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1. The neck angle is incorrect. As you can see there is no room for adjustment on the tailpiece. It will not go up and down
2. The rear pickup is misaligned
3. The tailpiece touches the bridge
4. Finish blemishes.
5. Poor patchwork on the nut.
6. Careless steaming of the binding
7. The ebony is already cracking. The 1/4 jack will not fully accept a cable and will not stay plugged in.
I paid $1500. I paid the extra money to be made by Mr. Wu and was clear I expected close to perfect. 9/10 is ok, but this many mistakes makes this instrument a factory second to me. I will be unable to resell. Also, contracts aren’t worth the paper they are printed on for a foreigner in China.
Yunzi did not make copies of my design. Muso did, these are from two separate batches of instruments.
I 100% stand by my harsh criticism.
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12-26-2019 02:52 AM
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Thank you for the warm welcome.
Hope you can understand my frustration as this is a 5 year drama across 3 factories. I have no less than 10 guitars ordered from chinese factories, non of which was able to be resold without considerable adjustments due to poor craftsmanship.
I figured I would start with my most recent and costly order. I have saved wechat threads, emails, receipts, videos and documentation from the copyright office showing my label registered without my name on it.
Cant wait to share the train wreck if anyone is interested
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I've carefully read all the posts in this thread. As I noticed, there are three distinguishable different topic here, a) NGD of the OP, b) general discussion of Alibaba guitars, c) the mystery of what jfilipow is into...
a) Regarding the NGD of the OP, congrats, very nice looking guitar, and in case if you happy with it no one should ruin that. Apparently to having a custom and new instrument is important for you. For one who are OK to buy a used one, and do not want inidividual customization, and hava a budget of almost $2000 as you spent I would recomment buy a used (or new) Eastman. You will got a great instrument with nitro finish...
b) Regarding the Alibaba guitars. All agree here the QA is bad. Also all agree that all instantly visible things like electronics, frets, tuners, pickups, wires, even sanding the bridge to the top is poor. Still many posters want to believe that all other factors what are not instantly viewanle are very good... hmmm. I believe one's attitude to quality and his work is a general personality. It sounds very unlikely they are most time using and storing woods, glues, truss rods, etc according high quality standards, but using bad quality pots. Also it is sounds very unlikely they place emphasis on craftmanship on internal handwork, but do not care about fret leveling, (which would be no more than 1-2 hour extra work). Really think about it, why would a craftman carefully pick and handle the wood an all internal detals, then embarras himself with all other instantly viewable things? (I am sure one can explain this, but please then read about wishful thinking)
just for the record I have no Gibsons, just MICs, but no Alibaba, instead Eastman $(2000), Dangelico ($1000) and Epiphone Joe Pass what is great for the $500.
c) It is really not clear what jfilipow is into. Are you planning to make profit by remotely manufacturing your designed guitars? This sounds a very bad idea, all agree here that Alibaba custom guitars best case is appropriate for the owner and not for resale. Also, are you trying to protect your copyright against Alibaba supliers? Those supliers are not respecting copyright, did not you noticed this fact?
Also the pictures of the guitar seems to show a used guitar not a new one... You write about a repeting 5 year drama, typically a "oh, not again" scenario, maybe it is the time to make some concusions.
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Why didn't they use a shorter tailpiece? They keep them in stock.
Originally Posted by jfilipow
What does 'tailpiece doesn't go up or down' refer to? The bridge looks bottomed out in adjustment (if it needs to go lower take wood away around the thumbwheels). Is that what you're referring to?
Finish looks normal. Imperfect staining and dull spots in the nitro. Suggest Virtuoso polish for the nitro.
Workmanship around mando bout isn't great but in this price range isn't surprising.
Cant on the back pickup is not unusual. Since you have to swap all the pickups, switches, and pots anyway, you can address it with the new pickup frame.
Work around the nut looks crappy but looks like it's just in the binding.
I've seen better workmanship on these and you can't fix the binding issues.
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A 2 year old zombie thread let it die.
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Hello Gabor.. Originally Posted by Gabor
While your observation makes sense, that has not been the experience most of us have had. Yunzhi does certain things poorly (hardware, frets hit or miss, finish hit or miss, et al) but the bones of the guitars have always been good to very good including the carving, bracing, neck, and binding. You have to remember this is a factory and not an individual craftsman. I believe the wood working was good because they had experienced violin/cello makers doing the carving and bracing. While other areas (e.g. you would not believe how bad the soldering is) are not well executed. And there was certainly a lack of overall QA.
It's possible things have changed. I bought five of these back in the day. There were lots of small issues (all fixable) but only one had an odd, bad wood working flaw. And even that appears to have been done after the initial build. Still, it's been a long time since I bought a new one and I don't know where things stand today. Some of the binding pictures in this thread are nowhere near as good as what I received.
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Hey y’all!
I’m certainly overwhelmed by the responses here. 100% grateful to the comments and sympathy. Having a bit of trouble inside of China with the firewall and having to type from my phone, so please don’t be offended I have not replied to each individual comment.
In the future, I will plan to be a positive contributor to this forum. My frustrations are not unfounded and finding at least one person who seems to care will make me sleep better.
spook- my point exactly about the tailpiece. The rep wanted me to pay for an additional tailpiece. Completely unacceptable in my opinion. This is a mistake and I should not be responsible. I agree on the thumbwheel, and this will be the adjustment I will need to make once I return to my own shop. But, this is a careless mistake on the part of the factory. The angle is incorrect, end of story. They have made thousands of guitars, and the fact mine is a bit unique shouldn’t be an excuse.
The binding sucks. But I paid an additional cost to be build by the “master”. This is just poor craftsmanship and carelessness. I’m jealous of the clean binding below.
There is a certain amount of adjustment I think is reasonable, but my complaints are outside of this.
As for not letting a thread die, I added to this to give an update as to the current status. Anyone looking to do their own research may benefit from this.
Lora was not my rep. However, it does not matter who it was to me, as it was supposed to pass through Mr. Wu’s bench.
I dont feel it to it to be appropriate to dox any further, and anyone wondering who I worked with can message me directly.
Gabor- it was something I was considering. This project initially started with another factory as an endorsement deal. Since I live and worked in China, I thought I had a chance to get a good price on some decent instruments, carry back a half dozen or so a time on my vacations. I probably should cut my losses. However, I’ve been getting really used to driving a new model every year. At least I have some unique looking axes, even though the economics aren’t there for the business. Not a single guitar from any batch has turned a profit. I do have a few instruments in circulation, which according to Bob’s book of making an archtop isn’t a bad thing.
Big mike- hope my frustrations are a bit more clear. My initial post was certainly hackneyed, and once I had a reply I did my best to substantiate my claims. I did initially deal with Lora, but ultimately used a different agent as she was unclear at the time as to her association with the factory.
As a luthier myself, I wouldn’t consider this to be made by a “master”. I doubt I could have done better, but I’m a professional musician, not a professional guitar maker.
thanks again forum member for hearing me out, hope you all have a wonderful holiday.
Jo p.Last edited by jfilipow; 12-26-2019 at 09:02 PM.
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Not for nothing but you’re a victim to your own piss poor planning. You overestimated the value and appeal of your design. You failed to research fully on the nuts and bolts of buying from them.
Mr Wu and Miss Lora are great folks and coming here to besmirch thir reputations is a waste of time. They worked hard to give people here great guitars.
bye bye
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nice. there is no need to use always bold, it really does not make the content better, or most important, the effect is just the opposite
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I’m legally blind. Anyone who has been here any length of time knows this, knows I post in bold.
Originally Posted by Gabor
Last edited by BigMikeinNJ; 12-27-2019 at 04:55 PM.
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Hi Mike..
He said he didn't go through Ms Lora. And I'm not sure what having 'having Mr Wu take a look' is supposed to mean. Mr Wu has not been associated with Yunzhi for some years now. And this appears to be someone seeking to resale Yunzhi guitars. Probably do-able in larger numbers if you can insert yourself in the manufacturing process. Not so much on a small scale because you can't control quality and it isn't worth it once you start swapping electronics. Overall it's kind of a confusing situation.
You and I would not have Yunzhi build a one-off because we know better. And the result is predictable. Thing is.. I'm still disappointed in the binding pictures.
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Mike I really sorry for not knowing that. Your post was rude so I reacted to that. Then please take only the "nice" part of my original post Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
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The truth is building a guitar well takes a lot of skilled man hours. Likewise, most guitars made in the last fifty years have come out of a factory environment with industrial equipment. Some processes, like applying a high gloss finish, are simply done better by industrial machinery. Duplicating the gloss applied by a spray robot/UV cure light/buffing station by hand takes more time and skill than building the guitar in the first place.
Hand making a guitar is like hand making a Honda Civic. Either it is going to be colossally expensive or serious corners are cut. This is true even in China.
I’ve had many clients do business in China. The cost benefits are usually either because the factory you are dealing with is being subsidized by the government to gain market share (or even a monopoly) or it relies on unskilled indentured labor. Neither really apply to a one off or micro run of unique arch tops.
I have no personal experience with Wu, but I think the niche he seems to have carved out for himself is that he can teach the essential woodworking to a group of workers and consistently put out quality but inexpensive guitars that need another 500€ of highly skilled labor and precision parts to complete. A brilliant business model, actually. The final setup and electronics take a disproportionate amount of time, require the most skilled labor, and include the most expensive parts and consumables. Skipping it cuts your costs in half.
The low expectations from China also work to his favor. If Matt Cushman, or any other US or Euro luthier, put out guitars that were short 500€ of highly skilled labor and quality parts to become playable instruments he would never sell a second guitar —even if he sold it at a 500€ discount.
The bottom line is if you want what Wu can offer, a woodworking only version of an established design, he will deliver. Everyone who are OK with that premise seem quite happy with the results. If you want 2,000 Telecaster clones with counterfeit MLB team logos as a novelty gift item, there is a factory in China for that. Perhaps you need 5,000 unique tail pieces (as long as they don’t have to be precision milled) there is probably no better place to get them made.
If you are looking for a one off product requiring cutting edge high precision manufacturing or dozens of man hours of highly skilled labor, I have no doubt you can find that in China too. It just won’t be cheaper and probably harder to find than the same thing in Germany, Italy, or even the US. Looking for that is like going to an optometrist for braces because eyeglasses are so cheap compared to orthodontics.
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I for one, would not want to be the one who was charged with the task of fitting (and then scraping) the multi-layer binding on the decorative upper bout whirly twirly on this guitar. No thanks, I'll take a zero..
From a distance, the guitar looks really nice though. Sort of like a hollowbody Prince tribute guitar.
Joe D
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my comments were not rude but a factual estimate of what the guy thought he could pull off.
Anyone that reads the Wu or Yunzhi threads knows you get a well made Archtop, think of it as a husk, once in your hands you have your tech install high quality wiring and pickups, do a small amount of fret touch up. You come out pretty happy and have a great guitar at a decent price.
This man expected ordered a small batch of his complex one off design and expected it to be perfect when delivered - and to flip it at a profit in China. He didn’t research carefully. Stinging words yes, but accurate.
The only guys I knew doing this would have Yunzhi crank out 30 AR810s and AR880 clones, get a great price because they ordered a model already being made, in bulk. He’d get them, do a modicum of setup work and sell them for $600.00 on eBay and made a small profit. That’s a smart business model.
?Understand ???
Originally Posted by Gabor
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Which is why guitars made before the mid 90's suck. Oh wait.. they don't.
Production guitars coming out of the big Korean factories are surprisingly good. And they certainly appear to benefit for all the advantages of automation. However, a guitar made of solid woods that has been hand carved is a different sort of thing. They resonate and feel like wood. Not like poly finish and a pickup. While I would not do a one-off design from Yunzhi, for making music I would certainly rather have one of their standard models with all their foibles than something like a D'Angelico EXL-1 (which is actually a pretty good guitar). Assuming, of course, you're looking for something with more acoustic qualities. And while I'm at it...
- Chinese workers are not paid like workers in the west. And their government is oppressive. But they are not indentured.
- A nice thick poly finish benefits from automation. It's cheaper to apply and legal in US and Euro factories. Nitro is applied by hand pretty much everywhere though I'm not sure what Eastman does given their volume. For sound and looks, I'll take nitro any day.
- Intellectual property and trademark incursion has been a huge problem in China. I'm sure you have been applauding recent efforts the US is making to mitigate this and have been encouraging your EU to take action as well.
- If a custom maker offers me a $500 discount to install my own pickup and do my own set up, I'll certainly take him up on it. One, because I can and two, if I could not, that would be like $300 worth of work and I get to choose the pickup. Of course, the big names can't do that in case someone did a poor job of it which would make them look bad. But it's not the economics.
- I really doubt Yunzhi is getting much of a government subsidy. Their products are cheap because they have cheap labor, cheap rent, an old stock of wood, and few regulations. Oh.. and no QA.
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Not snark, but I honestly have no idea what you mean by that. Originally Posted by Spook410
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Smiles.. actually it was just an attempt at snarky humor on my part even though I did find your post to be intelligent and thoughtful. The point was that before the mid-90's (or so) there were a great many guitars being made by hand. Even factory models. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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I get it. I think what you are calling “by hand” is without CNC’s. Originally Posted by Spook410
I wasn’t talking about robots. I mean things like hydraulic presses, pin routers, and other industrial equipment. Most guitars from Gibson, Martin, etc., from the 1930’s onward are built with industrial machines.
When I said “by hand” I mean with hand planes, chisels, spike shaves, etc., like D’Angelico or even Bob Benedetto would have used. In any case, the point is factory guitars are what people know, expect, and usually more than good enough. Recreating that with hand tools and bench equipment is going to take a lot of skilled man hours —even in China. Expecting to get that for less than mass produced guitars made on industrial equipment is unreasonable.
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Hi folks,
Is this here the same Mr. Wu mentioned in this thread and others covering the custom ordered guitars from China:
Home — Dejawu Guitars
Even if not: this is how the game goes! You want a warrenty, quality control, qualitiy electronic components etc? No problem! You may get all of that. Next step: have a look at the price list. Surprised?
Dutchman have been good merchants throughout centuries.... (that´s why I try to avoid to make business with them: I will most likely loose...)
Not sure if this concepts will pay off: using highly skilled wood working to make these boring semihollow, electric guitar stuff. But you never know - tastes are different.
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?no, someone else.
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Big mike-
I don’t feel I have done anything wrong in posting my frustrations and experience. There seems to be some discrepancies between what I was told by the agent, whom I said was not Lora, and what was actually delivered. If Mr. Wu is no longer with the factory, I think that in and of itself is worth mentioning.
Just because my design does not appeal to you, does not mean lacks appeal. Even to the point of 1 to 1 copies being made here.
An F hole jazz guitar is nothing new, but when I started this project 5 years ago, mine was one of the first to market.
Thanks for your input.Last edited by jfilipow; 12-28-2019 at 06:14 AM.
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You seem to be comparing apples to oranges. From what I know from being on this forum is that Ms. Lora and Mr. Wu working through the Yolandateam business have been very honorable and people here have gotten very decent guitars from them. You are coming at this sideways with your dissatisfaction by not going through that interaction. Who knows how Mr. Wu’s name gets dropped, but direct to the source is Yolandateam. Originally Posted by jfilipow
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In the full guitar shot, the tailpiece doesn't look as close to the bridge as in the closeup. I can't really tell. But that binding work is pretty bad. The scroll would be tough to do, granted, but what about the mess at the nut? Looks like someone just learning.
Last edited by Woody Sound; 12-30-2019 at 04:42 PM.
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Mr Wu was the main builder when Eastan first went to NAMM
I own one of those NAMM guitars. Later he went to Yunzhi when the original Eastman partners split up, and I have an AR880 copy, Ms Lora was my contact.
‘they wanted more money so went freelance - Wu/Yolanda Team
i own a number of those also. They never ever disappointed me.
my buddy JohnnyLatch who used to buy in bulk from Yunzhi eventually cut them loose because the quality got sloppy, hopefully they pulled it together.
as I said if you buy a preexisting design you’ll get a decent guitar. If you order an exotic one off then you’re entering deeper water. Many times it’s the persistence and repeated questions an experienced and dedicted order riter asks that’s the difference.
Ms Lora is a fanatic to detail, that’s why customers get what they ask for.
happy new year to you all
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