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I own a 2002 Gibson 57 Black Beauty reissue. This is an all mahogany body (no maple cap) guitar that came stock with a Burstbucker 2 in the neck and a Burstbucker 3 in the bridge. Many years ago, when I got this guitar, I was still doing the occasional rock gig. Seeing as I haven't done a rock gig in about 8 years and have no plans on playing that kind of music again, I have tough about selling this guitar. It gets a great rock/blues sound, but I have never been able to get a good jazz sound. I have owned other Les Pauls in the past, including a maple capped 1975 Les Paul Custom that sounded great for jazz. And people say that the all mahogany version gets a dark, smoky tone. Well that should be great for jazz, but mine is not.
Chords sound a bit muddy and ill defined and the top end is a bit too mid rangey for my tastes. I changed the aluminum tailpiece for a more modern zinc one and while it added some body to the bass response (a good thing IMO) the sound is not there. So I want to try a pickup swap. And seeing as I do not use the bridge pickup for jazz and that my goal is to make this a useful jazz guitar for loud gigs, I am only interested in replacing the neck pickup. Here are the choices that I am considering:
Gibson 57 Classic. I have these in three archtops and I think they make a great jazz tone. I am concerned that they might be too "muddy" sounding in this particular guitar. They are very bass heavy in the neck position.
Duncan 59. These are essentially a 57 classic but with an alnico 5 magnet. I put one of these into my Strat and I get great jazz tone with that guitar. My concern here is that the top end may be too bright.
Vintage Gibson early patent sticker humbucker. I have one of these left over from my 63 ES-175 restoration project (I bought 3 as a package deal). This pickup came out of a 63 ES-335. It is essentially a PAF with a different insulating material on the wire (poly as opposed to enamel). I would have to get some gold pole pieces and a gold cover (I would probably just take them off the stock Burstbucker) and then I have a real PAF in the guitar.
I am not interested in trying any of the boutique pickups (Throbak, Lollar etc.) because I have an actual vintage PAF already, but I wonder if my first two choices may give me a more "detailed" jazz sound (especially the Duncan 59) and be better in this guitar for the sound I am looking for. I use TI Swing 12's for a jazz sound on a Les Paul.
All responses are appreciated!
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08-31-2017 02:06 PM
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If the Classic '57 seem too muddy, have you considered a Biltoff of Lollar CC style pickup in a humbucker package. Purist argue that these aren't "real" CC pickups, but they are darn fine pickups that seem to work great in solidbody guitars. Some of the clarity of P90's, and some of the soul of a PAF.
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I like Gibson T-tops in Les Pauls, but I really only like maple capped, maple neck Les Pauls and they usually have those to begin with.
On the other hand, I only use my Les Paul for rock or metal, so I'm probably not really much help.
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I would also suggest that you talk to Pete Biltoft of vintagevibeguitars.com. He builds amazing pickups in any form or configuration you could come up with. He answers his own phone, and will talk with you until he is dead sure exactly what you want. Then he will build it for you! A cool feature of Pete Biltoft's pickups is interchangeable magnets - the pickups have a unique magnet mounting system that can change magnets in a few seconds. He sells sets of magnets reasonably and includes two different magnets with each pickup. Pete stocks Alnico 3, 4, and 5, and ceramic magnets. Huge grange of tones, and easy to experiment with. I'm not related, just a happy customer of Pete Biltoft's pickups. I had fifteen electric guitars - and sold all of them except the one that had his pickups! VERY satisfied.
Originally Posted by rlrhett
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I would also suggest that you talk to Pete Biltoft of vintagevibeguitars.com. He builds amazing pickups in any form or configuration you could come up with. He answers his own phone, and will talk with you until he is dead sure exactly what you want. Then he will build it for you! A cool feature of Pete Biltoft's pickups is interchangeable magnets - the pickups have a unique magnet mounting system that can change magnets in a few seconds. He sells sets of magnets reasonably and includes two different magnets with each pickup. Pete stocks Alnico 3, 4, and 5, and ceramic magnets. Huge grange of tones, and easy to experiment with. I'm not related, just a happy customer of Pete Biltoft's pickups. I had fifteen electric guitars - and sold all of them except the one that had his pickups! VERY satisfied.
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I've heard some nice Jazz tones from LP Studios which, I believe, are all mahogany. What's your pickup height? If you like TIs, have you tried their Bebops?
Last edited by Peter C; 09-01-2017 at 08:05 AM.
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Thanks for the replies so far. I have tried roundwounds. No help. The jazz sound that is in my head (Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery) mostly comes from alnico 5 PAF's. I think this is the solution.
My 63 PUP is alnico 5. The Duncan 59 is alnico 5. The 57 classic (like the Burstbucker 2 that is in the guitar) is alnico 2. I have gone on the Les Paul forums and a lot of guys complain that alnico 2 pups sound muddy in the neck position of a Les Paul. So I think I am going to eliminate the 57 Classic (or a Duncan Seth) from the equation.
My vintage pup has short alnico 5 magnets, poly wire, evenly wound coils and is unpotted
The Duncan 59 has long alnico 5 magnets, enamel wire, evenly wound coils and is potted.
I think I am going to try the vintage pup and see how it works. I am pretty sure it will solve both the muddiness and the mid range hump. If not, the 59 will be my next choice.
I have gotten great jazz tone from T-tops, but those were with maple capped Lesters. I imagine the alnico 5 T-tops will work well with a hog capped Lester. That might be my third choice.
I am not looking for a CC/P-90 sound. Nor do I want to spend the bucks on boutique Pups which are sometimes hard to sell if you do not like them.
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Based on your comments, I'd recommend exactly what you've concluded. First try the 60's PAF, once put together with a new cover. If that doesn't achieve your preferred tone drop in that T-Top.
Another consideration is to check the readings of those two pickups with a multi-meter. I bet you'll find they run below 8ma.
Finally, there are a few guys out there that will re-wind your pickups to taste. Check with Lindy Fralin, Lollar, Duncan, Armstrong to name just a few. Discuss your specific guitar and the desired tone with whomever you select as your pickup rewinder, and they should be able to deliver the goods.
LP Customs w/Mahogany tops are great guitars! With the two vintage pickups you currently own as a test mule, finding the right pickup for you should be a fun adventure in tone. Enjoy the ride.
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SS,
I am probably the last person here to give advice on Pickups, but a while ago I had a Dimarzio Super distortion in the neck position on a Ibanez Les Paul that I had a toggle switch on it that made it a single and double coil pickup. I loved the sound I got out of it with the single coil in the neck position. Not quite a Strat sound but very interesting to say the least. And then I would just flick a switch to bring it back to a full humbucker.
I hope I didn't embarrass myself..
L,J
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My 60's PAf runs about 7.5. I bet the Burstbucker 2 is over 8. And that, along with the alnico 2 is probably causing the muddiness. I am hoping the 60's PAf gets me where I want to be. I put a Duncan 59 into an alder Strat with a rosewood board and could not be happier. Superb jazz tone from a solidbody. I feel like the hog capped Lester should be capable of great jazz tone. Once I get it figured out, I will add another post to this thread. Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
Based on your comments, I'd recommend exactly what you've concluded. First try the 60's PAF, once put together with a new cover. If that doesn't achieve your preferred tone drop in that T-Top.
Another consideration is to check the readings of those two pickups with a multi-meter. I bet you'll find they run below 8ma.
Finally, there are a few guys out there that will re-wind your pickups to taste. Check with Lindy Fralin, Lollar, Duncan, Armstrong to name just a few. Discuss your specific guitar and the desired tone with whomever you select as your pickup rewinder, and they should be able to deliver the goods.
LP Customs w/Mahogany tops are great guitars! With the two vintage pickups you currently own as a test mule, finding the right pickup for you should be a fun adventure in tone. Enjoy the ride.
But if anyone else has any ideas, let me know!!
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I am looking for a particular sound that I achieved on other Les Pauls. I am hoping to get it with this one. What you described sounds like a setup that would be good for genres other than jazz. Originally Posted by Max405
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There is a Duncan '59 in the '69 maple-topped mahogany-necked Custom now in the custody of my grandson, and it has a wonderful range of tones. My ES-345 boasts Patent Sticker pups and tons o' tones. I don't think you can go wrong with either of those. Good luck!
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I am thinking that Burstbuckers are meant for rock tones. My 2002 was the first year of using them. They put an unpotted bb2 in the neck. The following year they went to a lower output bb1 in the neck. I am guessing the bb2 was just a bad choice. And now my job is to fix it.
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I recall the outcry from the masses over at the Les Paul Forum when Burstbucker II & III were first introduced in 2002 by the Custom Historic team at Gibson. Man, some folks loved them, and others thought they were the worst pickups ever created!!! They were so different than the former wax potted, sweet sounding Classic 57's. I enjoyed reading many angry, hand-wringing, angst-filled BB threads on the LPF
Oh, I too owned a Mahogany capped LP R7. It was a gorgeous '01 Black Beauty with 3 Classic 57's. It had the best tone (to me) of any LP I've ever played. The weight however (11+ lbs) was unmanageable. Each guitar is unique...as are each of us.
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Here is what I've liked, the first two you've already ruled out.
1. P-92s, relatively low winds. These are warm and articulate without the sharp highs.
2. SD Staple P-90s. These are brighter but have a good midrange.
3. Seth Lover/PAF sort of thing.
Next, I dial in tone with an amp that has flexible equalizing. I have an Evans and a JazzAmp to do this.
Then I try different strings.
I've been impressed that many guys find a guitar that seems to do it for them. Sometimes they are real beaters, too.
I believe it was Robben Ford who said to try a guitar for six months before deciding whether you want to let it go.
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Mark, I considered the Duncan Seths, but like the 57 Classics, they are alnico 2 pups. I am thinking that both this particular guitar, along with my tonal preference should have me going with alnico 5 paf type pups. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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the duncan 59's and the classic 57s have about the same resistance..ie 7.5k...the big difference is the bar magnets...you want the alnico v's...they have higher magnetic gauss..will accentuate the lows and highs..but highs can be tempered by pickup height and pole piece adjustments...also fact that you use pure nickel thom flats...little extra gauss helpful
dont know the k spec of your vintage 63...but the duncan 59 should do the trick...
luck
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 09-01-2017 at 08:07 PM.
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I'd say, go to Kent Armstrong and have him wind you one with the original specifications of the Benedetto B6.
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AFAIK, most LP's come with either 490R/498T or Classics. Being that yours came with BB's, I agree, they may not be everyone's cup of tea, and like you I am not fond of them either.
I have two suggestions:
First is to play a friend's LP with Classics or 490's (LP DC's and the Supreme have one or the other) and give them a go. These are mahog / maple but you might get an idea. My 2011 Custom Classic has 57 classics and I don't feel they're muddy, or too bright, A2 magnets and all.
Next, borrow pups if you can. LP's are easy to change out the pups and a decent test drive can be had in rather short time.
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Long time LP tweaker for jazz tone here. I find that A2's in the neck of an LP real hit or miss. Seems to be down to the individual guitar. Definitely gives more mids and can make the guitar sound woofy in the neck position. I much prefer humbuckers with A5's in the neck of an LP, whether Maple or mahogany capped. A2's I keep for the bridge position. I don't like burst buckers either, definite mid-hump.
My favourites are patent sticker T-tops, have found that they consistently hit the spot for jazz in an LP. The later 70's stamped bases however, are a real lottery as Gibson was using A3 magnets in that period due to the unobtanium nature of cobalt at the time.
I would not tinker with your '63 ..... worth too much money these days, and lose a lot of value if the cover has been off, etc. If you must have a gold cover, then as others have said try a Duncan '59, I think it will give you what you need. I find the Duncan '59 a pretty close second to the t-top in the neck of LP's.
From there, pickup height can have a huge influence on tone in an LP neck position in my experience. Don't be afraid to bury it in the body of the guitar, or have the pickup with a pronounced tilt with the bass side lower, on some LP's its the only way to get a clear tone in the neck.
Finally in all my pain of searching, I find that the best jazz tone in an LP comes from P90's
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...... another point, before any pickup swapping, you might want to check what is in the guitar in terms of control pots etc. Gibson in the early 2000's were not using the best in class when it comes to pots. I have found supposed 500k pots from that era as low as 300k, and that will make any humbucker with a 7.5k-ish wind sound woofy. In fact a fresh loom with good quality pots at the right values may be all you need to make your current pickups sound acceptable. Also you might want to try 50's wiring as that can elevate the top end a little.
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Oh my, man has "vintage Gibson early patent sticker humbucker" and asks what to do! The Burstbuckers, SD59's plus most suggestions are just copies of those Gibson originals.
So I would suggest that check the pots, if they are 300kohms change them with 500 kohms, take the gold parts from Bb2, put ghem to Your vintage pickup and install the pickup to Your LP.
I don't consider changing pu covers 'tinkering too much', specially if You can do it with care.
Some guitars (even Les Pauls, which I love in general) don't become better guitars with any pickup. And other guitars sound good with any pickup. I hope and believe Yours is the latter kind!
Good luck in Your tone quest!
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The cover was long gone from my 63 PUP when I got it so I am going to install the vintage PUP on the Lester. I will also check the pots and make sure they are 500K. Originally Posted by Herbie
It is interesting that some guys get great Les Paul tone with 57 classics (an alnico 2 PUP) and other guys claim that alnico 2 pups do not sound good in the neck position of a Lester. I have learned a LOT about PUPs from reading posts at the Les Paul forum (anybody who thinks we jazz guys are gearheads needs to go there. Those guys are seriously tone obsessed, a good thing in my book).
I am a fan of Les Paul Customs. For 20 years, my main jazz guitar was a 75 LPC with patent sticker T-Tops. I used flatwound strings on her and she sounded great. This guitar replaced that one and I have played her less and less over the years and was even considering selling her. (I actually had a very good cash offer on a Craigslist ad, but something told me to turn it down) It finally dawned on me that this fine playing and beautiful guitar just needs some tweaking to get me inspired to play her. I hope that the PUP swap does the trick. I was also going to sell the vintage PUP but decided to keep it for a bit just in case. Maybe it is kismet that I did not sell this guitar or this PUP. In the next week or two, I will make some time and install it and will take the guitar to a gig or two and will report back on this thread so this information will be available to others.
Then there is this idea. The original HOG topped Lesters did have P-90's. Some of the replies on this thread are making me consider that too. Hmmm.....
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The two mid 50's LP customs I had in the early 70's were both equipped with the bar magnet neck pups which I disliked. The bridge pups OTOH were marvelous, EXTREMELY noisy but wonderful. Before selling the LPs I harvested both of the bridge pups and still have them today.
Someday I'm going to find a nice p90 equipped LP and have a go at it with the 50's pups.
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After swapping pickups in some 4-5 different Les Pauls I have learned that in some wood Classic 57s get muddy, but then in some guitars it is best thing ever happened.
Burstbuckers are not bad pickups. But only under 30 year old ears would like a Bb2 in the neck position of a LP!
If You find a decent priced LP Custom with P90's, go ahead! But I am afraid the good ones are the old ones and they are a bit pricey.
There is many tickets to heaven but good P90's in a Gibson will take You closer to the sound of original jazz AND rock'n'roll!
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