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SF,
Originally Posted by silverfoxx
The 165 is a very surprising guitar. The 1st one I had was Great. This one is also great but in a different way.
I always judged the guitar poorly, because of the volume knob placement AND because many others didn't speak too kindly about it. But for me, it is an OUTSTANDING guitar. I like it a lot. Not to mention, its very Purdy..
Thank you my brotha. I like an electric acoustic better too. In fact, my GJS when played electrically is great. I tried doing the acoustic recording in honor of how Joe recorded this originally. I really don't like Joe's tone on the acoustic "virtuoso" recordings either. So from now on, I'll save myself the headache of setting up the acoustic recording stuff and I will just go electric.. However, my desire to try out a Barbera Transducer pickup is still there. I will get one, one day for the GJS.. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
great point about the plywood sometimes being better. Like I've told you, when I do snag an L5, my goal is figure out how to conform to IT. I have a feeling the L5 end up being my go-to guitar for everything.
Thanks bro.
As always, C74, you are a such a gentleman. Thanks for your posts. You are a credit here. Originally Posted by citizenk74
Joe - your tone is fittingly "lush" and "lively" - fine, fine, fine!
Rio, Thank you sir. I gave a listen to a recording I made with your Wine Red 175 last night. "Minor Detail". You can really hear the difference in the more powerful full size 57's in your 175 over the BJB in the 165. That is great guitar and I hope you are enjoying it. Originally Posted by rio
Thanks!
Joe D
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09-01-2017 12:53 PM
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Superb! I'm with you on preferring the electric sound. It allows me to think about the music itself and the mastery of the musician playing it. Look at all the streams of jazz greatness flowing into that video! A Duke Ellington tune, as played by Joe Pass, on a Gibson Herb Ellis guitar, keeping a promise to Patrick Amato. Originally Posted by Max405
You got layers of great stuff all over this!
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"But you're right, two years and a wake up and it seems a part of this forum died with him. It's going to take the passage of more time. What a storyteller that Marine was!" +1 Patrick was quite the nucleus on many of these threads. He was also a very caring guy who worked to get the right guitar into your hands.
Joe: Holy smoke! "Lush Life" on your ES-165 is sensationally great sounding. I never realized that the BJB-equipped 165 was THAT good. IT IS THAT GOOD! Beautiful chart, sensitively played, with _tremendous_, haunting tone.
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Hey Joe, Originally Posted by Max405
As one with both the 165 and the L5, I can happily inform you that neither of those guitars will eclipse the other. They are both wonderful and do very different things, each in its own fabulous way. You'll enjoy the differences. Each one has qualities also that will change how you play. The L5ces is king for a good reason, but that ES165 is still a great Prime Minister who can get the job done.
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And we cant forget Billy Strayhorn. Enough has been said about him, yet it still blows me away that a 16 year old, gay, black man had the balls to write and perform this song - back in the 30's!! What a person he must have been. Awesome. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Thank you Lawson.
Thank you GT. In retrospect, I am absolutely certain that Patrick felt lucky to be a part of this forum. You guys made this the pre-eminent place on the internet for Jazz Guitar lovers to enjoy. Originally Posted by Greentone
GT, if you get the chance, try a floater 165. I always questioned "why".. Why make a Herb Ellis 165 with a floater on it? Why put a floater on a laminate guitar?
They made a unique guitar out of their own magnificent design. The extra body depth of the 165/175 makes having a floater 165 an excellent idea. Navigating around the volume knob placement is tricky but other than that, I cant be more pleased with this guitar. Thank you for your post GT. I appreciate it.
Lawson, Thanks for making that crystal clear bro. Believe it or not, My plan is to get a Wes L5. I don't need the extra pickup, and I have a Tal if I did. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Here's a funny story.. When I bought Patrick's L5 wes, He owned a CES as well. When I asked him why he was selling the WES, he said that he liked the CES better. A lot of people feel that way. Me, I can't see having a guitar with an extra pickup on it that I will never use.
Thanks my fellas..
Joe D
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Hey I've always wondered about that, and here's my take. I think the extra pickup, even if not used, changes the resonance of the guitar the L5ces seems to have a thickness of sound that maybe the Wes doesn't, the latter being maybe a tad more woody. Folks ask, why rout two holes in a carved top? But I think the solid wood still has a response, and maybe the bridge pickup, located near the bridge (duh) tosses a complicating dynamic into the response of the top, which in turn gets passed back up to the strings and shapes what the pickup "hears." Originally Posted by Max405
Then again, maybe it's just Gibson putting different pixie dust on different guitars!
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I am in the different camp. I have owned both. The CES sounds well iconic but the Wes even more so or at least the 5 Wesmo's I have had. Still have 3....well 2. Iffy about ever getting Rita back from Gibson.
I think Wes Montgomery got it right when it comes to L5's. I know most people here don't think so.
I am with Joe. Why have a pickup, 2 knobs, and a toggle that I will never use. I don't even know if the bridge pickup works on my 2 pu guitars.
I also had Gibson Crimson build me a custom single pu 175. Sounds better also than my stock 2 pu 175's.
I would like to get a single pu Tal too. Single pu looks better also IMO.
Actually I never heard a bad sounding L5. People have said that the Wesmo's are brighter. I have not found that to be the case. More sustain yes. You really got a winner with either basically. A matter of personal taste.
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I sold my dream guitar, a sunburst Wesmo, because it's tone was brighter. I regret selling a L5CES to obtain the Wes...it turned out that the sold '98 CES was the real dream
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Everyone has a preference. The bottom line, they are both L5's. And they are both the most desirable archtop guitars that has a name on the headstock WITHOUT a vowel at the end of it..
Vinny, you will get Rita back. By the way, you forgot about your L5p.. That is an L5 in every way bro. Remember the original L5's came out waaayy before pickups were ever invented.
JD
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Lawson
You are absolutely right, I have a 2013
L5CES, & a 2014 Wesmo , there is a noticeable
difference between them, most definitely the
L5CES has a fuller , better dark tone even just
employing the neck pickup alone. The Wesmo
is slightly brighter. Both tried through a variety
of amps SS and Tube.
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Lawson Joe lives in a huge home. He has decided to scale down to a smaller home. He is not pulling any triggers till he relocates. Yes my meaning was taken wrong. Me and Joe talk weekly about his future L5. Business and family first.
When it takes 2 hours to mow your lawn with a John Deere it takes away your guitar time.
It takes me 15 minutes to mow my lawn in my little dump.
Joe is going from the DeNisco Estate to Joe's house. It gets hard to maintain a huge home as we get older. Just dusting your house can be a all day job.
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Vinny I was just kidding around. I didn't intend that as a barb at all, I just can't resist a chuckle moment. I know you and Joe are very close friends. I just couldn't resist the combination of the sale of a house preceding the purchase of an L5. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
I know what you mean about big houses. I live with 3 horses, 2 cats and 1 wife on 10.5 acres with about a 4200 square foot home, and I mow about 5-6 acres or so of Kentucky "rolling" ground with limestone outcroppings, using a 24" non-self-propelled push mower! Spread over 3-4 days, mowing all that takes about 8-10 hours. Horses get hayed every morning, grained every evening, exercised and ridden once a week. General barn work, maybe another 2 hours a week.
But we do enjoy it, and feel the physical activity will as likely save us as kill us.
But yeah, downsizing sometimes feels like a great concept too!
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Lawson, I live with 1 wife and 2 cats (You and I are on many of the same pages of life, my friend) in two homes (one in the City and one at the beach). The combined square footage of both homes is about 3800 square feet, but the combined lots of both homes is only about 7000 square feet (my homes are located in two of the most expensive zip codes in the USA, land values are astronomical). I have not mowed a lawn in years (both homes are set up with low maintenance yards that are quite small in any case) . More time to practice, practice, practice..... Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Vinny,
Just to say that when I bought my L5CES, ( Natural Finish) I did an
A/B test with a Natural Finish Wesmo, and two S/B Wesmos.
The L5CES came out on top as far as tone was concerned, the Wes
in the natural finish came close. But I agree with Lawson's opinion
with the extra mass that the second pickup contributes to the tone.
Thank you for pointing out the shortcomings of an L5/Wesmo which
has been painted black but I am aware of them.
Although it was not a prime consideration, the Black Wesmo Custom
Crimson , was at a far lower figure to purchase than any other L5.
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I must add.. Originally Posted by silverfoxx
The Black L5 Wes that I owned had the best neck that I ever played in all my days SF. And it was beautiful. Perfect in every way. The only reason I don't have it anymore, is the black finish was about to put this absolute neat freak into a mental institution. I put micro scratches on it when I was cleaning it! But it was a class act for sure. I admire a player who can enjoy a black guitar. Nothing is classier.
Joe D
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I've owned 2 black L5 Wes'. Joe's 2014 and a 2010. Both were stellar. I had no intention of ever selling Joe's. When the Apple executive came to pick up the DAQ he came with far more than the $40k. He tried to buy all my guitars. He managed to negotiate another 4 out of me including Blacky. I am still on the prowl to replace Blacky.
Black L5's ooze class. They are also a grand cheaper then VSB new.
2 pickup L5's may sound darker to some folks but for me I would not want my L5's to sound darker than they sound right now. My 175's are very dark sounding and far cheaper too. I prefer the added sustain of my Wes'.
A 2 pu L5 makes perfect sense if you are into a lot of different tones. I am not. I have my sound and that's it.
In fact I try and get close to the same tone out of everything. It's ridiculous that I have so many guitars. 2 L5's is all I really need and 1 would just be for backup. Like Marco says the rest is art pieces.
Black L5's are extremely rare as they are hiding something. That doesn't make them inferior. The 2 I had were fabulous both in sound and playability. Not to mention the finish was like black glass. High maintenance though. 1 fingerprint really shows. Black, white, and gold though looks gorgeous.
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Personally, I love a black guitar. One of the "I wish I bought that one" guitars was a mid 70's Black L-5C. The guitar was at the San Francisco Guitar Center. It had a chrome D'Armond 1100 with a neck rod and a non original case. It had some belt buckle rash on the back. But it sounded amazing. They wanted $4500 plus tax (almost 5 grand altogether) and I passed (This was around 2002 or 2003). Gibson did build some amazing guitars in the 70's to be sure. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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For sure, that's a bad connection the git makers have unwillingly had attached to dark colored (not transparent) models. And in some cases it's true, but the sound "should" be what wins the day. Black is a sort of "black tie" finish to me, and I couldn't be happier with my few black guitars. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
I've seen a couple of LP customs that were re-finished and the wood under the black finish was spectacular so maybe the reputation isn't as deserved as it is, and it's funny that nobody bitches at sunburst necks that hide all sorts of joints.Last edited by GNAPPI; 09-03-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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Both black L5's I owned had beautiful flame when you looked inside the F- holes. I was like WTF. I knew a cat (deceased) that had a beautiful black beauty. He decided to strip it and refinish it natural. Frank Ford tried to talk him out of it to no avail. They stripped the top only to reveal a big knot and a ton of wood putty on the top. Needless to say it went back to black.
They actually need to do a lot more detail on a black guitar as black will show every small imperfection. The recurve must also be absolutely perfect.
When Matt Cushman was building me a guitar he had to start over because the rim cracked. He says it just sometimes happens and their is nothing to prevent it. Wood is just unpredictable.
When you pull out a black L5 people take notice. More so than a blonde or VSB.
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Hey Joe,
Beautiful playing of Lush Life. Is that written out in a Joe pass transcription book?
I liked the sound of the JS better than the 165.
The JS is essentially a D'A made by Gibson, and nothing can beat an acoustic D'A.
I don't know what guitar JP used on the Virtuoso LPs, but it doesn't sound close to the JS (D'A).
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