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So all my 16" ES1x5 type guitars have the maple laminate construction. I hear periodically people express preference fo these guitars the mahogany laminated back and sides. I actually recently acquired an Epiphone Zephyr Regent Re-issue, which has the mahogany laminate back-sides construction and I'm forming some opinions on this question.
I'd like to hear your views and experiences on this, preferably views based on experiences, of course!
Is there a difference that can be explained without just saying "I like X better than Y?"
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12-28-2017 11:33 AM
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I find mahogany to be warmer and sweeter but with less cut or bark. (i.e. more mids and muted highs). I find that more appealing but that's strictly a matter of personal taste.
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AFAIK, the only generally accepted opinion is that most examples of each sound somewhat different, usually. Individual examples can vary. Preferences vary a lot.
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My personal bucket has an empty space and note by it that say's "place L4CES mahogany here"..
One fine day..
2B, still kicking myself...
JD
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My experience is that mahogany is more midrange focused than maple. I am a fan of the maple, but understand that it is purely a matter of taste. I like the wider tonal range of the maple (deeper lows, more defined highs).
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it really depends on the laminate used..is it 3 ply, 5 ply???..what woods the laminates actually made of...ex- many 3 plys have poplar middles... how were the layers joined, in which direction..etc etc
fellow forum member grez of grez guitars has a few interesting vids on laminates...including him actually showing the process he uses...here's 2 good overviews
cheers
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I think in a case like this, because of the number of variables, you have to assume the standard tonality associated with each wood type will be present, but muted slightly by the fact that they are laminated. By variables I mean, number of layers, orientation of the layers, type of glue, if all the layers are actually the same wood and the overall shape of the arch. With all this I can imagine some overlap in tonality where one companies stiff bright mahogany assembly could sound close to another companies loose and warm maple but generally they would sound like you expect.
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In all the examples I've tried, of different brands and vintages, I've come to seek out Mahogany whenever possible. It tends to make a lighter guitar, and playing wise, tends to be more responsive, "woody" and resonant on the attack, warmer on the decay. Maple solid carved is a different story, it has a "rounder" resonance when carved thin enough. Laminates are thicker and I don't feel maple translates as well as an acoustic wood when laminated by most makers. Mahogany, on the other hand has always retained the warmth and "airy" feel I like in a guitar.
I'm a finger style player so my sensibilities tend towards a lighter build anyway. I don't drive a guitar as hard as a player with a heavy plectrum strumming. That will surely have a bearing on the match of woods with the player.
David
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I would like to see a comparison video of same guitars. different laminates, this would be very interesting, if anyone has both then please post.
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You got the better sounding guitar, imo bro...all of them! Happy New Year!
Originally Posted by Max405
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I have built with a number of laminate configurations, and my experience is that when dealing with laminates the species doesn't mater much. what matters is how much mass the sides have and how stiff they are. Ironically I find stiff massive sides coupled to a lively back gives me the best results. I couldn't give you the scientific reason, but luthier Trevor Gore has an entire book dedicated to the science of guitar tone. Stiff sides and an active back is a recipe he also favors for some models.
When dealing with solid wood, the species has a lot to do with mass and stiffness. But most of that is lost when talking laminates.
One last thing to be aware of is the psycho-acoustics of the color of the instrument. Yes, the actual color. I recall one conference I went to where a presenter had done a study where the same recording was synched to videos of different guitars. Darker colored guitars were described as having a "darker" tone. it sounds crazy, but our brains do strange things.
That said, psycho-acoustics are real. Louder guitars are "better", darker ones are "mellow". Good thing I make guitars with black soundboards!
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keep in mind that it's highly unlikely that your epi reissue uses the same grade and formula mahogany plywood as the '80s 175s
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To be sure, at a tenth the cost, I didn't expect the same grade of wood. Originally Posted by jzucker
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The wood may actually be as good, or not, but adhesives have come a long way, and laminate quality has increased since back then.
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Well, that's an interesting notion. "Better" in what way? Stability over time? Thinner glue layer necessary? Something else? For example, construction grade laminates seem to tolerate wetness better than uses to be the case. I can certainly see "better" in terms of construction properties due to advances in adhesives, how would that translate into tone? Originally Posted by sgosnell
To what degree is the tone of laminates affected by the glue, the wood species, etc.? Maple-poplar-maple in the case of Gibson back in the day, were their mahogany laminates hog-poplar-hog? How about Nomex laminate cores in double top instruments?
The "holy grail" tones tend to be guitars built a long time ago with old technologies, so that restrains materials and mechanical advancement. Guitarists are frequently hidebound and conservative.
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Some have mentioned the stiffness or suppleness of the sound-board will have an effect on tone. I would venture that a lot of older laminates used Urea Formaldehyde based glues. In the last 30 years or so PVA glue has come a long way and has largely replaced UF in the cabinet and veneer trades. UF is known to make a stiffer glue line than PVA.
A little further up Grez, the maker of laminate guitars, mentions type of glue as a factor. Maybe he can elaborate.
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I think one reason the older laminate guitars sound better, or at least different, today is that wood hardens over time. It can be close to impossible to hammer a nail into a stud that has been in a house for many decades. Tonewoods harden with age also, and that should affect the tone, for better or worse. The tone of a guitar is affected by so many variables that I wouldn't even try to say what causes the difference in tone between an older guitar and a newer one, and especially not makes one sound better than another.
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I've experimented with Urea Formaldehyde type glues and they do seem to cure very hard. Take that as "will absorb less sound" and newer formulations have less harmful formaldehyde. But, it is also a heavy glue. It's used, I think, by some major manufacturers, but in 3 layer applications. I happen to build 5 layer plates so the extra glue lines seem to add up to a little too much total weight added for me. Also, I don't like having to wear a mask when mixing my glue. I inhale enough bad stuff as a luthier even with precautions. Originally Posted by ccroft
I like for plates, Tightbond type 1, thinned down 10%. Type 2 and 3 give you better water and heat resistance but don't seem to cure as hard. Thinning it down a little helps keep the glue line thin and when cured, it's half the weight of UF glue. Now, all this is because I like 5 layers. Why, well that's a different discussion but the super short version is that you can control where the stiffness is in a plate by how you orient the layers. Just like building bicycles, cars, airplanes, etc out of carbon fiber. You can make it stiff where you want and flexible were you want.
A big down side of any water based glue in this application is a very long cure time. The UF glue cures quickly and is ready to go, so good for a factory setting. Water based stuff takes at least a week to fully cure (get all the moisture out). I don't expect to go from pressing plates to a finished great sounding guitar in days, more like weeks or.....Last edited by Grez; 01-02-2018 at 07:32 AM.
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I've not played a mahogany body git, but my Ibanez AG-86 has a little bubinga laminate body and even with the much maligned ACH pickups it's the mellowest git I have next to my Tal.
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Thanks for sharing Barry. Lots of interesting stuff. Good ol' type 1 is our go-to. Easy, reliable and safe. (I manage a cabinet and millwork shop. From time to time we do a fair bit of curved ply form work with vacuum press). Guitars don't need to survive the submersion test anyway. Well... they shouldn't have to anyway. Originally Posted by Grez
Just noticed "Tightbone"... hehehe
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I don't know much about laminates other than the methods and materials just keep on changing.
How similar is glue from 20 years ago to glue from today? IDK Masonite has changed a lot too.
Painters used to use rabbit skin glue to size canvas, now PVA is a thing . . .
It will take 500 years to judge the superior.
But on the topic of maple vs mahogany, one thing that is clear to me is the wood choice for the neck.
To me nothing sings like a great one piece mahogany neck! I know it's slightly off topic, but I still wanted to mention it . . .
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Rabbit skin glue is still used to chip glass prior to gilding...... i was a signwriter for nearly 30 years.
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