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  1. #76

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    Interesting news, no matter how much written in marketing way or not.

    Thinking about how the Gibson gets all the shit about the QC that is nowadays ’crap’ it was interesting to read the line:

    ”(...) These “old Gibson habits” and standards are a long standing and well known Kalamazoo standard. (...)”

    So the poor QC has been in the core of Gibson magic from the beginning! Henry just has kept it alive and made it even better!

    (No, I am not a Gibson basher, nor a Heritage. Now having 4 Gibbys. Never seen much of Heritages here in Finland, so can’t say anything about then. Not even about the headstock!)

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  3. #77

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    I have a dream, a fantasy really, that someone with some financial smarts yet a love for guitars takes over Gibson and the first thing they do is merge with Heritage. Reclaim the glory as it were.

    They sell off all the non-guitar stuff and focus on making quality guitars for all price points--customs for the collectors, no-frills workhorses like the 135 for the working musician. And the Gibson "heritage" continues.

    It's a silly dream, I know.

  4. #78

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    l keep seeing posts about how great their Heritage is. Maybe somebody forgot to tell me, but I have only played one stellar sounding Heritage (Sweet 16 w/floater), I really don't feel Heritage made great sounding or great playing guitars overall. They made usable functional guitars with fairly mundane aesthetics.

    And my apologies for angering some of you, but really? You have a Heritage that comes close to a really good Gibson Johnny Smith?
    And yes I played Heritages version of a J.S. And way too many Golden eagles,etc. I even owned 3 or 4 models with H550 being the best of the lot.

    As harsh as this seems, I believe this is why changes are happening. It looks as though Pete Farmer might actually be making some high quality guitars. At least from a NAMM video I saw recently. And hopefully this will be the new bar they meet for all production

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    l keep seeing posts about how great their Heritage is. Maybe somebody forgot to tell me, but I have only played one stellar sounding Heritage (Sweet 16 w/floater), I really don't feel Heritage made great sounding or great playing guitars overall. They made usable functional guitars with fairly mundane aesthetics.
    I'm no stranger to Gibson by a long shot. Nor am I with Heritage. I can't generally say one brand is better than another in the carved archtop realm.

    I have a bias since I have access to guitars that have been built by the best at Heritage. Maybe I've been spared some losers because of this. But that alone wouldn't explain why some of the best Gibson luthiers found Heritage to be of the same build quality. That includes Aaron Cowles, Pete Moreno, JP Moats, and Marv Lamb, among others.

    It's not fair to compare the Gibson JS to the Heritage because the body sizes are different. But Johnny found the build quality at Heritage to be as good or slightly better, at least in the first few years of Heritage production. My Heritage JS is a work of art and great skill.

    Patrick (RIP) was as critical as any reasonable person could be. Several of his Heritages were at the top of his heap.

    I have known people who have received several disappointing Heritages, so I know it can happen. But I'm very happy with mine, and they keep my L-5 and Super 400 company as equals.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    I have a dream, a fantasy really, that someone with some financial smarts yet a love for guitars takes over Gibson and the first thing they do is merge with Heritage. Reclaim the glory as it were.

    They sell off all the non-guitar stuff and focus on making quality guitars for all price points--customs for the collectors, no-frills workhorses like the 135 for the working musician. And the Gibson "heritage" continues.

    It's a silly dream, I know.

    Some variation of that is probably going to happen .... although merging with Heritage seems unlikely

    I doubt the Nashville factory shuts down ... certainly not for good

    Gibson has a valuable brand rep and by most reports the guitar sales are doing alright .. even if they aren't what they were 15 years ago

    it's all that other crap that they bought on credit that's dragging them down

  7. #81

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    Umm.. no. At Heritage or any other business you don't lay off a group of people for being 'resistant to change'. Especially a percentage of your established and trained workforce. And I really don't think management would suggest in public that this was a dismissal for cause. Especially given the context and reasons we've been presented. It would open them to lawsuits. Strange discussion.

    What appears most likely, though still conjecture, is that they are in serious trouble and shrinking. They will pull back to their most profitable guitars, preserve capital wherever they can, and hope to weather the storm. In the meantime those in a vested position will seek to put the best face on it in an effort to maintain brand value and to keep sales from plummeting.

    I wish them well but IMHO, what we're being told is pure fantasy.
    Last edited by Spook410; 02-26-2018 at 05:29 AM.

  8. #82

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    Heritage guitars were, and to a large extent are, built the old school way. They even use very old equipment for some builds. Many people feel good about that. It's not logical though.

    I have reservations about how Heritage has run over the last 30 years. Patrick had a lot of criticisms. Nonetheless, both of us got some primo instruments from them. I never ordered a build. But I have bought new from people I know and trust. I have not been disappointed.

    If I had to bet on a factory archtop without seeing it, I'd put my money on American Guilds. Coming from Kalamazoo, that saddens me, but my experience has taught me that. Fortunately, I rarely have to go on blind faith.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    Heritage guitars were, and to a large extent are, built the old school way. They even use very old equipment for some builds. Many people feel good about that. It's not logical though.

    I have reservations about how Heritage has run over the last 30 years. Patrick had a lot of criticisms. Nonetheless, both of us got some primo instruments from them. I never ordered a build. But I have bought new from people I know and trust. I have not been disappointed.

    If I had to bet on a factory archtop without seeing it, I'd put my money on American Guilds. Coming from Kalamazoo, that saddens me, but my experience has taught me that. Fortunately, I rarely have to go on blind faith.
    I have never played a bad Heritage, but must admit that most that I have tried have not been stellar either. My Heritage built D'Angelico replica is an awesome guitar, but the inlay work is terrible (I think it can be fixed when the guitar gets a refret). My Heritage 535 was an overly bright guitar and it had Duncan 59's. I have never had a semi hollow that was as bright. But the workmanship on that guitar was first rate. Perhaps if the body had been as thick as it's Gibson 335 counterpart, it would have been warmer ? Reading Jabb's comments tells me that some terrible Heritages are out there. But as we all know, some terrible Gibson's exist as well.

    I have played some of those terrible Gibsons (and that includes some pre Norlin examples). But I have played (and owned) many superlative Gibsons. American Guilds have indeed all had terrific workmanship.

    Buying sight unseen is always a crapshoot. Play before you buy or have a return option is smart money when it comes to guitars.

  10. #84

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    I want to clarify I'm no fan of Henry J (Gibson CEO) in any shape or form! But the fact is there really is no comparison between the newer Gibson Archtops and every Heritage archtop I've ever laid my hands on.

    Personal tastes and costs of these guitars aside. I really wish Heritage made the great archtops some of you claim to own. But after 30 years of trying dozens of them and only finding one Sweet 16 that was great, is not a good record.
    I'm 60 years old and a pro player since age of 17. I've also over that time played hundreds of vintage, boutique archtops from D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Barker, Benedetto,Megas, Andersen,Comins,Buscarino, Campellone, Unger, even Hutchins Gibsons.
    And yes Gibson did make some real dogs over many decades as well!

    I'm not saying I'm not biased nor the only person who can have an opinion. I'm saying I have a researched and experienced opinion about Heritage Guitars. And while their laminate models are generally good quality guitars, not so much in the Carved Top range.
    Aarron Cowles may be the exception of the above people mentioned in above posts. But I believe he had Unity Guitars if I'm not mistaken, and was not a full timer at Heritage. I'm not an expert on that.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I'm not trying to slam older Heritage guitars at all. They seemed to have the same range of quality that the 1950-80 Gibsons had. Most were good to excellent with a few sub-par. The custom built archtops were commonly stellar, probably because the Heritage owners had a big hand in the builds. The routine archtops were more variable.
    My own experience exemplifies this. My carved Heritage JS was a phenomenal guitar in all ways, one of the best, truest, easiest playing necks ever. My 555 's neck was like a crooked boner, ...er, ... banana, sorry.

  12. #86

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    Aaron has told me that JP Moats, Marv Lamb, and Jim Hutchins were at the same level as Aaron as far as producing a great acoustic instrument. He also said Jim Deurloo was excellent.

    Aaron left Gibson prior to Heritage. He did piece work for Heritage for maybe 20 years. I never heard Aaron criticize Heritage more than Gibson. He repaired quite a few of both. In fact, Aaron's personal favorite guitar was comprised of Heritage H-550 thinline body and a Heritage neck Aaron carved.

    I don't disagree that both Gibson and Heritage could have done better. Their model was taking untrained people off of the streets and teaching them how to build guitars. Most of them took a job at Gibson because Gibson was hiring and it was indoor work. That is less true with the first 30 years of Heritage, but it was still often the case.

    The problem with the carved top Heritages is that the result depended heavily on the carver. The same is true with the necks. Maybe that is very obvious, but it explains a lot. Further, the best Heritages probably don't get on the market as much as the others.

    JP Moats built my Heritage Johnny Smith. The quality is as good as one of the best Gibson builds. The body is smaller than a Gibson, so there should be a difference in tone. If you don't like that difference, you'd be better off with a Gibson. It's not a matter of quality, at least with my guitar.

    The old timers from Gibson and Heritage are dying out. I've had conversations with many of them for many years. They find it curious that so much is said about their work since the 1950s. They were just doing their jobs, some better than others. No one got close to wealthy. They were blue collar. It amuses them mightily that their solid bodies from 1959 are worth as much as their homes or more.

    I'm just giving you my perspective. We in Kalamazoo see things differently I guess.
    Last edited by Marty Grass; 02-26-2018 at 05:19 PM.

  13. #87

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    I know jaDS 57 ,HE knows more about guitar gear than any 10 players i know having said that i still like my golden eagle but the 2 other heritage guitars i owned were sub par and over priced mickmac

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass

    JP Moats built my Heritage Johnny Smith. The quality is as good as one of the best Gibson builds. The body is smaller than a Gibson, so there should be a difference in tone. If you don't like that difference, you'd be better off with a Gibson. It's not a matter of quality, at least with my guitar.
    MG,
    Based on my experience, I agree on the quality statement. In fact, The fit and finish on all my HJS's were top notch.
    The only differences I've been able to perceive are;
    the Heritage tops are carved a little thinner which results in a much better acoustic sound on the Heritage.
    The necks, while having the same general dimensions, feel very different. My Heritage JS is more comfortable to me for some reason.
    The Heritage bridge fitaments are a joke.
    The Heritage Electronics are pretty close to a joke.
    The Heritage used an extra inlay of Abalone on the neck.

    My Gibson JS (17") feels way more SOLID than both of my ex-HJS's (17). Ronaldo told me he always felt the thickness of the wood used on the sides had something to do with that.

    My Johnny's are the bookends of my lineup and I sincerely hope that life doesn't get in the way and I never have to part with either of them while I am still alive.. They compliment each other perfectly. It helps that my HJS is 18"

    Once again, thank YOU for that..

    Joe D

  15. #89

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    The 'uproar' Marty referred to can be read about in painful detail, almost immediately after the purge, via his links he included in his original post, to the Heritage Owners Club. Most of the comments here drifted to build quality. That horse has been beaten to a pulp over the years. I must either be the luckiest Heritage guitar owner, or the most mediocre at finding build flaws. Each of my Heritage guitars have been exemplary in tone, feel and build quality. Over the years that includes two H157's, three H150's, one H155, one H550, two H575's, one H535, one H555, one H530, one H525, one Sweet 16 and one Golden Eagle. OK, I didn't care for the tone of the Sweet 16, and sold it. In fact many of the guitars listed are long gone. Eight remain and are the best of the best.

    More importantly, Heritage's new owners terminated over a dozen employees, and another few decided to quit rather than work for the new regime. THAT is why there is an uproar!

  16. #90

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    I don't know if there's anything more to say except that these changes are an effect of modernity. Most of these guys who lost their jobs are probably in a world of hurt.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    The 'uproar' Marty referred to can be read about in painful detail, almost immediately after the purge, via his links he included in his original post, to the Heritage Owners Club. Most of the comments here drifted to build quality. That horse has been beaten to a pulp over the years. I must either be the luckiest Heritage guitar owner, or the most mediocre at finding build flaws. Each of my Heritage guitars have been exemplary in tone, feel and build quality. Over the years that includes two H157's, three H150's, one H155, one H550, two H575's, one H535, one H555, one H530, one H525, one Sweet 16 and one Golden Eagle. OK, I didn't care for the tone of the Sweet 16, and sold it. In fact many of the guitars listed are long gone. Eight remain and are the best of the best.

    More importantly, Heritage's new owners terminated over a dozen employees, and another few decided to quit rather than work for the new regime. THAT is why there is an uproar!
    Git' you're not the only lucky Heritage owner. I've owned some 20 Heritages, all archtops of all sizes, and not 1 of those archtops had a single issue. And each were later sold to buyers who had nothing to say about their purchase that was nothing less than gratitude. You're right, this horse has been beat to beyond dead, countless times on this forum. And we're not going to convince anyone about how great Heritage guitars were, no more so than those who've claim they owned poor Heritage guitars and so that means, in their mind, every Heritage archtop was trash. Is it possible product varied, absolutely. But how can product vary so much if not one of the 20 archtops I owned had a single issue or than an occasional refined bridge fitment. I only wish Patrick were here to set some of these naysayers straight. As the saying goes, opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one.

  18. #92

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    Mike.. I'm sure there are a number of folks here and over on the Heritage group that know much more about the company and their situation than I am interested in discovering. However, what I do know a bit about is business including hiring, and firing. You cannot fire a dozen employees then state publicly that they were let go for 'resistance to change'. That is like saying 'well.. you were the bad apples so we got rid of you'. They will sue you. And win. I will leave the particulars to those that are close to the company and industry. But there is certainly some oddity in all of the public noises.

  19. #93

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    Jay's comments aren't exactly independent, for as a businessman he's got to protect his business and Heritage guitar inventory. At the end of the day there are used Heritage archtop's available. The original Heritage guitar sold. In my mind Heritage ceased to exist the moment the former company sold. This new company is Heritage in name only. They're free to create whatever guitars, in the manner they choose. But it's not the old Heritage company that was built upon allowing customized builds. That was one big factors that made Heritage guitars so popular.

  20. #94

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    Well, I for one am glad that Marv, JP, Bill and Jim (all of whom signed the label of the Heritage built guitar that I will be keeping till the day I lose the battle with the grim reaper) formed Heritage Guitars. I am also glad that some new blood is trying to keep it afloat. Just as I am glad that Fender, Gibson and Harley-Davidson have survived with new owners.

    At 60 years of age, I figure I have another 20-30 years left. I hope that they are still building guitars in Kalamazoo long after I am gone. No matter what the headstock looks like. Long live Heritage Guitars!

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I have never played a bad Heritage, but must admit that most that I have tried have not been stellar either. My Heritage built D'Angelico replica is an awesome guitar, but the inlay work is terrible (I think it can be fixed when the guitar gets a refret). My Heritage 535 was an overly bright guitar and it had Duncan 59's. I have never had a semi hollow that was as bright. But the workmanship on that guitar was first rate. Perhaps if the body had been as thick as it's Gibson 335 counterpart, it would have been warmer ? Reading Jabb's comments tells me that some terrible Heritages are out there. But as we all know, some terrible Gibson's exist as well.

    I have played some of those terrible Gibsons (and that includes some pre Norlin examples). But I have played (and owned) many superlative Gibsons. American Guilds have indeed all had terrific workmanship.

    Buying sight unseen is always a crapshoot. Play before you buy or have a return option is smart money when it comes to guitars.
    My 1990's era blonde Heritage Golden Eagle was the finest guitar I ever owned or played, and I've got some honeys to compare. I sold it in the early 2000's to cover a debt and I have grieved that guitar deeply ever since. I really think about where it went, is it being played well, does it have a good home... It has bothered me more and more with each passing year.

    i likely have exaggerated how great it was with the passing of time, but I remember it being love at first chord, and I never stopped loving it. I actually sounded like a musician playing it.

    had my name engraved on the truss rod cover!

    The Heritage Guitar Company-jb-guitar01-jpg

  22. #96

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    I know you're right 2B, it's not gonna be the same. And Spook, you are right too.

    What I wanna say to all you guys is to repeat what Greg and others have said - there are lots of great used Heritage guitars out there in the marketplace. And lots of good used
    Gibsons too. We're all pretty savvy shoppers and we can ask each other for candid advice on a buy when we have to.

    As I said earlier, I've been downsized at middle age also, I spoke to Spook and I know he has too. It really sucked, I was never as comfortable financially or job wise after I got downsized. So these poor people that got let go, man what a drag... It would be so easy for us to get hot under the collar and start throwing molotov cocktails at each other and have this place totally melt down. We're not gonna do that. We gotta let the dust die down and try to hang as friends, lovers of fine archtop guitars... Anyone that wants to reach out to me via PM please do... Any Time...

    Big

  23. #97

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    Lawson, your Heritage was a beauty. I understand the regret. I will be keeping my Heritage built DA replica. Jay Wolfe told me that he regrets ever selling it (He sold it to Patrick2, whose estate sold it to JD, who sold it to me) and that he would like to buy it back. He will have to buy it from my widow after I am gone, lest I too will share a similar regret to yours.

  24. #98

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    Lawson, I too understand from previous sales and don't want to ever part with my five Heritage guitars, three of which I bought from Fran Amato (Patrick's HDA Excel, his favorite single pickup Golden Eagle, and an H150 - and American Eagle and a recent buy of a soft cut Sweet 16 (the American Eagle and Sweet 16 both have stellar Bubble Maple Jabbs).

    Big

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    My 1990's era blonde Heritage Golden Eagle was the finest guitar I ever owned or played, and I've got some honeys to compare. I sold it in the early 2000's to cover a debt and I have grieved that guitar deeply ever since. I really think about where it went, is it being played well, does it have a good home... It has bothered me more and more with each passing year.

    i likely have exaggerated how great it was with the passing of time, but I remember it being love at first chord, and I never stopped loving it. I actually sounded like a musician playing it.

    had my name engraved on the truss rod cover!

    The Heritage Guitar Company-jb-guitar01-jpg
    No you're not exaggerating. I owned too many GE's to remember. Each one unique to themselves and nothing other than fantastic acoustic archtops. But you were lucky, in that I always wanted to own a GE with the old style tailpiece with the black engraved shield like yours. You're absolutely right, you should regret the selling of that fine Golden Eagle...man was that a specimen....just look at that guitar! Sorry

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    No you're not exaggerating. I owned too many GE's to remember. Each one unique to themselves and nothing other than fantastic acoustic archtops. But you were lucky, in that I always wanted to own a GE with the old style tailpiece with the black engraved shield like yours. You're absolutely right, you should regret the selling of that fine Golden Eagle...man was that a specimen....just look at that guitar! Sorry
    I don't even have the serial number! I do know it was an early copy. That tailpiece I think was characteristic of the early run of these. I had them make a different pickguard with the "hotter" pickup and a tone control along with volume. I actually did gigs with it: playing in a local bookshop for a gift certificate, that sort of thing. That and my Polytone and I was in heaven. I also played in a regular jam session for about a year, and every time I pulled it out of the case, the room would noticeably quiet for a moment.

    The worst is, I sold it via one of those "We put it on eBay for you" outfits. I am almost allergic to credit card debt and had run up a bill of about $10K, so I was hyperventilating to get that paid off and foolishly sold the HGE. I got it... get ready... trading an 80's ES175+$500. And sold it.

    God will make me go to the spanking room for idiots before he lets me in heaven, I know.