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03-12-2018 02:55 PM
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Saw that. Perfect storm, no? Gibson acquires companies outside its core area of expertise. At the same time, it discovers that one of the biggest holders of its inventories (GC) is falling prey to brick-and-mortar disease, i.e., it's a brick-and-mortar establishment trying to compete with purely digital retailers. Another Sears/K-Mart/etc. bites the dust.
Tough circumstances.
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If the price is right, many things begin looking very attractive.
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It's going to be a Norlin v. 2.0: "Your worst nightmare starts again".
Mark my words!
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You're already seeing the sales from people who bought the blowout CME instruments and are taking on $500 for a quick profit. That will only increase. I can see it now, CME/Memphis/Pre-Chinese Gibson 275s going for $3500-$4000!
Originally Posted by LtKojak
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Guilds and Epiphones (and to a lesser extent D'Angelicos) have been hurt by Asian made guitars with those names on the headstock. While some Japanese made guitars are the equal (or better) to any American made guitars, a stigma still attaches when it comes to the free market price point. Gibson's American made pedigree adds value, no matter the logic of such. Originally Posted by jzucker
If Gibson IS bought by Chinese investors, but remains a US manufactured product, I am not sure it will have much effect on prices of old Gibsons. I remember when it was thought that Nashville Gibsons would have less appeal than Kalamazoo Gibsons and in fact, (to some extent) the opposite occurred.
The CME blowout was a buy for sure (I sold one of mine for a $200 profit on Craigslist and may have been able to get more if I waited, but I did not like the guitar and was happy to try it and be paid for auditioning it). Where the price of Gibson guitars goes from here is anyone's guess. My advice is buy them to enjoy them. If prices go up, you will look smart, if prices go down, you enjoyed a fine musical instrument, worth whatever depreciation you suffer. It is a win either way.
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IMO Gibson can still be a cash cow for many more years. Many things must change like QC, pricing, and a new Captain to steer the boat in the right direction. HJ is right though about customers being stuck in the 1950’s. We love the old models and resist the new.
Harley is the same. When they veered off there traditional styling with the V-Rod model it bombed just like the robot tuners did. Both companies are stuck in a styling time capsule.
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He is partially right about being stuck in the past but their new models have not been that great, at best, and at worst actually made instruments worse like with the robot tuners. So while he can blame the lack of sales on guitar stores not having couches and say that people don’t want innovations there is a lot unsaid about what they have been doing wrong and choosing to blame external factors.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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I'm watching this one with great curiosity. One thing I learned about having worked with Asian factories (in my time at Ibanez) and Chinese craftsmen and luthiers (in my time after) is Chinese build cheap and good because that's what American parent companies want. I have also seen Chinese luthiers build flat top guitars that humble American companies like Martin and Taylor. Eastman does this but it's not what they're generally known for, but they have the chops. I've also seen Chinese archtops that are seriously more meticulously crafted and every bit the professional instrument of the highest standards-bar none. You don't see them over here because importers just want them for cheapness.
A while ago Chinese started making Leica and Hasselblad part for part duplicate cameras that matched the German originals under the closest scrutiny, even duplicating the threading standards. Then they used this mastery of the technology to improve designs on consumer and pro gear at a fraction of the price.
If China wanted to make a 1939 L-5, or a copy of a Matisse that would fool a museum, or an original design that Jimmy D' would've been proud of, believe me, they can do it. They put together a space program in record time by deciding they needed to. Now for a Chinese operation to buy Gibson for the sake of making an end run around all legal departments of Norlin Gibson... no lawsuits if you own the parent company, they could do it.
Somebody in China just has to think it's an idea that makes sense. They could build Gibsons like you haven't seen in decades, and you could see them at a much more competitive price. So I'm watching this one with great interest.
David
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My impression of Gibson was that they really didn't listen to their consumers, at least as far as their new models were concerned.
The ES-275 seems like the only "new" model that really hit the mark.
They did some strange things like reissuing the L6-S, and Les Paul Recording - but both of them weren't actually true 'reissues' - both had completely wrong electronics, and weren't even accurate cosmetically... it makes little sense to reissue models that have very little demand, not to mention being more expensive than the real thing.
Then there was the firebird X, the Dusk Tiger....
all of which were meant to be innovative, but really were the answers to questions that nobody asked.
Probably best described as 'misplaced innovation'.
It might be a bit like what happened with Jaguar - many cringed at the thought of it being owned by Tata (India) - but they're still making good cars as far as I'm aware.
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What you have is an entire industry built on the premise that rock & roll will never die. Even though Gibson guitars are used in a variety of genres, for several decades R&R was the cash cow. It fed the recording industry, the live music industry and the musical instrument business (among others I'm sure I'm forgetting). All of the businesses in those categories are suffering now because rock music is in a long, slow decline. I think it's silly to do a lot of finger-pointing, yes mistakes were made, there's no shortage of that. But plenty of mistakes were made in the 1970s too. The difference is the cash was flowing so those mistakes were just brushed aside. Now that the well has gone dry every mistake is magnified.
It's sad and it's hard for some of us to accept, I'm 56, I grew up during the "hey day" of rock when it seemed like the gravy train would roll forever. Things change. Gibson will survive in some form, though I doubt most of us will be very satisfied with what it looks like or what it produces after this year.
Sorry to sound so gloomy, but I think I'm being realistic. Believe me, I wish it weren't so, but we're deep into the DJ culture, that's where the money is being spent and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
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Gibson is a fantastic brand, it will go on surely. Maybe the next incarnation will be an improvement!
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In my opinion , there is no doubt that if Asian money bought Gibson ...the manufacturing processes will be improved to nearly six sigma quality and no expense will be spared in achieving this goal. In fact , our complaints about poor workmanship will come to an end .
But .....how will it feel to know your playing an Asian Gibson. We will likely convince ourselves that pre Asian Gibson’s sound better, even if they don’t. No different than picking up a perfectly made import in GC and liking it ... until we look at the headstock.
Also ,how long will it take for market acceptance of this possible change . Of course this is all speculation.
As for the future - I think Hutch period Gibson’s will be golden - and become highly desirable post war Gibson instruments. Pre -war stuff is too pricey and usually in some needed repair, and usually sold without full disclosure of originality or past history of repairs. Most of the great pre war examples are in private collections anyway.
Even Norlin period guitars will be seen in a different light . It will be just like our feeling towards Heritage right now - even though build quality is improving our lineage to the craftsmanship of a USA hand made guitar ( as we know it )will become increasingly nebulous and a bit unsettling.
But fast forward 50 years and we will ( of course not us) be loving those Asian Gibson’s when AI robots take over.
Bottom line we don’t like change - we just want Gibson to be like the Gibson we all grew up loving.
I hope there is a happy ending to this turmoil.
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Change is the way of life. To resist is futile. Imagine a new Asian made L5 made to a high standard available at a consumer friendly $3999 price. If the guitar was right, I'd buy one. And I agree on the Hutch made guitars. I've had the privilege of owning 4, and each was nothing less than sublime.
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While admire my Norlin L5CES, I really DIG my Chinese made Epiphone '61 RI Casino, the one guitar I wasn't looking for. It grabbed me at a GC.
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no shock...they already had gilson
cheers
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I've played quite a few Eastman flat top guitars, and also owned a couple of their better archtops too. They make good guitars, but just not a Martin or Gibson (sorry, I'm not a big Taylor fan). Eastman has a very nice build quality and can get into the ball park tonally, but they are still only 85% IMO. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
And then there is Collings.
I for one don't really want to see Gibson sold to over seas investors.
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It will all change..who ever thought General Motors would go bust..my home inventory has 4 or 5 items made in the USA..one is my Les Paul Classic Antique..2006..I was lucky..its a great instrument..the "new" models I have played at local shops disappoint a lot..yeah I want USA products to be top quality..there are still many companies that produce top products and services..
many here care about our instruments..guitars are very personal and become friends..If you have one that really sings..you love it..almost cant stop playing it..( I have been late to places because I just wanted "to play that one Miles Davis line" ) Many of us are "craftsmen" ..sorry..craftpersons..(grrrr) and appreciate the time and effort in creating something that has care and beauty ingrained in it..a composition or a must have guitar..
for me the time I have invested in playing my guitar makes it worth far more than book value..so should I find a quality guitar made in a different country but has a quality and care feel to it I would not shy away from buying it..
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Not just a stylistic time capsule but a technology time capsule as well. That's because both Harleys and Gibsons are luxuries rather than necessities. Chevy was allowed to move on from the 1967 Camaro because people need their cars to work properly- if not, they don't go to their jobs, don't buy groceries, don't get their kids to the doctor and soccer practice, etc. Modern cars are more reliable, perform better and last longer than they did 50 years ago. Owning a '67 Camaro is not about getting the groceries. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
But if your Harley doesn't run right? Then you get the fun of tearing it down and fixing it. Every Harley owner I know loves the winter teardown and rebuild to keep the thing running. It's part of the Harley culture. Honda Goldwing owners don't seem to be so much into that. Harley owners don't want the tech to advance- the romance and mystique is the old-school nature of it. If it was good enough for Sonny Barger 50 years ago, it's good enough. It connects us to the culture and the tradition.
Ditto Gibsons- it's the romance. Scotty Moore, Joe Pass, Jim Hall, Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Johnny Smith, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Duane Allman.... played guitars JUST LIKE THIS ONE. It's a connection to our heroes and a chance to step into their shoes for a second. We want that ES-175 to be just like Joe's '61, Jim's '54; the Les Paul to be just like Duane's '58; the ES-335 just like Grant Green's or Larry Carlton's. It takes us there.
Gibsons made in China aren't going to take us there, even if they have perfect QC, great woods and meticulous craftsmanship.
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I, for one, welcome our new Gibson Chinese overlords... Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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It seems pretty unlikely that anyone even remotely involved with the "golden age" of Gibson is connected to the current company today so I'm not quite sure what the objections would be to a Chinese ownership. . .unless someone actually thinks that Chinese people can't make guitars as well.
Frankly I can't imagine that anyone (including Chinese investors) that has done their homework would want to get into the guitar business at this point, inventory in the U.S. is astronomical and demand is not growing. One clue might be the average age of participants in forums like this one.
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Why do we assume that Chinese ownership means China located manufacture? The Chinese are buying up lots of America. I believe that it would be very foolish of them to move it offshore.
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Can well be true. Swedish car manufacturer Volvo is now Chinese owned but they still develop and make the cars in Sweden to the same standards as always. What they have bought - apart from earnings - is access to technology and knowhow which can be freely and legally used instead of reverse engineered and copied (in principle illegally). Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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This news right after I read that Heritage was bought out, at least in part, by a Singapore billionaire's son. Times are a changing.
Thank goodness no matter what happens all those existing guitars will be available on the used market.
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As soon as they take over, they will pass a new law that gives them ownership of the company for ever. Originally Posted by sgcim
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