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  1. #151

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    i agree the reissues are outliers and I wouldn't compare them to the classic tones but the guitars in the '60s and 70-72 and then '83 - mid '90s have what I consider the classic 175 tone. In my facebook group "modern jazz guitar" there are 7-10 guys who regularly post clips of their vintage 175s and they have a very identifiable and common tone. The benedettos don't sound like 175s and I agree that the eastmans have a benedetto vibe to them but if you're looking for a 175 clone, the 371/372 ain't it.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    Jack,

    The Aria in the picture above is an early-70s Matsumoku effort. It pre-dates the Herb Ellis model by about five years. It is a different guitar. I've played both. I like both. IMO, neither is as "175" as the comparable period effort from Ibanez. All three, however, sound and play great.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Those have maple necks and sound very bright compared to the '60s 175s.
    It depends. The 2355 varies depending on what factory they sourced them from (I don’t think there’s a period to pinpoint). To my knowledge some of them definitely have mahogany necks, but I think I only saw them as laminated/3 piece necks, as did Gibson have in the 70ies. My 175 copy branded Condor definitely has a mahogany(-type) neck, but there are differences between Asian and South American mahogany (and African and Indian mahogany for that matter) and I think they do sound brighter indeed (but not as bright as the ones wirh maple necks).

    But the construction and body shape of the 2355 also varies. Some are true copies, with parallel bracing and the rubber grommet for the pickup selector switch, others have no (!) bracing but a sound post and are even lacking the kerfed lining that inforces the connection of bottom and top to the sides.

    The trick is to find a true copy with mahogany neck and the right construction with paralel bracing. Those come very close to the Gibsons. But prices of those are also rising. Still cheaper than 50ies and early 70ies Gibsons though.

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by 995
    ... And I play more fusion than anything else at a moderate level. ...
    Then why do you want an ES-175? Seems like a Les Paul, or at least a solidbody (or perhaps semihollow), 2-humbucker guitar, might be better suited.

    What about a Comins GCS-1?

  6. #155

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    The Re-Issued 1990's (I think) Epiphone Zephyr Regent is a single pickup ES175 style guitar with mahogany neck and back/sides. With a good pickup they are wonderful guitars. They are lighter than contemporary ES165/175 models, more like a single pickup VOS 1959 ES175. I love mine and the Seymour Duncan Seth Love pickup was perfect for it.

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by dconeill
    Then why do you want an ES-175? Seems like a Les Paul, or at least a solidbody (or perhaps semihollow), 2-humbucker guitar, might be better suited.

    What about a Comins GCS-1?
    I don't think anything is wrong with wanting an ES 175 to play fusion as Pat Metheny would attest. I can't blame them if a guitarist thinks an ES-175 is sexier than a solid body and likes it's vibe and tones better.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-08-2020 at 12:50 PM.

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I don't agree that it's hard to define the 175 tone. The 175 tone is very distinctive and there's a very common standard for it.

    OP is looking for a hollow body at a cheaper budget than an ES-175 that has a nice jazz vibe .. He is quite open about getting cheaper Ibanez guitars and non-175s like the GB10.

    Why not let people suggest what they like to him instead of getting down to some sort of useless nick picking contest about what an ES-175 is and is not.

    Are you really trying to tell me that Jonathan Kreisbergs maple necked 70s ES-175 isn't a guitar that I should want?

  9. #158

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    To the OP:

    Get a real 175. If money is an object, find a "players grade" one from the Norlin era.

    As has been said, "Ain't nothing like the real thing baby".

  10. #159

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    Who Makes the Best ES-175 Clones?-ibanez20175-jpg

    #2 Gibson ES-175
    #10 Ibanez 2355 (ES-175 Copy)


  11. #160

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  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    The Re-Issued 1990's (I think) Epiphone Zephyr Regent is a single pickup ES175 style guitar with mahogany neck and back/sides. With a good pickup they are wonderful guitars. They are lighter than contemporary ES165/175 models, more like a single pickup VOS 1959 ES175. I love mine and the Seymour Duncan Seth Love pickup was perfect for it.
    I picked one up last year. Really a nice guitar and reflective of Korean quality at its best IMHO. Not overbuilt, not overpriced - just right. I haven't changed the pickup, but I will consider a SL in the future after I sell one guitar to thin out the herd. It won't be this Epi though. It's too nice for what it is.

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    OP is looking for a hollow body at a cheaper budget than an ES-175 that has a nice jazz vibe .. He is quite open about getting cheaper Ibanez guitars and non-175s like the GB10.

    Why not let people suggest what they like to him instead of getting down to some sort of useless nick picking contest about what an ES-175 is and is not.

    Are you really trying to tell me that Jonathan Kreisbergs maple necked 70s ES-175 isn't a guitar that I should want?
    Why not let people reply to conversation in a natural way (I was replying to the subject header) instead of trying to police the flow of the conversation?

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Those have maple necks and sound very bright compared to the '60s 175s.
    I agree with LittleJay. Gibson ES-175s vary massively in tone, not only based on construction woods but also on hardware and strings - a TOM bridge with metal saddles will sound brighter than with nylon ones, and even more so than a wooden one. The same is true of the Ibanez 2355. I must have played more than 20 over the last 40 years - some had a "thunk" close to a 175, others a more bright tone, and everything in between. The only way to really know whether the sound is in the range you want is to try them with the amp you plan to use......
    What really makes the difference with Pat M's sound is the right type of toothbrush and the correct brand of masking tape! Choose well.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    I picked one up last year. Really a nice guitar and reflective of Korean quality at its best IMHO. Not overbuilt, not overpriced - just right. I haven't changed the pickup, but I will consider a SL in the future after I sell one guitar to thin out the herd. It won't be this Epi though. It's too nice for what it is.
    If you can't afford the Seth, I have been delighted and surprised by the Steward MacDonald Parson Street Golden Age PAF clone. Punches way above its class.

  16. #165

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    thanks for replies. good info all around. I was leaning toward an Ibanez because I played an Ib acoustic years ago and still think about it. One of the good ones. I think they are rugged. And I want to spend about 800-1000$ if I can. I am adamant that it be maple body,no Linden, and maple neck if possible.It doesnt have to be stellar. And scratches dont bother me at all.
    If anyone sees one online and wants to message me feel free. I am going to sell my Collings acoustic to fund it.D2H 1992.
    I will try Reverb to see if I can trade also..

  17. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    If you can't afford the Seth, I have been delighted and surprised by the Steward MacDonald Parson Street Golden Age PAF clone. Punches way above its class.
    Thanks. Not sure what to do yet, but I always wanted to give the SD SL a go. I have another surprise coming this year and want to sort it out before I get to this anyway. It is guitar related though, so I will be the only one stoked around the house once things fall into place. Hopefully all for the better.

  18. #167

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    That Ibanez AKJV95 is worth finding used. Mine came from a poster here. He very sensibly upgraded it in many ways. New tailpiece, better wooden bridge, new tuners, pots, nut. With the most important mod being Seth Lover p/us.

    Not an ES-175 clone. Shallower in depth, laminated spruce top vs. laminated maple of the ES-175. And the neck is 3 piece maple. Specs aside, it adds up to one of the best sounding and playing archtops I've tried so far. On the bright side, yes, the "just right" variety of bright. Very responsive to tone knob rolloff, so how bright or dark is user choice. The Seths in this guitar are perfect. A chacun son gout of course. To me, this AKJV95 is a real keeper.

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by 995
    I see now online that Guitar center has tons of Ibanez clones... and they are cheap except the GBs are more.
    I guess the kids want solid bodies... good for me I want hollow..
    Maybe say "archtops" instead of clones? Clone implies "exact copy" in terms of construction, appearance, and sound. Ibanez does not make any 175 clones in that sense. They make a few models that have almost the same shape and dimensions, but different sound and construction, and others that have similar sound and construction but different shape and dimensions, and still others that are entirely different in all ways. But you seem to be lumping them all together as 175 clones. Ditto for Eastman. This had the effect of triggering the on-going argument here about the true essence of a 175 and whether or not anyone else truly replicates it. Also, maybe tell us what qualities you're actually looking for (perhaps by example of a recording).

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 01-09-2020 at 12:43 PM.

  20. #169

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    The Epiphone ES-175 Premium that they did a couple of years ago is worth a look too.
    It's got Gibson 57 pickups and a very authentic 175 vibe.
    The matte finish is a turn off for some buyers, but it is a solid 175 on the cheap.

    Also, I'm with Stringswinger -- why not get the real deal?

  21. #170

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    Epiphone is the only non-Gibson brand that is allowed to use the exact specs. They did it with Epiphone ES 175 premium. There are threads on the forum about that model. Exact specs, identical pickups, even nitro finish.

    No non-Gibson ES 175 will likely be as close to the original as those guitars. Looks like Epi did a very good job with them.

    In fact technically it's not any more a copy than Mexican Strat or Squire Strat are Strat copies.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-09-2020 at 01:43 PM.

  22. #171

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    Not the cheapest, but the Heritage H-575 is probably the closest to the original Gibson 175 $3500 USD

  23. #172

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    I have never been able to get a 175 sound out of any guitar except a 175. That said Lawson probably has the best answer in the Epi 175 I bet it come very close. The thread reminds me of the great L5 threads.

    If you want an L5 sound get and an L5............. So to the point I go with Professor Lawson he has the answer.

  24. #173

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    I picked up an AKJV95 last summer and have been playing it quite regularly ever since. It feels right to me, sounds a bit bright, very happy with it overall.

  25. #174

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    Would an ES165 be considered an ES175 clone? If so, its as close to the 'real thing' as one can get.

  26. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    Would an ES165 be considered an ES175 clone? If so, its as close to the 'real thing' as one can get.
    They are great guitars and were undervalued a lot longer that ES-175s were, but they are different animals IMHO. Maple ply back and sides for one. Also, I don't think that they ever used the same pickup. There is also the floater version. Obviously not comparable with a 175.

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    They are great guitars and were undervalued a lot longer that ES-175s were, but they are different animals IMHO. Maple ply back and sides for one. Also, I don't think that they ever used the same pickup. There is also the floater version. Obviously not comparable with a 175.
    I have a 90's ES165 and it's superb, but yes, the pickup is different though the sound is not radically different. Noticeable, though. I think on a budget the Epiphone Zephyr Regent Re-issue is also excellent. Mahogany back, sides, neck, one pickup. Put a good PAF equivalent in there and you'll have something. They resemble the VOS1959 ES175 more than they do the heavier, modern ES175/ES165.

    Somewhere eon this forum I have a "shoot out" amongst several of these 175 type guitars. I'll see if I can find it.

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    They are great guitars and were undervalued a lot longer that ES-175s were, but they are different animals IMHO. Maple ply back and sides for one. Also, I don't think that they ever used the same pickup. There is also the floater version. Obviously not comparable with a 175.
    Pickups are different but that's easy to change if so desired. Both ES 175 and 165's have maple ply back and sides typically with the exception of 80's 175's which had mahogany I believe.
    I think 165's being single pickup is the big difference. Single pickup modern 175 is a real rarity.

  29. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I don't agree that it's hard to define the 175 tone. The 175 tone is very distinctive and there's a very common standard for it. The Eastman 371/372 do not sound like a 175 by the way.
    The Es-175 tone between the 50's and 70's, between the 80's and 2010's, are all different to some degree imo.

    People say Joe Pass has the typical Es-175 tone but he played two different types so i suspect there's a kind of placebo effect going on.

    Wes Montgomery didn't have an easily defined Es-175 tone. I think the easily defined ES-175 tone is mostly old recordings with flattened amp eq's on a shorter scale neck.

  30. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by 995
    I was looking at the Ibanez hollow bodies. among them was the AKJV95 as well as the GBs and the Pat Metheny 200.

    It doesnt look like they make the JV95 anymore..?? nice axe... what do you think about the GB models???

    I would like to buy used. And I play more fusion than anything else at a moderate level.

    Do you see many used JV95s?
    Guitar Center has them for $699..

    AKJV95 Artcore Expressionist Vintage Series Electric Guitar: Ibanez AKJV95 Artcore Expressionist Vintage Series Electric Guitar Dark Amber Low Gloss | Guitar Center


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  31. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    Would an ES165 be considered an ES175 clone? If so, its as close to the 'real thing' as one can get.
    For most of my life I have played 175’s from the 50’s and 60’s. They are terrific guitars with a unique sound and are the perfect instrument for the working musician. Having said that, I bought a 165 a few years ago and It was also a really good guitar. Mine had the built in Humbucker and it sounded very much like my vintage 175’s. I think a 165 is a real bargain in today’s market.
    Keith

  32. #181

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    Greco Super Real FA 750 (1989)

    Mine ES 175 like and me here in Paris


  33. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Room135
    Greco Super Real FA 750 (1989)

    Mine ES 175 like and me here in Paris

    Sounds great!

  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbs
    Guitar Center has them for $699..

    AKJV95 Artcore Expressionist Vintage Series Electric Guitar: Ibanez AKJV95 Artcore Expressionist Vintage Series Electric Guitar Dark Amber Low Gloss | Guitar Center
    I have a AKJV90, which (as far as I can tell) is the same guitar, but the fret board is different. The 95 is ebony, and the 90 is maple. I haven't played a 175 in some time, so I can't talk of how it compares. But I really like mine and wouldn't dissuade anyone looking to buy one.

  35. #184

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    For whatever it might be worth, I think the Seth’s tend to work best in a guitar that has a strong natural resonance, be it hollow or solid body. To some extent they “deliver what they’re fed” without adding a great deal of coloring, they really amplify the natural sound of the guitar they’re in, at least as far as in pretty clean, low gain traditional jazz sounds. If you have a guitar that isn’t a joy to play unplugged, I’d vote against SL pups.

  36. #185

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    Distancing may be starting to get to me...but I hope I don't get too snarky:

    I would have to say that Gibson makes the best ES-175 clone. Since CMI and the cement folks took over Gibson back in...what, 1969...my assertion would be that it really hasn't been "Gibson," only "Gibson-ish."

    Mind you, Gibson guitars from '69 onward are pretty great, but in some sense they are clones of the instruments from the glory days. A Les Paul made after 1968 can be awfully good, but it's not the same thing as the instrument it is patterned after. Same thing with a ES-175.

    This doesn't keep me from having great attachment to many of the ES-175, L5CES and other guitars made in the '80s, 90's and after. We give Henry J. a lot of gas, but in reality some of his "clones" are tremendous guitars in their own right.

    They still strike me as clones, however, much as Fenders made after 1964--many of them simply outstanding--seem "Fender-ish" to me. Just sayin'.

  37. #186

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    I was watching some old Steve Howe with Yes vids a few days ago and somehow ended up with this Greco the following day heh
    Colour me impressed, this is a really nice guitar!
    Yes, the nut is slightly too narrow but for some reason doesn't bother me so much on this guitar.
    My main semi experience in the past was early 60's Gibson's, '61 blond ES-350, '62 ES-335, ES-330 & LP/SG Custom
    So I normally go for the thin profile, wide nut style (the reason I avoided Tokais and other import guitars in the past)
    Even the Gibsons had that narrow nut from the mid-60's until 1982 when they came to their senses.

    I can't afford Gibsons anymore so I'm pretty pleased with this Greco
    It seems to be a late '73 version from what I can gather from online catalogs etc
    It has the less flared headstock, fret nibs, spruce laminate top and is pretty mint really, and sounds great









    I will check those pickups when I restring, the covers look a bit too new and shiny to be original. They sound awesome anyway.

  38. #187

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    That Greco's a beauty

  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    That Greco's a beauty
    Yeah, I'm lovin' it!
    It's quite weighty, so it is a different sort of animal to an old Gibson.
    Last edited by sasquatch; 11-08-2020 at 11:18 AM.

  40. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    I would also throw Godin into the mix: I really love their thinline Premiere.
    Just to be clear: The model is called the Montreal Premiere.

  41. #190

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    Your Greco looks great sasquatch!

    Just out of curiosity, how is the top supported? Does it have parallel bracing or a sound post?

    Neck is mahogany?

  42. #191

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    Since we revived this topic I can point out another interesting ES-175 copy or at least very closely related model: the Stanford Fatboy:



    Attachment 70444


    Stanford Crossroad Fatboy 75 - Stanford Guitars

    Neck is maple instead of mahogany, though. It seems to have similarities with the Eastman AR371/372 and T49 in used materials and even the worn/relic finish. I know the Eastmans sound different from the Gibsons; lighter and brighter (more modern?), so that might also be the case for the Stanford Fatboy.

  43. #192

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    I have the nagging suspicion (since a few years already) that the majority of these higher-grade models all come from the same shop ...
    Re the initial question : "The Best" is a pipe dream, there is only "The BEST at this particular point in time FOR YOU" , depending to large part on sheer luck,
    true hands-on experience and budget. On paper/in pix these all look great, what a surprise ....



    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    Since we revived this topic I can point out another interesting ES-175 copy or at least very closely related model: the Stanford Fatboy:



    Attachment 70444


    Stanford Crossroad Fatboy 75 - Stanford Guitars

    Neck is maple instead of mahogany, though. It seems to have similarities with the Eastman AR371/372 and T49 in used materials and even the worn/relic finish. I know the Eastmans sound different from the Gibsons; lighter and brighter (more modern?), so that might also be the case for the Stanford Fatboy.

  44. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    Since we revived this topic I can point out another interesting ES-175 copy or at least very closely related model: the Stanford Fatboy:



    Attachment 70444


    Stanford Crossroad Fatboy 75 - Stanford Guitars

    Neck is maple instead of mahogany, though. It seems to have similarities with the Eastman AR371/372 and T49 in used materials and even the worn/relic finish. I know the Eastmans sound different from the Gibsons; lighter and brighter (more modern?), so that might also be the case for the Stanford Fatboy.






    I have the nagging suspicion (since a few years already) that the majority of these higher-grade models all come from the same shop ...
    Re the initial question : "THE BEST" is a pipe dream, there is only "THE BEST at this particular point in time FOR YOU" , depending to a large part on sheer luck, true hands-on experience and budget. On paper/in pix these all look great, what a surprise ...

  45. #194

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    I played an Ibanez lawsuit which I wish I would have bought. It was outstanding! While my AR-371 is not exactly a clone, I like it better than any ES-175 I have ever played.

  46. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    Your Greco looks great sasquatch!

    Just out of curiosity, how is the top supported? Does it have parallel bracing or a sound post?

    Neck is mahogany?
    It has parallel bracing, which I can feel. I can't see a soundpost. Neck is maple but dark stained.
    Back is maple so I assume the dark sides are as well. Top is spruce laminate.
    Tuners are Greco I assume by Gotoh. Not the star tuners but identical build.
    Wiring inside is braided which has me wondering. Is that normal for '73 Greco pickups?
    I say it's a '73 because it was sold to me as an S-50 and the catalog changes to S-55 in 1974
    S-50 for sunburst models and N-50 for natural I've realised! D'oh!

  47. #196

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    Thanks for the info!

  48. #197

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    This is my Condor ES-175 copy. I suspect it is (early?) 80ies but I am not sure. It has the cheaper construction method: top and back glued directly to the sides without the use of kerfed rims, no bracing but a sound post. The neck has a nice big profile (deep but not too wide) that feels comfortable, very much like my 1950 ES-125. I sanded away some finish in the trussrod cavity to check on the wood and it is definitely a type of mahogany, not maple. I am guessing it's not a one piece neck, but the dark finish doesn't reveal much.

    It came with single coils disguised as humbuckers. I replaced all the electronics and the pickups (Gibson Burstbucker #1 and Stewmac Golden Age). Also the rubber grommet around the switch, bridge, knobs and the pickguard are upgrades by me. Tuners are no-name Grover-imitations but work like a charm. For a cheap guitar (I paid $150 used) it plays and sounds really, really well. Of course, the upgrades cost me more than the guitar itself :-). It used to be my main guitar for a couple of years and I gigged a lot with it!

    I used to play with a guitarist owning a '69 single PU ES-175 and have played the Condor a lot side by side with his Gibson and also thru the same amp in many occasions and in all honesty, the guitars sounded nearly identical (he did use thinner strings though). I did prefer the feel and playability of the Gibson though, and that had slightly more thunk.

    Fun fact: as an experiment I glued in parallel bracings (reaching from neck to bridge) roughly fitted to shape. Big mistake! The guitar suddenly sounded very thin and brittle! So out they came and now it sounds good again.














  49. #198

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    Btw, my Condor came with witchhat knobs that were so authentic and vintage looking that I put them on my Gibson ES-333.....

  50. #199

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    Looks nice!
    Sometimes the more cheaply constructed boxes can have more resonance and character
    I think of the 60's Guild Slim Jim I had, cheaply constructed but had a lovely thrumming character not unlike an old Maccaferri