their entire neck length under their fingerboard into the body as well.

    Hard to beat the Gibson Johnny Smith as the iconic archtop design!

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    If I remember correctly the Citation has the same specs as a L-5C acoustic archtop (25&1/2" cale, 17" X 3&3/8ths depth,etc.) Where as the JS is 25" scale 17"X3" and 1/2" shorter body length. I also believe the early JS guitars had their entire neck length under their fingerboard into the body as well.

    Hard to beat the Gibson Johnny Smith as the iconic archtop design!
    Neither of my Citations was as big as an L-5C. About 3" in depth and 16.5" wide, slightly shorter, too.

    Danny W.
    Last edited by Danny W.; 04-19-2018 at 12:41 AM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I also believe the early JS guitars had their entire neck length under their fingerboard into the body as well.
    Ah yes. The neck/fingerboard is attached to the top all the way to the end, instead of fingerboard floating above the top. Smith's idea/goal was to increase sustain on the higher notes.

  19. #18

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    If you've played a GJS, I believe you will see that this innovation worked quite well. The carvers at Heritage (and Aaron Cowles at Unity) carried this bit over in their work when they stayed behind in Kalamazoo, after Gibson left for Memphis.

    Johnny Smith, of course, transferred his loyalty to Heritage at that point.

  20. #19

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    Thanks Danny W. for the clarification of specs. You'd be The Man, when it comes to Gibson Archtops!

  21. #20

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    I have played them both but very hard to compare. A great JS Gibson can be spot on better but the Citation has more bottom end. Johnny did not like a rumbling bass sound on an acoustic guitar he wanted the highs to stand out. Some JS Suffer from overbuilt and heavy. This is one reason Johnny got irritated with QC along with neck differences.

    Citations vary less due to detail attention and are rounder in sound. I would take a perfect JS over a Citation but really it is personal preference. I would a lively Citation over any JS. But just to make comparison farther down to others, no JS or Citation comes close to the power and acoustic sound of any Hollenbeck. My own Hollenbeck far exceeds any JS and played numerous times with others acoustically. Note my Hollenbeck is an 18 but my friend Jim has 17 inch lives down the road his Hollenbeck is a loud as mine just less bottom. A well made Benedetto or Campellone exceeds all but a select number of JS guitars.

    This is an important point. Having spent years with Barker and Hollenbeck both said that regardless of what they did trying to repeat a guitar in sound was hit and miss. Sometimes doing everything exact on the carving graduations only yielded similar characteristics but not actual sound. Once in a while for who knows why, a guitar just stood out as a killer sound. Not that others were less in quality but the guitar just had magic. Some of that is personal preference. Barker always said if someone ask him about buying a new one or a used Barker, if they like the sound of the used one get if fast. He said I cannot guarantee a new one would be better.

    Finally my friend Jim I mention owns a Barker Guitar made by Bill Hollenbeck finished years after Barker died. It is carved and braced like a Barker but neck dimensions and finished done by Hollenbeck. This guitar is one such animal it has something, I have no idea what but it plays and sounds wonderful. Bottom line is go with first impressions and use your gut feeling.......ear and hand. If it fits buy it might not get better. This has happened to me.
    Last edited by deacon Mark; 04-20-2018 at 02:25 PM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny W.
    Neither of my Citations was as big as an L-5C. About 3" in depth and 16.5" wide, slightly shorter, too.

    Danny W.
    I'm assuming they were custom orders?

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    I'm assuming they were custom orders?
    You assume incorrectly. Both of my Citations and my LeGrands were this size.

    Danny W.

  24. #23

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    Interesting conversation.
    I just picked up a Citation. I played several years ago at Mandolin Brothers, a few LeGrands there and at the Music Zoo, owned a LeGrand and many Johnny Smiths including 2 first years and 70s as well. Also owned 3 Buscarinos and a Campalone Special. All these are fantastic guitars and it will come down to the individual guitar and player. I love the new Citation and it will not be going back after a 14 day trial period. My Legrand was tighter sounding I believe due to a thicker top carve. Same with all the Johnny Smiths save 1, that was odd in that the neck floated above the body.
    The Buscarinos were amazing in that "Newer" type of jazz guitar sound. Extremely delicate sounding and beautiful, but not as good if you picked harder or really dug in. The Citation sounds huge with a big bottom and very mellow top end. It's not real loud, but really sweet with no hard edges and a soft attack which I like acoustically. Very round and rich sounding. I have a Gibson Lee Rit L5 with a floating pup that is much smaller in size and sound but has similar very round, warm sound. In any case, all great guitars. I always wanted a Citation, and to my ear, it's on par acoustically with all the top smaller builders out there. I still make regular trips to Lark Street music, and between them and all my former visits and purchases at Mando, am familiar with the Benedettos, DAngelico...Aquistos etc etc. All great builders that made some fantastic instruments....and some clunkers. Gibson is no different, but the Citations I have played are all right up there with the best of them, and I'm not the biggest Gibson fan generally speaking. Great guitar!

  25. #24

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    They say tone is all in the fingers. That's not always true. Here is the same brilliant artist with two very different instruments. I know which tone I like better. One is excellent the other is, well, other worldly!



  26. #25

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    impossible to tell from terrible recordings imo