Epiphone ES-175 Premium vs. Ibanez Artcore Expressionist AFJ95

[wmachine]

A couple years ago with rather high expectations, I bought an Epiphone ES-175 Premium at a great price to scratch my itch for a jazz box. I was, and still am, very impressed with it. It sounds great unplugged and plugged in with the Gibson '57 and '57 plus pups.

I just bought an Ibanez Artcore Expressionist AFJ95 from GC on closeout at $299 +tax. I had decent expectations based on what I've read, and expected from Ibanez. I knew it would be a dealer "floor model" because that is what "closeout" means to GC. And that was not an issue because it was shipped well packaged and arrived unscathed. It was in flawless condition. I looked it over very carefully and was quite pleased with the way it looked. The finish was quite flat and did take away from the otherwise nice look it has.
But that was as far as it went. It did not play as easily as it appears it should (I'm still a little puzzled by that), but the show-stopper was the sound. Both unplugged and plugged in. With the sound of the EPI in the back of my mind, this sounded dead and lifeless. Muffled, even? Has to be better plugged in, so..........No. Just didn't sound that good no matter where the knobs were.
Okay, the mind can play tricks (especially mine) so I waited a couple days until I could do a side-by-side with the EPI to get a fair comparison. The actual side-by-side was worse, if anything. Though neck sizes were about the same, the EPI plays much better. And the EPI sang, by comparison. I really wanted to like the Ibanez. But I know 'd never play it again if I kept it, so back it goes.
IDK, maybe I got an exceptionally good EPI and an exceptionally bad Ibanez together.

[2bornot2bop]

The premium sounds better than far more expensive archtops. Blow that Ibanez out on craigslist

[lawson-stone]

The Epiphone ES175 Premium is stiffly competitive even with "real" ES175's themselves. I have posted a "blind" shoot-out online with the Gibson & Epiphone and there was no tendency for people to spot the Epiphone based on sound alone. Of course, the experience of seeing it, playing it, etc. can be different, but the Epiphone is a pleasure to play and does hold its own in the sound department. For some, the "fast" Epiphone neck would be draw, others have trouble with that slim neck. But the Epiphone is definitively an outstanding instrument. Well made, well playing, fine sounding. I'd be surprised if the Ibanez really surpassed it. Perhaps a different guitar would be preferable to some tastes, but not really superior.

[BeBob]

I would trust your ears. If they're telling you that the Ibanez is not right then the Ibanez is not right.

I've tried a number of the Ibanez guitars in the GC showroom and I've never been impressed by them. The acoustic tone always left way too much to be desired (dead), so I never ended up plugging them in. To be fair I never went any higher up the model line than the AF155-AWB Artstar. It was an incredibly good looking guitar but to me it's beauty was only skin deep.

I also tried an Epi ES-175 Premium that was a floor model, being blown out a terrific price, right along side of a similarly priced used Joe Pass Emperor. I went back several times, trying to give both of those Epis a chance to grow on me, but they just never did it. Maybe it's because I never plugged them in, but if I don't like the way a guitar sounds unplugged then I don't bother plugging it into an amp. I'm sure that a lot of it was taht I'm a thick neck kind of guy and I find it hard to fall in love with thin neck guitars. Still, that 175 sat around my local GC for longer than I would have expected based on the praise that it gets around here.

After hearing so many people give high praise to the 175 Premium I'm beginning to think that maybe I made a mistake by not plugging it in. Maybe plugging it in would have made all the difference to me, as I do like the sound of 57 Classic pickups. My problem was that I just couldn't fall in love with the guitar without plugging it in, and to me that has to come first.

[lawson-stone]

I would trust your ears. If they're telling you that the Ibanez is not right then the Ibanez is not right.

I've tried a number of the Ibanez guitars in the GC showroom and I've never been impressed by them. The acoustic tone always left way too much to be desired (dead), so I never ended up plugging them in. To be fair I never went any higher up the model line than the AF155-AWB Artstar. It was an incredibly good looking guitar but to me it's beauty was only skin deep.

I also tried an Epi ES-175 Premium that was a floor model, being blown out a terrific price, right along side of a similarly priced used Joe Pass Emperor. I went back several times, trying to give both of those Epis a chance to grow on me, but they just never did it. Maybe it's because I never plugged them in, but if I don't like the way a guitar sounds unplugged then I don't bother plugging it into an amp. I'm sure that a lot of it was taht I'm a thick neck kind of guy and I find it hard to fall in love with thin neck guitars. Still, that 175 sat around my local GC for longer than I would have expected based on the praise that it gets around here.

After hearing so many people give high praise to the 175 Premium I'm beginning to think that maybe I made a mistake by not plugging it in. Maybe plugging it in would have made all the difference to me, as I do like the sound of 57 Classic pickups. My problem was that I just couldn't fall in love with the guitar without plugging it in, and to me that has to come first.

There is a thin line between a useful rule of thumb on the one hand, and a kind of mental block on the other. I don't care much for the acoustic sound of an archtop with routed/set pickups. I just need it to be loud enough to practice. The amplified sound is the key for me on those guitars, and actually, on floaters too since I will always perform amplified and typically practice 75% of the time with an amp.

I think you missed a nice guitar; though the skinny neck issue is different and goes to playability. If you don't like a skinny neck, you might not like the Epiphone ES175.

[JPG]

IDK, maybe I got an exceptionally good EPI and an exceptionally bad Ibanez together.

I have both guitars - plus a Gibson ES-175.
My experience is just like yours, about the Ibanez. It's a seriously well finished guitar and with a good setup it plays like butter, but sounds a bit dull yes, specially unplugged. It lacks the character. Mind you, it's a great guitar in anyone's hands specially if you swap in another pickup (I did).. but it does not speak to me.

The Epiphone, on the other hand, it's gorgeous. Compared to my Gibson is a different guitar, but sometimes I get to feel it is just as great - as long as I don't want them to do the same thing. I have different strings in both, and the Gibson reacts a lot better to rounds while the Epi sings with flats - again, I'm talking just about my guitars and my experience with them. If I put flats on both, the Epi wins.. with rounds the Gibson as a serious depth and richness.

I believe that someone in this forum stripped all the poly finish on a Ibanez AFJ95 (or on the one pickup version). I'd be very curious to know how the guitar reacted to it, if it started to breathe. My guess is that the poly finish on the Ibanez really affects them a lot.

[BeBob]

...The amplified sound is the key for me on those guitars, and actually, on floaters too since I will always perform amplified and typically practice 75% of the time with an amp.

I think you missed a nice guitar; though the skinny neck issue is different and goes to playability. If you don't like a skinny neck, you might not like the Epiphone ES175.

Skinny necks are an automatic disqualifier for me. They give me hand cramps. I tried to love the Epi 175. It didn't happen.

WRT amplified vs acoustic, I don't play out much anymore , I spend more of my time on the couch. To me getting plugged and worrying about that plug/jack on the lower bout is a PITA so much of the time I'm playing unplugged. If a guitar doesn't sound useful acoustically then it's not that useful to me. When I do plug in, I blend in some electric tone at a low volume that won't squelch the acoustic tone. To me acoustic tone is very important and if a guitar doesn't have it, it doesn't have it. I don't think of it so much as a mental block as much as I don't like guitars that don't sound good acoustically. The problem is that the guitars that sound best acoustically tend to have carved tops and cost arms and legs so I'm forced into compromise.

[lawson-stone]

I hear that and can understand your point. I don’t play out much but I just love that electric arch top sound so much I almost always play plugged in. I keep little amps around my house so it’s easier to do that. But your point is totally valid too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sgosnell]

If you want a carved top at a reasonable price, look at Eastman. They produce fine archtops with carved spruce or maple tops, and can be found used for very reasonable money. My little T145, 15" bout, thinline, is louder than my flat-top acoustics. Not the same timbre and tone, but it's loud, and sounds good amplified. It's no longer offered, but can sometimes be found used. I'm probably going to sell mine, because I play my Benedetto most of the time, and the Eastman is back in the closet. I think it's hard to beat an Eastman for couch playing.

[wmachine]

To me acoustic tone is very important and if a guitar doesn't have it, it doesn't have it. I don't think of it so much as a mental block as much as I don't like guitars that don't sound good acoustically. The problem is that the guitars that sound best acoustically tend to have carved tops and cost arms and legs so I'm forced into compromise.

I hear that and can understand your point. I don’t play out much but I just love that electric arch top sound so much I almost always play plugged in. I keep little amps around my house so it’s easier to do that. But your point is totally valid too.

To me, it is still an electric guitar and nothing will make up for it not sounding at its best plugged in.
That said, I also believe there is something quite important about how it does sound unplugged. (And that it does translate to better sound plugged in)
I am becoming more aware of how all my (other) electrics sound unplugged. It is becoming apparent to me that the best sounding ones plugged in have a decent sound and resonance to them unplugged too. Sure the pups make a huge difference, but I think the guitars "natural sound" comes into play too.

[BeBob]

To me, it is still an electric guitar and nothing will make up for it not sounding at its best plugged in.

Maybe I'm posting out of context, as this is a thread about laminated guitars, but I think that this long-winded post will be useful even in the context of laminated guitars.

I may have an uncommonly shared opinion, being a guy who thinks that unplugged tone is more important than anything else. I'm not inclined to agree that an archtop guitar has to sound at its best while plugged-in -- I think that's an approach that can lead one to miss some of the subtleties in a guitar's character -- even with an electric archtop guitar or an electric solidbody.

Archtop guitars originated as acoustic guitars, not as electrics. The finest archtop guitars are typically carved acoustic instruments that are not amplified, or if they are amplified, they are amplified with floating pickups so that the resonance of the soundboard is not damped by hanging weights on it. When a heavy pickup, like a PAF-type humbucker, gets placed into the soundboard (or heaven forbid, TWO of them) it has a dramatic effect to diminish the top's vibration and the acoustic tone of the guitar, transforming it into more of an electric instrument than an acoustic instrument.

Laminated guitars and carved guitars that are intended to have top-mounted pickups are different animals and for them I think you're right on target -- they sound at their best plugged in because their acoustic tonality has been diminished (I'd like to say destroyed but that has an offensive sound to it) by hanging weights on the vibrating top which damp it's vibration. Those guitars need to be plugged in to sound their best. So if you're interested in a guitar with pickups embedded in the soundboard, then plugging them in is mandatory to assess the guitar's tone. In that context you rely heavily on the pickups for your guitar's tone and you're never going to assess the tone of the pickups without plugging in.

As it turns out I don't own any guitars like that. All of my archtops have floating pickups and controls that are not mounted on the soundboard. Their tonal properties are different. They are acoustic guitars first and electric guitars second. That's why I'm able to get away with playing them unplugged most of the time. I probably couldn't do that if they had pups embedded in the soundboard. That's probably also why I couldn't fall in love with the Epi 175. Scale length, neck thickness and vibrating tops tend to shape my preferences. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

I am becoming more aware of how all my (other) electrics sound unplugged. It is becoming apparent to me that the best sounding ones plugged in have a decent sound and resonance to them unplugged too. Sure the pups make a huge difference, but I think the guitars "natural sound" comes into play too.

There's a lot of truth in that statement, and that subtlety that you're talking about is the basis for my post.

Unplugged tone even matters with solidbody electrics. As an anecdote: When I was shopping for an LP I went to one of the largest dealers in the 'States on the day that he received his annual custom shop allocation. I went through all of his 'bursts and found the one that was the most resonant, the most live feeling while unplugged, and took that one home. While there are a lot of people who like to pick their bursts based on cosmetics, I think that's a mistake. Tone and playability need to come first and everything else comes in a distant second. I've been following the unplugged tone rule for a long time and I think it's helped me choose better guitars.

With all that said, I'm inclined to think that acoustic/unplugged tone is still a valuable assessment point when evaluating a laminated guitar with pickups hung on the soundboard. While the electric tone is important, much of that can be fine tuned with tone control mods, pickup swapping and amp/speaker tweaks. But what remains beneath that, as the foundation, as the guitar's essence, is the vibrational quality of the guitar itself, which you can't change, short of switching guitars. That's why my selection formula involves unplugged tone as a screening step, and only moving to plugged in tone after a guitar passes the unplugged test. YMMV.

[wmachine]

Thanks for the insightful post, Bob. Makes a lot of sense.

[hans halmackenreuter]

I have both guitars - plus a Gibson ES-175.

I believe that someone in this forum stripped all the poly finish on a Ibanez AFJ95 (or on the one pickup version). I'd be very curious to know how the guitar reacted to it, if it started to breathe. My guess is that the poly finish on the Ibanez really affects them a lot.

That's me! We're talking about my Ibanez Afj 81. Well it sounds a little bit better at least a tad louder. But it has a roosewood bridge and I play 0.13 gauge pure nickels.

[JPG]

That's me! We're talking about my Ibanez Afj 81. Well it sounds a little bit better at least a tad louder. But it has a roosewood bridge and I play 0.13 gauge pure nickels.

Hey, Hans, thank you!
She looks really nice now - and you have a one of a kind

I must add: on my AFJ95 I swapped the neck pickup for a Bare Knuckle "Manhattan". When plugged, this is now, hands down, my best sounding guitar.

Still, we as players (I think) want the whole package and mojo is important... the AFJ95 sounds amazing now, but I still can't hear her speaking to me ..

[hans halmackenreuter]

Hey, Hans, thank you!
She looks really nice now - and you have a one of a kind

I must add: on my AFJ95 I swapped the neck pickup for a Bare Knuckle "Manhattan". When plugged, this is now, hands down, my best sounding guitar.

Still, we as players (I think) want the whole package and mojo is important... the AFJ95 sounds amazing now, but I still can't hear her speaking to me ..

Thank you!
I have a Bare Knuckle "Manhattan" too. What a great PU!

[hans halmackenreuter]

My Mojo comes from my 5E3 Clone!