-
Despite owning several other L-5s of different flavors, I had never owned or even played a WesMo. That model has haunted me for literally years - could it be the perfect guitar for me? I can't really explain why I bought other models instead, other than that I desired them too.
Nowadays, spending upwards of $5K on a guitar requires an in-hand experience. It didn't use to. But there will be no more taking chances with online purchases at that cost tier for me. I'm far too particular as a player and then I end up living with, or dealing with at extra expense, a guitar's idiosyncrasies. I had to return two guitars recently and it's just a pain.
I already own a '99 L-5CES that is really nice, but it has Lollar Imperials (slightly bright/clean for me) and is heavy, around 8 lbs. These things irk me. While I could replace the pickups with '57 Classics or Duncan Seth Lovers - and maybe I will - the weight remains a factor. It makes my shoulder sore with a big guitar like the L-5.
So yesterday I finally got to play an older model Wes L-5 at a shop. Sunburst, nice flame, quite a few dings and dents, definitely not pristine. It felt a lot lighter than my CES, close to 7 lbs maybe. Despite what I've read, I would describe the electric tone as darker than my guitar (could it be '57 Classic vs. Lollar?). The acoustic tone was very nice, full and not bright or shrill at all.
The neck was a little slimmer too, thick from front to back like my post-war acoustic L-5, but with minimal shoulders. The '99 CES has perceptible shoulders which make the neck feel hefty. Of course the setup wasn't great. I dialed the bridge and pickup way down. The nut was okay but if I owned it, I'd lower the slots. I'm assuming it's original Gibson work, but I'm unsure. Looked like a refret too. The guitar was clearly played a lot.
I did not buy it. Firstly, because I want to make careful decisions, but mostly because it had an annoying playability issue. The strings were heavier than I use - maybe 13s vs. 12s - and there was a bit too much relief in the neck. Yet in spite of that, the G string (only G) buzzed at a few frets in the middle of the neck, a sitar type of sound. This means if we dialed out the relief and/or reduced the string gauge, it would just get worse. The shop tech inspected it and thinks the saddle radius flattened out in the middle of the saddle, or possibly there is a sympathetic vibration. I said "let me know if you get it sorted out."
So now I am obsessed with finding a lightweight L-5 WesMo that I can either go play in person, or buy with a return policy. Or... not.
-
12-05-2017 11:14 AM
-
Roger,
The "Wes" is a very nice guitar, indeed. You hit the nail on the head. You want to get an in-hand evaluation. Some of them are brighter and some of them are darker. All of them are very well put together.
I like the sunburst ones, myself. I think they are very pretty. But, like you, I already have the blonde 17" archtop thing covered.
If you have return privileges I think you will be fine with getting a Wes shipped to you.
Have fun shopping. As _you_ know already, L-5 CES guitars are to be treasured. (AND played)
-
Roger, In 2003, I scored a wine red L-5 WESMO for just over 3K. I figured that I would use it to trade up to a color I liked better (I like all three other colors better) or maybe a two PUP model (not a serious concern as I almost never use a bridge PUP). It is such a fine guitar that I have never traded up. It came to me with an Ebony saddle (the original TOM is in the case pocket). Since purchasing it, I bought a Super 400 CES (Sunburst). The Super 400 is way heavier (8 pounds 14 ounces vs. 7 pounds 9 ounces for the WESMO). And the WESMO has a better acoustic voice. I would say that they are equally warm in tone. But be forewarned, that extra lightness and acoustic voice comes at a price. The WESMO is not as useful on real world gigs (most of mine are at noisy restaurants, bars and corporate functions). It feeds back on the bass notes WAY earlier than the Super 400 does.
-
Thanks for the comments. I think a 7 lb. electric archtop is about perfect, hard to find in a modern 17" instrument with a built-in pickup and electronics though.
Also worth noting is that I absolutely love Lee Ritenour's live tone on his signature model. It's smaller and has a floater, and these things scare me away despite what my ears tell me, plus it's always more expensive. Archtop.com has one at this writing but buying cross-country from him is a challenge and he charges top dollar for everything, including shipping.
I have an L-5C but I cannot get it to sound like Lee's guitar. Tried a JS and an original DeArmond 1100 on there. Lee gets the perfect pop/chime/compression out of his rig. The pickup is so important! As are strings... but there's more to it. Maybe I need to change the ebony saddle to a TOM.
Oh, but now I'm rambling. If they sort out this WesMo at the shop near me, I'll go back and bring my CES for comparison.
-
Nice post. I just played two today. Were brande new boths ones.
I didnt find it warmer sounding amplified than the two pickups version and it did feedback too much. It is a less compressed sound and has more dynamic range, but to me is useless because it feedbacks at very low volumes. And some notes resonates far more than others.
It far lighter, thats true. And it has a more acoustic voice but not enough to put a condenser to play live acoustic.
I didnt like it.
I was dissapointed too.
-
interestingly all the Wesmo's I've played were way brighter than I like.
but then again my ears are used to twin pickup vintage L-5's, so not a fair comparison.
-
I have and L5CES and an L5WES ....
love them both
-
I too like Lee Ritenour's tone however, to my ears (and eyes from live performances) it is a very "processed" sound not "organic" like Wes, jmo.
Keep us posted on your search, I'm enjoying the decision making process.
-
Too bright? Maybe the problem was a lack of cigarette and thumb callus...
;-)
-
There is a specific type of response that Lee gets from his L-5; it's one that a lot of Gibson guitars provide - a compressed snap with a chimey ring when one digs in with single notes (or pulls up and "pops" a string with two fingers). Some pickups simply don't allow that, and heavy strings make it difficult. Some fret slap is required to produce the percussive attack of this phenomenon. Therefore setup is also a key factor. Carlton gets it on his 335 also.
I pretty much thought you needed a low impedance PAF style humbucker with Alnico II, III, or V to get there. Yeah, we're down to the brass tacks of esoterica at this point. But Ritenour gets there with his floater, which I think is an adjustable BJB, not available on other guitars.
I just love that sound and it matches my technique. Wes Montgomery himself had such an idiosyncratic technique that his tone stands alone. A great and uniquely identifiable sound, but not one I strive for.
-
Originally Posted by wintermoon
I only played one WesMo, bought it and swapped the too bright TOM for an ebony bridge. Glad I did !
-
Pretty sure I just read that the Rit guitar has a johnny smith pickup. He was insistent.
Originally Posted by rpguitar
-
IIRC, in an article in GP it was stated that at that time (MANY years ago) that LR used a Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer as part of his signal chain. Perhaps he has moved on to something more advanced, or has input on recording decisions? Just a thought. Note: I've been obliged to cut myself off from guitar mags of late, as the ensuing GAS is too painful, And expensive. So my info is wildly out of date. Originally Posted by rpguitar
-
I recall the same LR Orange Squeezer article. Wow C74 you must be sooooo oooold.
Hard to believe an Orange Squeezer would let a chime (as rpguitar describes it) ring through, but maybe.
I have an Orange Squeezer that I built into the box of an original DA Blue Clipper, so I will experiment with chime this evening.
Not that i have any chance at all to produce an LR sound even for a few notes.
-
It's not the years (although they are not inconsequential) it's the mileage.
-
Interesting, My Wes is very dark. It's also heavy. I kind of wonder if that has something to do with it?
-
yeah ck74!...dan armstrong (kents dad) orange squeezer was one of first guitar dedicated compressors built..if not the first!...plugged into the guitar..and the cable ran from that...great unit...all the early 70's session guys used it...cooder, tedesco, skunk baxter (on all that steely dan and doobie brothers stuff).even bass players
boutique makers are still making variations based on it...
i always preferred it to the ross based compressor architecture that most subsequent compressor pedals rely/relied on...
altho there have been many variations on it since, the best da orange squeezer was with the 4558 op amp... the same op amp that was later used in the famous ibanez tube screamer
btw, blue clipper was armstrongs fuzz..which the early mxr pedal was based on!!...
dan armstrong was early guitar gizmo genius...many great nyc techs/guitarpeople came out of his shop...carl thompson, matt umanov, kent a etc...and of course dans guru was the great bill lawrence!!
cheers
from a longtime dan armstrong plexi guitar/orange squeezer owner!! hah
-
Originally Posted by citizenk74
some of those old toyotas still get great mileage!!! haha
judge by the ear, not by the year!!!
hah
cheers
-
Years ago I was in Rochester NY on business and I stopped by 'House of Guitars". They had a Wes & an L5CES which I got to compare side by side. To my surprise, I preferred the sound of the L5CES. I might still buy a Wes instead if I were looking.
-
rpguitar,
I recently purchased a new Crimson Wes that is just over 7 lbs and the guitar is fantastic. I’ve played several of these Crimson models in the past few years and they vary in weight , tone , resonance and acoustic voice. I’m very , very particular
with my guitar buys - so it has to be special.
Like you , I also have years of experience with vintage Gibson’s and the evolutionary weight increase with their Archtops.
I play mainly chord melody in my home (non gigging) so feedback not an issue at all for me.
When I came across this particular guitar - it checked off all the boxes and captured my attention quickly. The playability was perfect and the tone and responsiveness is superior. I would describe it as falling somewhere between a GJS and Legrand - just the right balance of bass and treble - and with a beautiful ringing sustain. I just love the parallel bracing and the fit and finish is impeccable ...and neck laser straight.
Knowing what I’ve seen you play , and your knowledge base - I would recommend you continue to pursue a lighter weight Crimson Wes - I think you will be quite surprised with Crimson offerings. There are many gems out there - just be patient.
Besides , it the search that’s fun.Last edited by QAman; 12-05-2017 at 10:00 PM.
-
Lee Ritenour uses some chorus with his archtops.
-
RP, are those pickups in your '99 CES hampering the performance of your guitar? Every CES I've owned had a darker tonality than the WesMo, which for me was a disappointment.
-
"Lightweight L-5WES" - bwahahahahahahahaha.
Just buy Steve's....
-
I'd say the Lollars are not necessarily bright, but they are clear. It kind of manifests as bright, having less of a juicy midrange, that sort of thing. I actually have them adjusted rather nicely, but I have a mental bias that they are not as authentic as they could be. I've got unpotted humbuckers on a couple of guitars, and they seem to be very responsive and let the wood sing a bit more.
Most likely if anyone heard my L-5CES with the Lollars right now, they'd probably tell me it sounds fine, so just shut up play it.
-
You know, now that I think about it...The L5 WesMo that I owned had the pickup swapped out with a Lollar! I still have the original '57 classic that the guitar came with if you've any use for it - no charge. That L5 Wes was sold as is. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I'd say the Lollars are not necessarily bright, but they are clear. It kind of manifests as bright, having less of a juicy midrange, that sort of thing. I actually have them adjusted rather nicely, but I have a mental bias that they are not as authentic as they could be. I've got unpotted humbuckers on a couple of guitars, and they seem to be very responsive and let the wood sing a bit more.
Most likely if anyone heard my L-5CES with the Lollars right now, they'd probably tell me it sounds fine, so just shut up play it.
Reply With Quote
Playing live and getting the best sound from the...
Today, 02:08 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos