The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I am planning to get a carved top, or fully carved acoustic archtop, the plan to play acoustically (not on gigs).

    I really wonder the sound. I am left handed so I have no chance to just walk on to a big store then try and compare models.

    Is the sound of those Loar models suitable for bebop when playing solo lines? Currently I have and Epi Joe Pass, and a D'Angelico EXL-1, they are cool on bebop, but both of them are laminated. I really would like to try a carved, and those Loars seems to be affordable. Well, Bendetto or even Eastman do not play now.

    Any opinion about bebop lines on 300, 600, 700?

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  3. #2

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    Disclaimer: I am very new to my Loar LH700, and have tried only once to play more modern jazz on it. I am no bebopper either (not yet).

    To my mind, buying an acoustic archtop like a Loar is for playing swing or at most early bop (say: Remo Palmieri playing Groovin’ High with Dizzy). You buy it so you can have that great acoustic sound for 4-to-bar (Freddie Green chods) and block-chord melody on the upper strings; then you put on a pickup so you can also access those lovely electric sounds for single-line soloing Charlie Christian style. For that application, it’s a great solution and quite possibly the best one (short of buying a true vintage carved top guitar).

    As I said, I tried it just once for playing more modern jazz, with faster runs and different chordal style (workshop: we played “Hot House” and later “Totem Pole”). I loved the sound (Raney, Kessel, Palmieri…) but I found it quite a bit harder than on my tele. The action and string size required to have a good acoustic tone get in the way. The V-shaped neck – which is fantastic for playing Freddie Green Chords – is not terribly comfortable for playing e.g. barre chords. And you have less upper-frets access than on a cutaway guitar.

    Another question I have is: acoustic bebop? In my utter ignorance, I haven’t yet heard of any bebop guitarist of the ‘40s-60s playing acoustic.

    In short: for those applications – heresy! – I think that a tele might serve you better. Or a P90s / Charlie Christian, set-PU, lam guitar (an ES-125 or ES-150 would do!!) Or at least, a jazzbox set up and strung up differently than you would a Loar for early jazz comping and soloing.

    Just my .2$ and likely you’ll have better advice further on…

  4. #3

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    I've been playing my Loar LH600na for about 10 years now both as an electric archtop (with an added KA 12pole floater) and acoustic.
    I think you can get a really satisfying 'bebob' sound with flatwound strings on the Loar. Allthough a lot of volume is lost when using flatwounds when playing acoustic, the sound is very pleasant. Right now I have bronze acoustic strings on my Loar and the guitar sounds very different. A lot louder and more of a percussive tone.

    I think the Loar lh600 (can't speak for the other models) is a very nice acoustic archtop which can be easily transformed to an electric archtop by adding a pickup (and scratchplate) and changing strings.

    Hope this helps
    Is The LOAR 300, 600 or 700 suitable for bebop solo lines?-loar-jpg

  5. #4

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    Unplugged bebop is a new one to me too...good luck in your quest!

  6. #5

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    Count me in on the "acoustic bop" sounding like an exercise in frustration, but the 600/700 with a pickup is a great choice.

    Try before you buy if you go 300 series. The ones I've come across were really bad, QC wise.

  7. #6

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    I’m not much of a bebop player so maybe not qualified to chime in in this one, but what the heck... I play a Loar 700 with a Kent Armstrong floater. While I think it gets a doable bebop sound both acoustically


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  8. #7

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    ... and amplified there are probably better choices. This guitar really excels at swing and jump IMHO.


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  9. #8

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    I don't play actual bebop, but I play lots of improvised single note lines on my bronze-strung acoustic archtops (with NO pickups). I am inspired by the early "plectrum" guitarists like Eddie Lang and Carl Kress, who mostly played acoustic L-5 guitars in the early 1930s, not to mention gypsy players like Django Reinhardt.

    Virtuosic acoustic archtop playing was an art form that ended before it had a chance to really blossom, thanks to amplification and Mr. Charlie Christian. But it is a wonderful sound and technique that may give you a new world to explore.

    Note that it's not anything like playing flatwounds on your typical PAF-equipped, smooth playing jazz box. It's an acoustic guitar, and should be viewed as such. To me, flatwounds on an acoustic archtop played acoustically is pointless. It's trying to make the guitar into something it's not. The fun of owning multiple archtops is about letting each one be itself. So I have flats with low-hanging, supple action on my L-5CES. But I have 80/20 bronze on my acoustic L-5s and L-12. No pickups, please.

    If that appeals to you, I'd say the journey can be very rewarding. If you think you'll want to turn an acoustic archtop into a smooth, sustaining, warm thing like the other guitars you are used to, then perhaps you should stick to your electrics for the single note playing.

  10. #9

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    Thanks for all your thoughts.

    One refinement to my original post, maybe it was misunderstandable: I am not intending to invent a new style called "acoustic bebop".

    Many times I play unplugged on my Epi Joe Pass, the style is bebop, or mostly post bebop, playing solos over standards, like Stella, All the Things you Are, etc (well, correctly trying to play solos). Planning to start learn chord melody, maybe a bit more modern like Joe Pass. Although the guitar is vintage historical style, when I say bebop I do not think the earliest bebop guitar pioneers, more like Mongromery, Joe Pass, or Pat Martino.

    ***

    So I am playing many times unplugged on my Epi Joe Pass. Just wondering is it a good idea to have the Loar for the cheapest price I can get a carved (based on Mr Beaumont, not the 300) , to improve the sound. (Also if it works, a floating pickup will be added)

    ***

    In acoustic use case flatwound does not play in my mind. There are flatwounds on my EXL-1, (TI) but on the Epi Joe Pass I use roundwound jazz (ironically D'Angelico 'Electrozinc', strings what are the coolest thing what could happen with the Epi)

  11. #10

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    Speaking of strings, I really like the acoustic sound of my Loar with D’Addario EXL nickel wound 12-54. I tried the bronze strings and found the tone of the nickel wound to be more to my liking. Longer life too!


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  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimraygilliam
    Speaking of strings, I really like the acoustic sound of my Loar with D’Addario EXL nickel wound 12-54. I tried the bronze strings and found the tone of the nickel wound to be more to my liking. Longer life too!


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    If you're going into the wayback machine, using something like nickel-wound strings is actually pretty authentic, when compared to something like Phosphor Bronze, at least.

    I really like the Martin Monels for roundwound "jazz" strings. And they sound good with a pickup, too.

  13. #12

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    My impression is that the Loar 300 line is not great. The 600 or 700 seem to be vastly superior. If you want to electrify it, you can get a DeArmond FHC, which balances well with Monel and certain acoustic strings. I've found that some 80/20s work fairly well with the DeArmond FHC. That is, they produce more uniform output when amplified, and I think it has to do with the thickness of the inner steel core. For example, "light tension" strings tend to have a thin core and a thicker wrap wire. GHS Vintage Bronze are higher tension and seem to have a thicker inner core. They balance fairly well. Philippe Bosset strings also balance very well, even though they are marketed as "soft brass". I don't find them to be particularly low tension.


    Oh and although this was never actually a topic, the idea of acoustic bebop is really cool. In fact, I think everything sounds better on an acoustic archtop. The problem is that (1) you'll have a hard time being heard in a band and (2) it's a hell of a lot harder.
    Last edited by omphalopsychos; 12-15-2017 at 01:35 PM.

  14. #13

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    I have never played a Loar, but I have played many vintage acoustic Gibsons in the L-3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, 50 range. Some are great, some could be with a little love and money, and some are just totally uninspiring and are likely to stay that way.

    I love a responsive acoustic archtop that is set up really well. Such a guitar is a rare and cherished thing. But crappy acoustic archtops are much more common, and they sound worse than nearly any other kind of guitar IMO. This is the general problem with acoustic archtops: They aren't that popular because the price of entry to obtain something of quality is fairly high. I'm sorry to say that, but I believe it is true relative to other types of guitar.

    If you can get your hands on an Eastman 600, 800, or 900 series guitar, you have a good chance of scoring a nice acoustic instrument for a relatively low cost (although not strictly a bargain).

  15. #14

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    You are going to have to really look to find a Loar that works well for you. There seems to be great variability.

    I think a defining quality of acoustic archtops is that they have clear single note balance that is great for solos, bebop or otherwise. By contrast, dreadnaughts have boomy lows and sparkly highs that leave room for singers, fiddles, mandolins, etc., to be heard.

    That said, you are fighting physics to make one strong and light enough for acoustic volume and a full sound. That is why I started building with Carbon Fiber. Cheaper carved top guitars generally can’t take the time or have the experienced worker to know how thin they can carve it. It is safer to leave them thick. Less warranty claims, but also a brighter and quieter top. So it is harder to find a good acoustic one from the cheap bin —but not impossible.

    Finally, I find the stainless steel flatwounds from Curt Mangan to sound great for a jazz acoustic hollow body guitar:

    http://www.curtmangan.com/electric-g...stainless-set/


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  16. #15

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    It's not so difficult to find a decent Loar LH650 or LH700, in my experience. I've owned 4 Loars each from their best guitars, all random selections bought used. The lower end of the line, 300 series etc, place a bad rap on the brands upper series, ime. I did return 1 of those 4 due to a bad neck angle. It befuddles me how those who've not owned Loar's repeat the internet dribble.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert
    I've been playing my Loar LH600na for about 10 years now both as an electric archtop (with an added KA 12pole floater) and acoustic.
    I think you can get a really satisfying 'bebob' sound with flatwound strings on the Loar. Allthough a lot of volume is lost when using flatwounds when playing acoustic, the sound is very pleasant. Right now I have bronze acoustic strings on my Loar and the guitar sounds very different. A lot louder and more of a percussive tone.

    I think the Loar lh600 (can't speak for the other models) is a very nice acoustic archtop which can be easily transformed to an electric archtop by adding a pickup (and scratchplate) and changing strings.

    Hope this helps
    Is The LOAR 300, 600 or 700 suitable for bebop solo lines?-loar-jpg
    I'm going with Geert above, about the flatwound strings. You loose some acoustic power but they sound super when plugged... and even unplugged, too, they sound very sweet to me, just not as powerful.

    I have both a LH-700 and an LH-309 (the one P90 version) and love them both. Yes, the QC is not as good on the 309, and I had to work a bit on the bridge as it didn't allow for a very low action at first.

    BUT I don't care about the less perfect finish of the 309. This guitar definitely has something. It speaks to me, I'd say maybe even more than the LH-700, which is a gorgeous guitar to look at

    After the required setup actions they play super easy (if you don't mind the V-shaped neck profile) and the sound, both unplugged/plugged is sweet. This is the word. Whenever I pick one of these guitars I end up playing for a looong session.

    As for bebop I don't see why they wouldn't do it. If you can play it they'll go after you for sure!

    I'd buy each one of these again without a blink.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    It befuddles me how those who've not owned Loar's repeat the internet dribble.
    Gosh 2bop, I hope you are not referring to my comment. It would be both presumptuous and insulting if that is what you meant.

    As it happens a very good friend of mine bought a 300 series without properly checking it out. We both worked hard to make it a playable guitar. Eventually, he returned it. The tone was harsh and nasally. There were gobs of mystery glue on the fingerboard extension. The QA was very cursory to say the least. I went with him to try to trade it in for a 600. We tried a couple at Mccabes in Santa Monica. They all lacked a good acoustic tone. In the end he gave up on Loar.

    Now, as I did this time, I suggest to people that they try first. I have seen good reports from people like you, so I never say that Loars are all crap. But I do suggest people try them so they don’t get a dud like my friend. It would be insulting and presumptuous of me to suggest that anyone who claimed to have a good experience with a Loar was just “repeating the Internet drivel”. I assume they have real experience that differs from mine.


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  19. #18

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    I bought a Loar 309 a few years ago. It was well built and had a pretty amazing sound, not just for the price. It was well finished. I had to sell it though because I just couldn't get used to the neck shape, too big for me. Seems like it was hit or miss back then with these and seeing them in person before buying was key.


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  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Thanks for all your thoughts.

    One refinement to my original post, maybe it was misunderstandable: I am not intending to invent a new style called "acoustic bebop".

    Many times I play unplugged on my Epi Joe Pass, the style is bebop, or mostly post bebop, playing solos over standards, like Stella, All the Things you Are, etc (well, correctly trying to play solos). Planning to start learn chord melody, maybe a bit more modern like Joe Pass. Although the guitar is vintage historical style, when I say bebop I do not think the earliest bebop guitar pioneers, more like Mongromery, Joe Pass, or Pat Martino.

    ***

    So I am playing many times unplugged on my Epi Joe Pass. Just wondering is it a good idea to have the Loar for the cheapest price I can get a carved (based on Mr Beaumont, not the 300) , to improve the sound. (Also if it works, a floating pickup will be added)

    ***

    In acoustic use case flatwound does not play in my mind. There are flatwounds on my EXL-1, (TI) but on the Epi Joe Pass I use roundwound jazz (ironically D'Angelico 'Electrozinc', strings what are the coolest thing what could happen with the Epi)
    Hi. I think that a Loar might be a good buy for you. Of course, ‘try before buy’ or a good return policy are good things. As for quality, my experience is limited to one guitar (and FWIW it’s a good experience), but the impression I get from discussion is that you can probably buy with confidence newer LH600 or LH700.

    I am extremely happy with the set-up you describe, and use it to play trad/swing. So if you see a Loar in the used market not too far from you, definitely check it out.

    The two questions I have in my mind are:
    a) Would the big, hard-V neck be to your liking for what you intend to do? There’s no substitute for trying it.
    b) Since volume does not seem to be a concern, could it be that even a decent, non-carved acoustic archtop might make it for you if you can’t find a Loar in your vicinity? Hofners (carved and more commonly laminated) could be more common on the European market… I tried a lovely 4550 and would have bought it (for cheap!) had it not had serious neck issues; I’ve also heard good things of the Guild Savoy A-150, which comes with a RI DeArmond Rhythm Chief.

    Happy quest!

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiofm74
    Hi. I think that a Loar might be a good buy for you. ...
    Thanks for the detailed thoughts.

    Unfortunately I am left handed so "try" is not an option for me. Also I do not think there is a big guitar store within 500 miles circle where I can pick the various 3-6 guitars - what are in my mind -, at the same time,
    and compare then, not even in Vienna. I thing I have to go as far as London.

    Also cutaway models - Guild Savoy, you mentioned - (except they are manufactured to left handed) not an option. I had to convert the LH 600 or 700 to lefty by replacing the nut and the bridge.

    Anyway, I think I will give a shoot. I do not think the V shape would be a problem for me.

    ***

    But the thoughts about loudness made me think. It's true I do not need more loud guitar. I am seeking for a more fine sound (well, I know the sound is in my hand, etc) but still I hope the Loar will be not only louder than my laminated guitars (which is not important for me, I mean loudness) but will give some extra in sound quality.