The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I was at the beginning of the year faculty meeting and had brought my guitar because I was going right to a rehearsal afterwards. We were hanging out because the few guitar teachers sit together and chat and one guy asked me what I had in the case and then saw Ibanez on the front and just had an unimpressed "oh, Ibanez" when he saw it. This is the guitar that has now replaced all of my playing time with my other guitars, some of which are more impressive by name, because it just sounds and plays so good and because I am getting into 7 string and my only other one is a really cheap solidbody I got to see if I liked 7 string. After a little chatting I said it was an '98 AF207, made in Japan and he was a little more interested, but it made me think of the whole brand value thing. I have had the opposite with my PM100 because although it is an Ibanez, it has Pat Metheny's name on it and I have had a few non guitarists gush about it just because of that and equate the good sound with the fact that it was his signature model (to the point that it was funny in one case where a sax player on a gig was telling his family and friends to come over and was gushing about it being Metheny's model).

    So I thought a discussion here might be interesting. How do you all feel about brand worth? Be honest - do you judge players by their instruments before you hear them play? I think I do a bit, and that is a shame but being a teacher it is a way to see who is more serious sometimes since students who come in with nicer instruments usually are more devoted and even out on the bandstand better players are usually playing better instruments. I think with Ibanez it is tough because they have high end top notch (and often better than the big name analogs) guitars but also entry level cheaper archtops and everything in between. And for yourself, do you feel pressured sometimes to bring a guitar you know people might be initially impressed with if you are playing with strangers on a gig or at a jam session? Do you seek out guitars that are made from big names or includes less widely prestigious guitars when looking to buy?

    It seems counter intuitive but I have 4 nicer Ibanez guitars in my guitar stable now and I find myself reaching for those more than the others, including the Gibsons. I don't think I will ever sell my L5 but I have been thinking about selling my 175 since it just isn't really getting played anymore. I think if I were still in college I might be taking out the "big guns" to prove a point but at 37 I don't really care much about first impressions beyond how things sound and luckily I get that impression from those I am playing with (usually but not always) too.


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  3. #2

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    I don't expect players to take the high end guitars to many places other than recording studios and small private functions: High end guitars are for safe places, a drunk knocking over a Super 400 could cause thousands of dollars damage. These days entry level guitars play great and in a band context are pretty much indiscernible from their high-end counterparts.

  4. #3

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    Your thread brought about a lot of funny thoughts in my head.

    When I first started playing the guitar 11 years ago, I was caught up in the brand name. If I saw a musician with that Epiphone "E" on his pickguard, I immediately thought of him or her as a lightweight.

    Now, I have matured a little, but I still have some ingrained prejudices that are hard to overcome. My gut reaction is immediate, but reason quickly takes over.

    It's a shameful thing to have, and is a form of snobbery and prejudgement - which I don't like!

  5. #4

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    I love my stable of Gibsons, and they play and sound wonderfull. I also have other less expensive guitars: Epiphone MiK Broadway and ES175, and the Aria PE180, plus the Epiphone Elitist Broadway. I just love them all. I'm weird this way I guess; loving one doesn't make me love the others less. The Aria somehow seems more old-school L5ces than my L5ces, mainly because it has that 1970s heavy mass and thick neck. The Epi ES175 is just spunky and chunky, and I love it. But the Gibsons have pride of place in my playing.

    That said, I'd not pre-judge anyone on what they play: I am well aware how excellent so-called "budget" guitars have become, and I also know that however impressed folks may be when I pull the L5ces out of the case, that only lasts until they hear me play!

  6. #5

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    I've heard enough guys tear it up on dogs that I learnt I shouldn't listen with my eyes.

    Cracked me up when I'd gig my Epiphone SG (an old one with a modified open-book headstock) and someone would come up to me on a break talking about how good my "Gibson" sounded ... the funny part to me was the crestfallen look on their faces when I told 'em it was an Epi.
    Last edited by Thumpalumpacus; 09-12-2017 at 08:04 PM.

  7. #6

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    Lol, when you get older, you learn, it's not brand stigma, it's model stigma!

  8. #7

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    "I've heard enough guys tear it up on dogs that I learnt I shouldn't listen with my eyes"

    ......says it all



  9. #8

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    Not once, while listening to Bird, Miles Trane, Monk, ... did I ever question what brand of instrument they were playing.
    Attended a clinic where Joe Pass played an Ovation acoustic.
    After the first few bars, I really didn't care what he was brand playing.

  10. #9

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    Guitar-brand shaming people is not nice. I prefer to body shame.

    John

  11. #10

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    I don't see it that way and I know tons of guys in NY, DC and cleveland playing $5k guitars on $50 gigs. Local great Bob Ferazza uses a '70s Gibson Super 400 on his $50 gigs and Peter Mazza uses an $8k L5 on $50 gigs and Paul Bollenback used a hand made guild artist award and Borys on tons of gigs at places like 55 bar. I've taken my '63 Kessel to plenty of $50 and pass the hat gigs.

    Regarding the OP, I've rarely run into brand name discrimination but in the rare cases I do, I just chalk it up to ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    I don't expect players to take the high end guitars to many places other than recording studios and small private functions: High end guitars are for safe places, a drunk knocking over a Super 400 could cause thousands of dollars damage. These days entry level guitars play great and in a band context are pretty much indiscernible from their high-end counterparts.

  12. #11

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    Only once have I ever encountered this; did a gig on my MIJ 62' Custom Telecaster - guy came up to say hello. Was friendly enough at first, said he digged the sound. Asked if it was a 'real' Telecaster. I replied 'yes, it's a made in Japan '62 reissue'. He laughed and said 'that's not a real Tele' and walked off.

    People are funny.

    I saw a great jazz guitarist, George Golla (google him if you don't know who he is); he was using an Epiphone SG. Sounded great. I couldn't care less what brand/guitar is used.

  13. #12

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    Fifteen years ago I took a community college class on building guitars because I wanted a second grade guitar for when friends came to my house to jam. I didn't want them touching my precious Martin. When I was done, the guitar I built played and sounded better than my precious factory made baby. But not just mine, of the seven or so completed guitars at least five were better than my Martin. Of course we had devoted nine months to build these guitars, not nine hours. Still, I couldn't believe the outcome.

    Ever since I started to question my adoration of brand name guitars. I really started to listen, and actually play, guitars. What a shock! $10k vintage Martins that sounded and played like they came out of a discount catalog. $12k Gibsons that hung on my neck like a bag of bricks, with almost as much tone and playability. I realized that none of the "top" brands consistently made outstanding instruments. And before anyone says, "yeah Martin is terrible, my Gibson is totally different" I often am shocked at what passes as a guitar with a Gibson logo. I saw a Gibson at GC a few months ago where the neck was so off center the treble "E" ran off the edge of the fretboard at the body join. It is as if someone pulled back the curtain and a shriveled little carnival guitar is yelling at me, "pay no attention to the real guitar behind the headstock logo!"

    There are many beautiful guitars out there. Some out of mega Chinese factories, some hand made by a devoted craftsman. The logo on the headstock, however, almost never has any bearing on tone or playability.

    YMMV.

  14. #13

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    Plain and simple I am a Gibson boy even with all the QC issues and the ridiculous prices. Westerly Guilds a close 2nd.
    Not so much the name but they just feel right, play right, and sound right to me.
    They simply have the best designs IMO.

    Wouldn't it be sweet if Ibanez bought Gibson and took over the manufacturing of Gibson archtops ?
    A perfect axe with perfect QC.

    I have never seen a really bad Japan made guitar.

    I must admit I am a bit of a snob when it comes to guitars made in places like Indonesia with thick poly finishes.

    Bottom line IMO USA has the best designs and Japan the best QC unless we are talking luthier hand made.
    A guitar brand means nothing if it doesn't inspire you to play more.

    I have always admired people like Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis basically playing the same axe their whole life.
    I have wasted a lot of time grasping for the shinier brass ring only to find out the previous ring was better.

  15. #14

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    This thing works both ways. I was in a Gypsy Jazz jam a few weeks ago with three other guitar players, and the value of their guitars was in inverse porportion to the ability of the players. Still fairly new to the genre, I quickly humiliated myself and was eventually able to slink away, but not without several admiring comments... about my nice guitar.

    I found out later they had been totally immersed in GJ for many years, went to Samois and Django-fest every summer and had inexpensive guitars for travel & camps. They sounded great because they played really, really well!

    It IS hard not to eyeball the other guy's guitar, but it tells you little about how well he plays.

  16. #15

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    Rio,

    Your Ibanez 7 string is an amazing sounding guitar (and I should know!). I had guitar players come up to the bandstand with that guitar and ask me how it was possible to make an Ibanez sound like an L-5. I would simply tell them tone is in the fingers. But I know that guitar has superb tone. And now you do too.

    I play some pretty high end guitars on some pretty low end gigs ($50-$100) because I like them. But I also take my Fender Strat (a $1,000 guitar at best) to gigs because I like her too.

    I judge a player by his abilities, not his guitar. It just so happens that my favorite guitars are archtops made by Gibson and John D'Angelico. So that is what I mostly play. When a guitar inspires your playing, it is all good. I wish my playing was inspired by Chinese made guitars. I would have more money in the bank.

    Enjoy the AF-207 and don't let the guitar snobs get you down.

  17. #16

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    Brand name companies perpetuate the "LOGO TAX". From little alligators on a shirt, to some dude's name on your underwear waistband, or logo on a purse. In some cases you get value for your dollar spent, in some it does not.

    Nowadays it's clear that you can get value and quality when craftmen and high grade materials get together

    Not long ago I got a beautiful Eastman, and even with its finish dings it rivals every other git I own that cost a LOT more.

    I am sorry that I had not "discovered" Eastman, Peerless, Ibanez, Aria, and others sooner.

    Are there some iconic git models that stand above some? Sure for now, but they do not stand alone.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlohaJoe
    This thing works both ways. ... the value of their guitars was in inverse porportion to the ability of the players. ...
    Funny thing with the people I find around here, they play a lot and it's always about the comfort. The more they play, the more comfort matters. One guy plays a $200 Hohner because it packs really well on a plane. He can play it just fine, if you wondered.
    Nice prestige guitars are still nice of course, but among the players, there's a lot more prestige in the music you make with your perfect instrument.

    If you're a player, you have your reasons why a guitar is perfect. What's on the other side of the nut way up there on the peghead... not so important. Funny, the whole marketing of guitars is aimed at making you fall for the part of the guitar that has the least to do with actual playing: The name on the top.

    David

  19. #18

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    When I was a teenager learning to play I dreamed that having a better guitar would automatically make me a better player. One of my schoolfiriends had been playing for 5 years and had a Martin D28. One day he let me play it, and he played my Kasuga copy. Welll...... my playing still sounded pretty awful on the Martin, but he still sounded amazing on my cheap guitar.
    That event changed my outlook considerably on equating cheap guitar with poor player....... Sure, a good instrument can improve the tonal output, but it's what you do with the instrument that really counts.
    I now have quite a few guitars, and sometimes I play the game of "you stay in the next room and tell me which instrument I'm playing".... lots of surprises there !

  20. #19

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    So I thought a discussion here might be interesting. How do you all feel about brand worth? Be honest - do you judge players by their instruments before you hear them play? I think I do a bit, and that is a shame but being a teacher it is a way to see who is more serious sometimes since students who come in with nicer instruments usually are more devoted and even out on the bandstand better players are usually playing better instruments.
    I guess people who know something about guitars and brandnames - which includes most of us on this forum - in the first place will expect a guy with $$$ guitar to be a good/devoted player. In my experience though this is not always what happens in real life. I have seen many examples of guys having $$$ guitars because they had the money to acquire one and then being so so players. Also seen several examples of brilliant and dedicated players play a cheap guitar simply because they could not afford anything else, - well, they might even like their cheap guitar.

    The best thing is we live in great times for guitarists as we can get fine playing and sounding guitars for next to no money. I remember when I started out, but that is a different story.
    Last edited by bluefonia; 09-12-2017 at 07:18 AM.

  21. #20

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    I don't pre-judge others by what they play. Since my very earliest days of playing I've encountered people with expensive/collectible guitars who can't play, and people who play brilliantly with anything you put in their hands, so I think I've learned that particular lesson. I do get caught up a bit in linking my own sense of self worth to owning prestige objects (alas, one of the consequences of living in an overly materialistic society), but the sheer quantity of phenomenally good cheap gear on the market now is forcing me to confront that. [not really, but pretending to be evolved scores bowcoo chix.]

    John

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I do get caught up a bit in linking my own sense of self worth to owning prestige objects (alas, one of the consequences of living in an overly materialistic society), but the sheer quantity of phenomenally good cheap gear on the market now is forcing me to confront that. [not really, but pretending to be evolved scores bowcoo chix.]
    Let's not get to carried away. There is absolutely no link between your ability to play and what gear you're allowed to buy.

    If you buy a painting priced like a ES-175 and hang it on your wall noone bats an eye. Art is art .. and high end guitars make us happy

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rio

    So I thought a discussion here might be interesting. How do you all feel about brand worth? Be honest - do you judge players by their instruments before you hear them play? I think I do a bit, and that is a shame but being a teacher it is a way to see who is more serious sometimes since students who come in with nicer instruments usually are more devoted and even out on the bandstand better players are usually playing better instruments. I think with Ibanez it is tough because they have high end top notch (and often better than the big name analogs) guitars but also entry level cheaper archtops and everything in between. And for yourself, do you feel pressured sometimes to bring a guitar you know people might be initially impressed with if you are playing with strangers on a gig or at a jam session? Do you seek out guitars that are made from big names or includes less widely prestigious guitars when looking to buy?
    Ah, "the dreaded equipment comparisons" to quote an erstwhile bandmate. A vexed question, to say the least. Do I judge other players by their instruments? No. Do other people? In my experience, yeah, quite a bit. I was booted from a band I co-founded because my guitar wasn't "good enough" (read "Japanese import"). Kinda hurt, and probably led to my eventual accumulation of more guitars, amps, pedals, PAs, and so forth than a dozen sticks could be shaken at. I've been questioned about playing a "Japanese guitar" despite the axe in question being made in Maryland (this was at a time when PRS was not yet almost a household word). I've had perfect strangers tell me "Gibsons SUCK!" and just as many aver that "Fenders SUCK!" with equal vehemence. Some people just like to vent, apparently. De gustibus non disputandam est.

    Do I try to match the instrument to the gig? You bet. The Jazz gigs get the ES-175; Rock/Pop, the aforementioned PRS Custom 24, a Les Paul, or a Strat; Country, a Telecaster; and so forth. I do so not to impress, but to get the job done right, by my lights.

    Do I seek out big names? One of my favorite guitars is a '30s Kalamazoo. Another, a '45 Zenith. Another, an L-48. "Nuff said.

    Somewhat peripheral, but related: I had a bar owner with whom I was friendly ask me about my equipment once. I gave a brief rundown on what I was playing with and through, and why. He said he had wondered why I sounded better than all the other guitar players he had heard at his place. "You have better equipment." I was a bit non-plussed. I always thought that the quality of my work had more to do withe the uncountable hours of practice. Just shows how wrong a guy can be.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI
    When you can get a beautifully appointed 335 style git in the $1k range and a plain Jane G branded is 2-3 times the cost I call that a logo tax. And fwiw a G may not get you laid but it sure impresses some including the owner. YMMV :-)
    Well ... The cheap gibsons might not be that pretty, but they are priced like the mexican fenders, so you can't say they're expensive ... and pretty isn't all. I tend to agree with the guys below


  25. #24

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    One of my best sounding guitars was a 60s, small body Harmony flattop. It had an immediacy and ring that was more compelling than many Martin, Guild, and Taylor guitars.

    Invariably, guitarists came up, looked at it, went "meh", and wondered aloud where the great sound was coming from.

  26. #25

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    For electric playing

    If you get a modern cheap Chinese CNC made axe
    Ibanez , epi , squire etc

    (play a few and pick a good one)
    and set it up right for you
    Nut , action , rod , smooth a few frets ,
    pickup height , good strings

    You'll be absolutely fine ....

    The good setup is crucial
    Skimp on the Guitar
    Don't skimp on the setup/strings ...

    (Just my opinion)
    Last edited by pingu; 09-12-2017 at 09:21 AM.