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I've owned both the ES-175 and a carved 1970ish Epiphone HR. I have not played a Gibson HR. I'm wondering how the amplified sounds compare. It's been a long time.
The acoustic sounds are no comparison. The HR is louder and less bright.
Considering the pickup position, the difference in pickups, and as well as the sound board, what are the main amplified tonal differences, if any?
Why did the Gibson HR fail to catch on?
Thanks.
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12-20-2017 11:18 PM
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I have owned 8 ES-175's, played many others and have played both a Gibson and an Epiphone (made in Kalamazoo) Howard Roberts.
Originally Posted by Marty Grass
I think the Gibson has done better for several reasons:
1. Star power. Joe Pass, Jim Hall, Herb Ellis, Steve Howe and many others have played the 175. Other than Howard Roberts, the only player of note that played the Howard Roberts is Howard Alden who abandoned it quite early in his career to join the Benedetto family. Like it or not, most guitarists (me included) want to play the instrument of their heroes.
2. F holes. I think jazz guitarists are notoriously conservative when it comes to gear. Straight ahead jazzers want F-holes and Gypsy jazzers want oval holes, not the other way around (there are f hole Gypsy jazz guitars that get very little attention in the Gypsy jazz world compared to the oval hole Gypsy jazz guitars).
3. Feedback. My experience is that the f hole 175 with its built in humbuckers (particularly the 2 PUP version) is more feedback free that the oval holed HR with one floating PUP.
At the end of the day, there are only three iconic jazz guitars, the L-5, the Super 400 and the ES-175. Everything else is derivative. Including the Howard Roberts oval hole guitars.
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I have owned two different Gibson Howard Roberts, a 1977 blonde Artist model and a sunburst 1975 Custom model. The Gibson Howard Roberts has serious problems with oxidation of the pickguard. Many examples sold on line do not picture the guitar with a pickguard. The pickguard becomes brittle and crystallizes. My HR Custom's pickguard eventually split in half when I was holding the guitar gently against my torso and inadvertently put pressure on it. The hardware in the immediate vicinity will turn green and corrode. The screws on the pickguard will rust. If you have a Gibson HR, remove the pickguard to prevent further damage to your pickup cover and pickguard bracket. Do not put it in the case pocket. Contact Tony at The Pickguardian and he will make you a correct replacement.
Pickguardian | Quality Handmade Custom Pickguards
Incidentally, Tony suggested I store my old/damaged pickguard in the refrigerator, so I would still have all the original parts in the event I ever sold the guitar. I couldn't see myself explaining to my wife why I needed to keep obsolete guitar parts in the refrigerator so I threw it away.
I liked my HR's, the Artist was stolen and the Custom was a replacement. I liked the Custom better, it just was a better player. A forum member mentioned in another thread that they have different scale lengths (Artist vs. Custom).
Once I had a couple of Gibson ES-175's i sold the HR Custom with its new pickguard to a very appreciative buyer. He loves it. I liked it too and played my HR's for 34 years, but now I prefer ES-175's from the 1950's and early '60's.
Here is a picture of me from 20 years ago.
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Love the dark wood and patterned paper. That Newel post is an impressive feature too. I wish I could make that scheme in my house, but my other half won't embrace those dark colours.
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This quote is so interesting because it is so true and at the same time speaks to our stereotypes of what a "Jazz Guitar" is. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Though there have been many other guitars as worthy for jazz as the three mentioned icons, they will never be thought of in the same class.
I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. "At the end of the day" (borrowing from the poster's quote), if I could afford one of the "icons" I'd take it over anything else, no questions asked.
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Rotem Sivan and Gilda Hekselman make it sound beautiful.
Why did it not catch on? Probably human nature.
Played an Ibanez early 70s HowRd Roberts sounded fantastic through a twin. No feedback issues just a beautiful sounding guitar only reason I did not buy is the fret board was a bit narrow.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Although in his Vlog postings Rotem Sivan has covered over the hole in his...
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No idea what model this is, i.e. no expertise at all with this kind of guitar, but I do remember its peculiar looks from the time the album was actually released.
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My Epiphone HR Artist had feedback problems. In fact I put a sound board post in it, which was very easy and very reversible. Some of the feedback issues came from its carved spruce top.
I sold the HR when I had access to a 1920s L-5 with a McCarty pickup. The feedback was even worse.
The cost of the HRs was high because they never were produced in large numbers, unlike the 175s. The headstock veneer, soundboard and fretboard inlays, the tailpiece, and the neck were different and required extra time, usually by their more experienced workers. Also, the pickup on the Gibson HR was a limited run Bill Lawrence. Lastly, they used a three piece maple neck.
The result was a great guitar that was competitive with the 175 but cost more and looked funny. I recall it sounding better acoustically than the 175 with greater warmth and balance and with more volume. That may be a plus for practicing but is irrelevant for gigging.
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SS, I was sooo glad to hear you say this. Most people don't have the balls to admit it. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I am right there with you bro.
I've always wanted to play a Howard Roberts and never have. I am enjoying this thread MartyGrass.
Thanks, Joe D
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Yup, there's the hero worship aspect to it, no doubt about it.
And that having been said, it's almost impossible to make a case for a 175 back in the day ( early '60's ) . They were entry level ( meaning inexpensive ) - period, and the smart money - -the pros -were buying L-4's, or then L-5's or S 400's. ( sometimes new, most often used ). I wasn't to learn the 175 / L-4 differences 'til much later, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.
So, with JH playing a 175 - - mod'ed w/ ebony fb etc - -and JP also playing one, neither was on a lot of records that were available for hero-worshippers at that time. They weren't heroes back then, they were just good guitarists that we students learned were required listening. When they finally became legends their 175's were long since replaced. ( Funny how their tone stayed pretty much the same though.
)
So -- who appeared on album covers back then with their own model guitar ? For starters, we know WM ( post Riverside - Verve ) Johnny Smith w/ the GJS, ( w/ albums also readily available on Verve ), Barney Kessel w/ that 'ugly duckling' Gibson model, on that obscure Contemporary label ), and then here comes HR's albums on Capitol, who was cool and played like it. And he's got a different ( to us ) design that we kids didn't know was subject to feedback, but who cared - - it was cool.
Just my HO.......
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I believe that is a Sam Koontz guitar. Originally Posted by palindrome
No idea what model this is, i.e. no expertise at all with this kind of guitar, but I do remember its peculiar looks from the time the album was actually released.
Sam Koontz archtop collection
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I had a chance to buy a Gibson HR back in the early 80's but 1) I'd just gotten the 345 paid off; and 2) the $900 the guy wanted was just not on the board. I never got to see the instrument, which is just as well. I know I would have bought it, sight unseen, if I'd had the dough. Seeing it would have put me over the edge. I still want one. HR thought it was a great guitar - that's good enough for me!
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I do not have the skill to put into words what I hear or feel, let’s listen
man jazz is just so happening today
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That's the sound I remember!
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Rotem is putting down some nice stuff indeed!
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