The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    It might be in my head but a week after I got the guitar I took the pickguard off. I repeat, it might be psychological, but I found the guitar opened up noticeably when I did it. I would like to put a Benedetto finger rest on mine but at 50$ CAN it isnt worth it.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Although I have read that Joe Pass played his ES-175 (another lam-top) acoustically into a microphone for recording some of the songs on the Virtuoso series.
    A recent BBC radio program about Joe Pass made by the guitarist John Etheridge stated that Joe apparently hated the sound on the first Virtuoso album - it was all down to the engineer/producer and not what he would have preferred at all! Although it was also stated that the rather dry sound did give a certain "honesty" to the recording, and you can certainly hear what he plays very clearly.

  4. #53

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    Some people make a distinction of the materials used in non-solid guitars. I notice that there is a tendancy to avoid using pejorative words like plywood". Althought plywood is exactly what's being used to construct almost all Asian guitars, the preferred description, cleared by marketing, seems to be "laminate".

    There's nothing wrong with a guitar, like an ES-175, that is designed for a specific purpose, a specific sound, and the materials used to construct the guitar support the purpose - the mission, if you will - of the instrument. Experience suggests that, despite the protestations of others, there is a distinct difference in the wood quality, solid or plywood, used in the construction of a "cheap" guitar and a high quality model.

    I have heard literally thousands of descriptions posted on the internet suggesting that the cheap, Asian instruments are every bit as good - and even better - than guitars who are made by companies that learned their craft before the manufacturing giant that is now Asia possessed running water, electricity and the internal combustion engine. An example is one that I read while considering ordering an Emperor Regent:

    "Not only is this a fine electric guitar, I took it over to my buddie's house and jammed, him with his 1938 L-5 and me with my Emperor Regent. My Epi blew the doors off his Gibson."

    Gullibly, I listened to all the praise, (in retrospect, seemingly manufactured by pimps of Samick, or the like) and six or seven years ago, I ordered the Emperor Regent.

    I had trouble with it from the beginning not staying in tune and not holding action settings. Although I live in an area with virtually constant temperature and humidity, I tinkered with the Epi constantly for the first month that I owned it, trying different string combinations and setups to find the right feel and sound of the guitar.

    Eventually, I decided to cut my losses and hung the thing up on a wall. I decided maybe to give it away to a deserving someone rather than sell the problems to another. I either got the only "bad" Korean made Emp/Reg or maybe I substantiated a wide-spread belief that the quality really is inferior to U.S. instruments ... I didn't buy into that at first, because the exterior of the guitar was as beautiful as any that I own, even my L-5.

    BUT, after going through the excercise of allowing the "green" wood of the Epi to age/stabilize for almost seven years and inserting the 1964 Gibson P-90 pickup, re-stringing with quality strings and setting up the guitar to the best of my ability, I'm still disappointed with the sound. As I mentioned above, I had set my expectations on the sound of the lowest-priced Gibson guitar, the ES-125. Unhappily, the Epi sounded little like any of my other guitars so it's going back on the wall.

    There is no intent to suggest that others have the same guitar as mine, out of every 1,000 thirteen year-olds raving about the "jazz sound" of their Epiphone (without knowing any better) there MUST be some genuine players of taste and experience who are seriously, honestly describing the reasons why they are satistifed with this low-cost guitar.

    One man's experience only ... but I'm done with Asian guitars

    cheers

  5. #54

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    here is my take on it: I have a Line6 pod. It has a "tweed champ" sound, a "tweed deluxe" sound and a "blackface twin" sound (I am oversimplifying of course). Does the Deluxe sound like a deluxe? Yes. Does it sound like the best Deluxe? Not at all. BUT it is a reasonable approximation.

    Same thing for the EmpReg. Does is sound like a 17in archtop? Yes. Does sound as good as an L5? No. Does it sound close to an L5? Well.. it sounds more like an L5 than a telecaster. Does it cost as much as an L5? No. You get what you paid for.

    I bought my Epi for a hair under 600$. I put an ebony bridge on it (25$). I am putting a Lollar Custom P90 as well but since I dont have to cut the top I can remove it and put it elsewhere.

    I have tried the Joe Pass, The Kingpin, Washburn J6, a 70s Guild X1(55?), several new Herb Ellis' and 175s and for the tone it is the winner.If they were easy to try I would also have considered a Peerless monarch but you only get it online in Canada. (EDIT: I Also tried a couple of Eastmans which blow the Epi out of the water but well beyond my means).

    When I get good enough (rich enough) I would probably buy a Cambellone.

    Is it as good as a Gibson. I wish. Are new Gibsons as good as a Gibson? That is another thread. Does it serve the pricepoint well? Yes. Are there quality issues? Maybe. I didnt have any with mine. The top is stable, as is the neck. Needed a minor fret dress and clean up the nut slots. The neck block looks horrible but they probably said "who looks there anyway" as long as the joint is done securely I dont have a problem with that.

    As they say on Harmony Central: Should it be stolen or destroyed would you buy another? Yes, unless I had the money to go to the 1500$ range.
    Last edited by dh82c; 09-30-2009 at 03:45 PM.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by randyc
    Some people make a distinction of the materials used in non-solid guitars. I notice that there is a tendancy to avoid using pejorative words like plywood". Althought plywood is exactly what's being used to construct almost all Asian guitars, the preferred description, cleared by marketing, seems to be "laminate".

    There's nothing wrong with a guitar, like an ES-175, that is designed for a specific purpose, a specific sound, and the materials used to construct the guitar support the purpose - the mission, if you will - of the instrument. Experience suggests that, despite the protestations of others, there is a distinct difference in the wood quality, solid or plywood, used in the construction of a "cheap" guitar and a high quality model.

    I have heard literally thousands of descriptions posted on the internet suggesting that the cheap, Asian instruments are every bit as good - and even better - than guitars who are made by companies that learned their craft before the manufacturing giant that is now Asia possessed running water, electricity and the internal combustion engine. An example is one that I read while considering ordering an Emperor Regent:

    "Not only is this a fine electric guitar, I took it over to my buddie's house and jammed, him with his 1938 L-5 and me with my Emperor Regent. My Epi blew the doors off his Gibson."

    Gullibly, I listened to all the praise, (in retrospect, seemingly manufactured by pimps of Samick, or the like) and six or seven years ago, I ordered the Emperor Regent.

    I had trouble with it from the beginning not staying in tune and not holding action settings. Although I live in an area with virtually constant temperature and humidity, I tinkered with the Epi constantly for the first month that I owned it, trying different string combinations and setups to find the right feel and sound of the guitar.

    Eventually, I decided to cut my losses and hung the thing up on a wall. I decided maybe to give it away to a deserving someone rather than sell the problems to another. I either got the only "bad" Korean made Emp/Reg or maybe I substantiated a wide-spread belief that the quality really is inferior to U.S. instruments ... I didn't buy into that at first, because the exterior of the guitar was as beautiful as any that I own, even my L-5.

    BUT, after going through the excercise of allowing the "green" wood of the Epi to age/stabilize for almost seven years and inserting the 1964 Gibson P-90 pickup, re-stringing with quality strings and setting up the guitar to the best of my ability, I'm still disappointed with the sound. As I mentioned above, I had set my expectations on the sound of the lowest-priced Gibson guitar, the ES-125. Unhappily, the Epi sounded little like any of my other guitars so it's going back on the wall.

    There is no intent to suggest that others have the same guitar as mine, out of every 1,000 thirteen year-olds raving about the "jazz sound" of their Epiphone (without knowing any better) there MUST be some genuine players of taste and experience who are seriously, honestly describing the reasons why they are satistifed with this low-cost guitar.

    One man's experience only ... but I'm done with Asian guitars

    cheers
    Pretty good summary. Last May I was given the Samick L5 I still have. As a coincidence, it was hanging on my friend's wall. I don't have wall room -- too many pictures. I have decided that, the next fund raiser (I'm an officer on the board of the local food pantry, and have other opportunities as well) it'll go on the raffle or silent auction or whatever block.

    Gee, it LOOKS nice, but I have Gibsons....

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAQ
    I play (try to play) fingerstyle, and mostly remove pickguards - mainly because they don't (for me) serve any real purpose - although they add a real jazz look. Whenever I'm tempted to put them back, I always take them off again; but I would agree that if I added one it would need to be in keeping with the style now and not the piece of Epiphone plastic that came with it.

    I really do like the tone now, but the improvement is more sutble I suppose than I was expecting.
    RAQ, I have just noticed your location! Can I ask where abouts in Lincs you are? (I am in Grimsby).

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meggy
    RAQ, I have just noticed your location! Can I ask where abouts in Lincs you are? (I am in Grimsby).
    I was in Grimsby on Saturday night listening to the wonderful Leo Solomon Trio. I'm over by Sunny Scunthorpe.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAQ
    I was in Grimsby on Saturday night listening to the wonderful Leo Solomon Trio. I'm over by Sunny Scunthorpe.
    Well good heavens, closer than I thought! Where was Leo playing? A considerable time ago I was in a school jazz band and Leo was kind enough to help us with our playing and offer some encouragement. He is indeed a wonderful musician though, could have been full time pro with no problems but perhaps preferred to stick to teaching maths!

    I really must get out to see a bit more local jazz myself anyway! I hesitate to suggest it, but maybe we could get together for a jam at some point - for some reason I suspect you are somewhat more advanced than me but one way to find out! I would understand if not though, and amazing to find someone so close on this forum!
    Last edited by Meggy; 09-30-2009 at 04:48 PM.

  10. #59

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    Pretty good summary. Last May I was given the Samick L5 I still have. As a coincidence, it was hanging on my friend's wall. I don't have wall room -- too many pictures. I have decided that, the next fund raiser (I'm an officer on the board of the local food pantry, and have other opportunities as well) it'll go on the raffle or silent auction or whatever block.

    Gee, it LOOKS nice, but I have Gibsons....


    John:

    That's a fine idea, as a charitable fund raiser your MIK L-5 will be wonderful eye candy ! If this firms up into the real deal, e-mail me and I'll help out by donating my project Epi !

    Maybe there are other U.S. residents that would care to donate items to your organization in return for a nice little tax deduction...

    Seriously,
    Randy

    P.S. the empty space on the wall of my now all-American collection might be just the place for a Heritage that I've been thinking about.
    Last edited by randyc; 09-30-2009 at 05:18 PM. Reason: added P.S.

  11. #60

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    Hah. Our slogan: clear your walls!

    Seriously, we're looking at replacing the building we're working out of. I got bids to bring the old BBQ house up to code (and to meet ADA) and the consensus among the contractors so far has been "tear it down and start over."

    No, it's not MIK....

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
    Hah. Our slogan: clear your walls!

    Seriously, we're looking at replacing the building we're working out of. I got bids to bring the old BBQ house up to code (and to meet ADA) and the consensus among the contractors so far has been "tear it down and start over."

    No, it's not MIK....

    Nevertheless ...

    I appreciated the time that you spent researching my old Weissenborne, hence the Epi offer. It would be strictly a charitable donation and a receipt would be required

    Let me know if you'd like to follow up, you have my e-mail address ..

    cheers

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by randyc
    Nevertheless ...

    I appreciated the time that you spent researching my old Weissenborne, hence the Epi offer. It would be strictly a charitable donation and a receipt would be required

    Let me know if you'd like to follow up, you have my e-mail address ..

    cheers
    As a matter of fact, last week I attended our umbrella organization's mandatory annual meeting, and discovered that an IRS rule requires that we send out such receipts. I was our local outfit's corresponding secretary (writer of thank you letters) and I found that there is a requirement, too, that the letter should include the line "No services or goods were provided in exchange for this donation." Ah well, I'll be sure to tell this year's occupant of that exalted office.

    But so far it's yet one more project awaiting execution (an appropriate word, that!).

    Thanks. I appreciate your generosity.

  14. #63
    It makes me sad to see companys like Gibson and Fender have lost so much integrety. Sending stuff out of the USA to be made,and say under their specs and be so cheap. Iam not saying that Japan doesnt make fine guitars they do and so does others. You all most have to own a gold mine to buy a USA made Gibson are Fender these day. Alot of that stuff over seas is made in sweat shops. Epiphone was a wonderful guitar at one time when it was made here in the USA. It makes me wonder how many guitars Fender and Gibson really make here and maybe just put USA on it. I remember when Peavey was big about being made here, now they are sending stuff over seas. Carvin claims made in the good old USA but their acoustic guitars are not I was told.

  15. #64

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    Well, here is my story:

    I own a 70ies Japanese ES-175 clone (almost an exact copy, only the depth of the body is slightly less, plus it has a staple under the bridge). The neck looks like mahagony, with a glued-on heel. It has a 3-ply plywood body, don't know what material. I have seen this guitar with several names on the headstock, mine says "Condor". For the complete picture: I modified mine with a Gibson Burstbucker #1 at the neck, a new rosewood bridge and new electronics (and honestly: only to find out that the cheap stuff that was inside did a pretty good job!) and I tweaked with the set-up untill it felt just right: medium to low action with 0.012s, neck relief close to nothing (which I like nowadays). Frets are very low, like on old Gibsons, when they advertised that "Fretless feeling".

    A fellow musician, how plays the bass in a trio/quartet I also play in, owns a 1968 Gibson ES 175 single PU. Beautiful instrument, from just before things started to go a little less at Gibson's. His guitar still has a one piece Mahogany neck. (That changed a year later.)

    Now, I have put these two side by side and played both of them under the same circumstances. Here are my findings:

    Playabillity and feel: both guitars play great, I prefer the bulky neck of my Condor, but that's only personal preference. The nitro-finish of the Gibson feels better. The Grover-imitation tuners of the Condor operate a little smoother than the Klusons of the Gibby, but both guitars stay in tune just fine.

    Sound: played through a Peavey transistor amp ("Transtube" model) on moderate volume (we played alongside with an acoustic piano) both guitars produce a fine jazz-sound and we found it very, very, very (can't stress this enough) difficult to distinguish which was which, especially with our eyes closed! Eventually we concluded that especially in the low end the Gibson sounded a little tighter and more controlable, a little better also. Overall, the Gibson was a little more resonant and had a more 'acoustic' quality. With the pots full open, the Condor sounder thinner, with tone and volume rolled back they sounded very alike.

    I am very aware of the fact that under "living-room-circumstances" the differences were minimal, but once recording or playing an instrument live, such minimal differences can be enlarged a great deal, making the difference between a good, usefull instrument and an instrument that just doesn't cut it. Worth mentioning here is that I gig with my Condor every week under all circumstances, last weekend even packed next to the drummer standing close to my tube amp. My friend has a lot of trouble with his 175 when volumes get higher; it feedbacks easily.

    Hard to believe? Please judge for yourself. I obtained the Condor for around $125 and put another $150 worth of upgrades in it. The Gibson is worth now around $3500 or even more I guess. Which one is the better guitar? I think the Gibson wins on points and sheer quality, but if it's worth the difference in price....... What is the better deal? I leave that to the readers here to judge. Fact is that my friend leaves his guitar at home when he has to play in a bar or in crowded places, because he is afraid to damage such a pricey instrument and also fears having it stolen. He plays a cheap asian then......

    Is my Condor an exeptional good example of an Asian guitar? Maybe, I think it's age makes it somewhat better then new ones, since the woods available then were better for lower prices, but still.

    Just my 2 cents.....

  16. #65
    Iam not saying guitars from other countries are junk,Japan puts out some nice stuff Ive played alot of them. Ibanez makes some great guitars. I play a guitar from Canada a Godin and love it. The only reason I have a Gibson ES335 I bought it new back in the late 80s I think anyway I payed 600 bucks for it new.Same way with my Tele and my Gibson Goldtop LP. There is no way I could afford one now being retired. I also play Bass in a band I have a USA Fender P a nice vintage 60s model. and I left it at home and played an old Peavey T40 so it wouldnt get scratch. Then I was thinking I bought those guitars because of the way they played and sound and if anyones going to play them Iam and they may get scratch but Iam gping to enjoy them. My grandkids dont play why should I die and let some other S.O.B. wear them out. There is nothing wrong with buying guitars out of the USA when I was playing christain metal I used Jackson and Ibanez. Right now Iam lusting for a Ibanez AG100 and they dont make it know more but they have them on ebay,and I want a 103nt cause I like the way it sounds. But it just piss me off to see the pictures this guy has of is Epi. I played a Peerless I like and I dont know where it was made but it was cool I hope I didnt affend anyone. Before I got my Gibson ES335 I had a new Epi Sheraton I played in church I did change pickups to classic 57 and it played nice but it wasnt made like this guys.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by gary mitchell
    ... But it just piss me off to see the pictures this guy has of is Epi. I played a Peerless I like and I dont know where it was made but it was cool I hope I didnt affend anyone. Before I got my Gibson ES335 I had a new Epi Sheraton I played in church I did change pickups to classic 57 and it played nice but it wasnt made like this guys.
    Hi Gary,

    That's my Epi that you're talking about and I got pretty hot about it too. I never thought of myself as being close-minded and decidedly not xenophobic ... having seen some of these Asian-made guitars in recent years, I wondered why some of the guys were always trashing them when compared to U.S. or quality European-made instruments.

    But when I cut into that Epi and peeked inside, I saw what all the fuss was about ! I'm no 13 year old kid that's been playing for two years ... like you, I'm retired and I've played a LOT of instruments over the years, I know what quality workmanship looks like - this is NOT a quality instrument, unless one modifies the description to read LOW-quality instrument.

    That's why I made the offer to LPdeluxe to donate the Epi for charitable purposes. I don't want it any more but I DID pay a decent sum of money for the thing. So I don't want to just give it away to someone, not even one of my kids (not that they'd particularly care anyway). I want the thing to make SOME contribution other than kindling !

    Anyway, FWIW, I understand you getting p----d off at the pictures of the thing. You must have felt my pain

    randyc

  18. #67

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    Well, I too was filled with horror when I saw the plywood heelblock.... but also I have never seen this in an Asian guitar! Another friend of mine (I keep coming up with these friens...) has a cheap Chines guitar, one that you can get with any brand-name on them as long as you order more then 50 or so, and even this one has a solid heelblock (and even a one-piece neck as a fact...).

    The only explaination I can think of is that some employee in de Epiphone (or Un-Sung or whaterver) factory had a bad day because the boss just gave him a hard time, or he didn't get that raise he was asking for, and he decided to get even bij taking some plywood this time to make the heel out...... if it realy is policy to make it plywood since you can't see it anyway in a Regent then I too become very sceptic towards Asian guitars......

    (or go for the old Japanese ones!)
    Last edited by Little Jay; 10-07-2009 at 07:50 AM.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meggy
    A recent BBC radio program about Joe Pass made by the guitarist John Etheridge stated that Joe apparently hated the sound on the first Virtuoso album - it was all down to the engineer/producer and not what he would have preferred at all! Although it was also stated that the rather dry sound did give a certain "honesty" to the recording, and you can certainly hear what he plays very clearly.
    I read somewhere that they also mic'd Joe's amp (or maybe DI'd the guitar?) but somehow this track didn't get recorded or was lost - this might explain why there is one "amped" track on Virtuoso 1 among the other "unplugged" tracks. Frankly the playing is so astonishing I can overlook the recording!
    Last edited by Bill C; 10-07-2009 at 05:50 AM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by gary mitchell
    It makes me sad to see companys like Gibson and Fender have lost so much integrety. Sending stuff out of the USA to be made, ... It makes me wonder how many guitars Fender and Gibson really make here and maybe just put USA on it. I remember when Peavey was big about being made here, now they are sending stuff over seas. Carvin claims made in the good old USA but their acoustic guitars are not I was told.
    I can speak for the "ES" line of Gibson Semi-Hollows and Thinline Archtops. They are actually being manufactured 1 block south of Beale street in Memphis, TN. Full-Hollowbody Gibsons are manufactured in Nashville. The Factory tour in Memhis was great. However, I think some of the traditional feel in the operation may have been lost in the move from Kalamazoo, MI. It shows ocassionally in a detail here and there, but they try hard. Likewise, the crew that stayed in Michigan and went with Heritage may have suffered a bit in the breakup as well. I don't think it's so much a loss of integrity as it is changing circumstances. Things and conditions change, you know, and it affects industries and traditions. It's inevitable.

  21. #70

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    I have three Gibsons: a '70 Les Paul Deluxe, made in Kalamazoo, a 2000 335 made in Memphis, and a recent SG made in Nashville.

    I don't detect any difference in quality, whether wood or finish or hardware or whatever.

    I also have four Fender Precisions (yeah, I know, wretched excess, but one is already sold): two Ensenada, Mexico made, one Japanese made, and the new one, made in the USA. I would put the MIMs at the bottom, but they are very close to the others, and, in fact, one (a Classic '50s) has been my main gigging instrument -- it has now lost that status to my new American Vintage '57, but the only reason I am changing is because the polyurethane finish on the older one has a surface I don't like. The MIJ is a step above, but, again, it's a short step. The new one, MIA, is perhaps too new and shiny for me to be objective about it; in any case, if I were restricted to one of these as my permanent one and only, I'd be pretty happy.

    The difference between these Gibsons and Fenders and the various Squiers and Epiphones I have owned is tangible: they have higher quality finishes, much better looking (and mostly solid, except for the laminate 335) woods, and touches like the nickel hardware on the 335. The Squier was the worst: a heavy plywood body, a clunky neck (and, as a Precision player, I like big necks). This is what happens when you trust someone else with your precious products (and, on the other hand, the practice does put well-designed instruments into the hands of less wealthy players).

    I personally think that long-term satisfaction comes not from bling, but from robust and accurate construction: that's how you get instruments that play in tune, necks that don't warp, and electronics that don't have to be replaced before the new has worn off. The Gibsons and Fenders are made for the long haul. And credit them for keeping the faith: for all the new products designed to sell to teenagers with stars in their eyes (I call them the Chuck E Cheese guitars -- the Zoot Suit SG is a great example, but alas, there are more), they select good materials and apply well over 100 years' experience (Gibson) and 60 years (Fender) and have avoided the shortcuts taken by offshore makers. Cost savings are always going to be invisible.

    Gibson electrics and Fender basses were carefully designed for manufacturing (there are several videos online showing the building of a 335 -- it's fascinating to watch and to realize what a huge amount of handwork is involved). We are the beneficiaries of that care. It's easy enough to say "they don't make 'em like the good old days" and that's essentially true. I believe they make 'em better. On one discussion forum, a guy with access to a lot of "vintage" 335 got to measuring them, and discovered that the dimensions, the neck shapes, and the various parameters of the electronics were all over the map. Given the inflated prices being asked for "vintage" (and I'm not too proud not to take advantage -- I sold my '63 Country Gent for about 7 times what I paid for it in '82), I'd rather go to a well-stocked store and try a few of the model wanted and pick the "ONE."

    Because the quality of the instruments we buy is in our hands. I have read many a rant online where someone would go on and on about what a POS his (or her) new guitar or bass was...and it invariably proves that they bought the thing online. If you've done that and gotten a loser, well, that's the risk you take --and it's not the way to enforce our own standards on the manufacturers. And, I might add, shame on you! Guitars are too important trust to strangers to pick out for you.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    The only explaination I can think of is that some employee in de Epiphone (or Un-Sung or whaterver) factory had a bad day because the boss just gave him a hard time, or he didn't get that raise he was asking for, and he decided to get even bij taking some plywood this time to make the heel out...... if it realy is policy to make it plywood since you can't see it anyway in a Regent then I too become very sceptic towards Asian guitars......
    Nah.. have the same guitar. Mine is Peerless plant, 1999. Same hideous block.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
    I have read many a rant online where someone would go on and on about what a POS his (or her) new guitar or bass was...and it invariably proves that they bought the thing online. If you've done that and gotten a loser, well, that's the risk you take --and it's not the way to enforce our own standards on the manufacturers. And, I might add, shame on you! Guitars are too important trust to strangers to pick out for you.
    >>>GUILTY<<<

    But in mitigation, I also have three very fine Gibsons that found their way here by tracing my internet activities, two were selected for me by folks that I trust (Joe at Archtops.com and Frank at Gryphon.com). Those two are exactly what was described (perfect) and what I expected (beyond perfect).

    The third, a low-end Gibson ES-135, I thought would make a practical bar guitar, sold for $900. It set up very nicely and played easily - sounded like a 335. I spotted a teeny llittle crack near the bridge so I sent it back to Memphis and asked them to fill/touch-up.

    They immediately sent me another new 135, perfect in every way. The irony is that it's never been close to a bar ... shortly thereafter I was diagnosed with cancer and many former activities had to be curtailed. (I still like the guitar, though, it's very pretty although not as good a value as the Guild SG III, purchased new about the same time with more features and for less $$$.)

    I probably won't buy another internet guitar again, the Epiphone Emp/Rej experience combined with the fact that I have time on my hands - nothing prevents me from traveling to look at a guitar, now.

    My wife loves to travel and I wouldn't have to tell her the reason until I brought the instrument back to the hotel ...

    Would I ?

  24. #73

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    My Epi was an internet guitar. What I have found over the years is that certain companies are very consistent in their mass produced guitars. For an EPI, I played several of them in store and my older used one is nicer , half the price, and in a finish that is no longer available (sunburst finishes direct the tone towards the center of the top when it can vibrate freely My story and I am sticking to it. ) I go in a shop and try one Epi LP after another and cant tell the difference. Gibson isnt like that. You get great guitars (if you know someone at the shop because usually what they have on the wall are dogs) or you get dogs (usually on the wall lol).

    Next, lots and lots of clear photos. You cant tell if the neck is twisted or there is a loose brace but, again, aside from physical abuse, they are usually pretty consistent from one to the next.

    If you are going to buy a guitar on the net it also helps if you can do your own setup. Assume that the guitar needs new strings and trussrod and intonation. Factor that in to the price if you cant do it. I can handle any electronics, fret dress, new nut etc. Can do a refret but I had better be getting a sweeet deal on the guitar

    Having said all that, I have too many cheap guitars as it is so I am selling them off. Keep my Tele, my Ibanez strat (my first love), a funky Eko archtop, an acoustic and a classical. The EPI will probably go to fund a better archtop if I ever get that good. When I DO go to buy another one I would rather it isnt an internet sight-unseen purchase but I live in Montreal and this is pretty much just a blackhole for guitars. My options are quite limited.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    Well, here is my story:

    I own a 70ies Japanese ES-175 clone (almost an exact copy, only the depth of the body is slightly less, plus it has a staple under the bridge). The neck looks like mahagony, with a glued-on heel. It has a 3-ply plywood body, don't know what material. I have seen this guitar with several names on the headstock, mine says "Condor". For the complete picture: I modified mine with a Gibson Burstbucker #1 at the neck, a new rosewood bridge and new electronics (and honestly: only to find out that the cheap stuff that was inside did a pretty good job!) and I tweaked with the set-up untill it felt just right: medium to low action with 0.012s, neck relief close to nothing (which I like nowadays). Frets are very low, like on old Gibsons, when they advertised that "Fretless feeling".

    A fellow musician, how plays the bass in a trio/quartet I also play in, owns a 1968 Gibson ES 175 single PU. Beautiful instrument, from just before things started to go a little less at Gibson's. His guitar still has a one piece Mahogany neck. (That changed a year later.)

    Now, I have put these two side by side and played both of them under the same circumstances. Here are my findings:

    Playabillity and feel: both guitars play great, I prefer the bulky neck of my Condor, but that's only personal preference. The nitro-finish of the Gibson feels better. The Grover-imitation tuners of the Condor operate a little smoother than the Klusons of the Gibby, but both guitars stay in tune just fine.

    Sound: played through a Peavey transistor amp ("Transtube" model) on moderate volume (we played alongside with an acoustic piano) both guitars produce a fine jazz-sound and we found it very, very, very (can't stress this enough) difficult to distinguish which was which, especially with our eyes closed! Eventually we concluded that especially in the low end the Gibson sounded a little tighter and more controlable, a little better also. Overall, the Gibson was a little more resonant and had a more 'acoustic' quality. With the pots full open, the Condor sounder thinner, with tone and volume rolled back they sounded very alike.

    I am very aware of the fact that under "living-room-circumstances" the differences were minimal, but once recording or playing an instrument live, such minimal differences can be enlarged a great deal, making the difference between a good, usefull instrument and an instrument that just doesn't cut it. Worth mentioning here is that I gig with my Condor every week under all circumstances, last weekend even packed next to the drummer standing close to my tube amp. My friend has a lot of trouble with his 175 when volumes get higher; it feedbacks easily.

    Hard to believe? Please judge for yourself. I obtained the Condor for around $125 and put another $150 worth of upgrades in it. The Gibson is worth now around $3500 or even more I guess. Which one is the better guitar? I think the Gibson wins on points and sheer quality, but if it's worth the difference in price....... What is the better deal? I leave that to the readers here to judge. Fact is that my friend leaves his guitar at home when he has to play in a bar or in crowded places, because he is afraid to damage such a pricey instrument and also fears having it stolen. He plays a cheap asian then......

    Is my Condor an exeptional good example of an Asian guitar? Maybe, I think it's age makes it somewhat better then new ones, since the woods available then were better for lower prices, but still.

    Just my 2 cents.....
    Jay, nice report and good reading for all of us. I think that your story is a typical one EXCEPT that you started out with a pretty nice guitar. I recall some Japanese archtops that had mighty fine tone, action and went for under $100 (about forty years ago). So the comparison may not be valid, your very good instrument is probably not available these days and the MIC, MIK instruments are the standard.

    A comparison of more interest and validity might be, IMO, your MIJ guitar versus MIC or MIK counterpart. How about that - would that interest you ?

    When folks start comparing my Gibsons to their (insert Asian guitar name here), it doesn't bother me too much that I "over-spent". Satisfaction depends on one's bottom line and long-term intentions, right ? I don't own a U.S. made guitar that isn't worth a LOT MORE MONEY than I paid for it. At a conservative estimate, my collection is about 15 times more valuable than what it cost to acquire it ...

    Since I first realized the foolishness of divesting myself of a quality product that appreciates in value - and there are many more articles of this nature besides guitars - I've started thinking about the entire concept of "value".

    As an extreme example, consider a twenty-something, wanting to pursue a quasi-career in music - NOT necessarily a full career, just derive some satisfaction from playing music that one loves and hopefully get paid for part of the effort ...

    Same guy, let's assume he has a decent job and standard of living, thinks nothing of making house payments, car payments, food, utiliities, and so forth, that might total (for example) $3,000 a month. This "typical" middle-class wannabee jazz musician shows up at his weekly gig with his Joe Pass, Artcore whatever, ultra-cheap MIA guitar (but frequently also with a highly expensive U.S.A. made tube amplifier).

    I acknowledge that there are areas of music where the amplifier is actually more important to sound contribution than the guitar. But I don't play that type of music --- I think it's silly to spend more on an amplifier than on the prime mover of the music: the guitar !

    Inexpensive amplifiers that faithfully reproduce the nuances of an archtop guitar are not hard to come by for really reasonable prices. (Most of the high-priced amplifiers mentioned here are not my cup of tea, BTW.)

    Does anyone see the dichotomy ? If one is serious about one's ability to learn and make music, why use a tool that rates lower in your respect than your automobile ? I don't get it.

    Value is value and should be perceptible. NOT by flashy exteriors or by ten or twenty knobs ... but by the things that matter. Sound, playability, appreciation of an audience, lots of things that are not even readily described ...

    When I read about the comparisons that (usually immature) guitarists make between their $300 MIC guitar and their friends 1938 L-5 (an extreme example but one that I actually read) I don't instinctively assume that they are lying ... well maybe a little bit. But what I DO ALWAYS ASSUME is that taste is required to make certain distinctions, acquired with age and experience.

    My son, who is still in college, is served a glass of wine with dinner when he is home. I don't expect him to necessarily appreciate the vintage ... I am there to comment about the wine, should he show an interest, and help with the learning process. Music, and the way it is produced by different instruments, is also an acquired taste. Tastes change and I hope that the young ones that are trying their best to live up to the heritage of this wonderful music can appreciate what I'm trying to say.

    Without deprecating your guitars, still I hope that you will acquire a taste for the more subtle distinctions of a higher quality instrument. It wouldn't bother me too much to see the Chinese factories lose a little business and see quality American and European guitar makers regain the respect that they deserve.

    Is an L-5CES worth $5,000 - $8,000 more than a MIK Epiphone ? My god, yes !!! There's no serious doubt about it, although it may take a few years for some to hear the differences

  26. #75

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    Yeah Randy, you definately have a point and I would be lying if I said I don't dream of having a nice (old) Gibson, I do want one some day!

    But I still haven't convinced myself to go out and buy one, although I have a good income and enough savings to buy several nice vintage instruments!

    So why don't I? Mainly because my cheapo guitars get the job done just as well. After all it still comes down to what you play! (But I do admit that a good instrument triggers you to play better).

    But maybe the main reason why I don't buy an expensive Gibson yet is this: I visit several jamsessions where a lot of conservatory students come and play. Almost without exception they play on Ibanez, Epiphone or other cheaper brands. And then there is this one guy that one week shows up with his L5, the other with his L4-CES and sometimes with his vintage Gretsch. And believe me, no matter how expensive his guitar is, he is always totally blown away by the better playing of the guys on the cheap guitars. I expect this guy puts more effort into owning and buying guitars and gear than into becoming a better player. Well, as long as he enjoys that, who am I to judge him, but I think true music is not in the price of the instrument. Maybe there's some weird and twisted psychology behind this reasoning from my side, but I love the feeling of belonging to the "Cheap-guitar-guerilla-fighters" that concentrate mainly on their playing instead of their gear.

    And maybe some day, when I finally find my playing is worth it, I will reward myself with a nice ES-175 with the famous name on the headstock......
    Last edited by Little Jay; 10-08-2009 at 07:10 AM.