The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Anyone have a rundown on all the various Alnico numbered magnets, and their tonal characteristics vis a vis jazz? It seems jazz players use 2 and 5, is that correct?

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  3. #2

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    I have pickups from Pete Biltoft - they have interchangeable magnets, Alnico 2, 3, 4, and 5, and ceramic. With Alnico the higher the number the better the pickup's high frequency response (it's a slight difference but still very noticeable), and ceramic is the brightest of all. I use Alnico 2 for the neck pickup and Alnico 5 for the bridge pickup. In my guitar the ceramic is just over the line into stridency.

  4. #3

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    I had a little dustup with Patrick a couple of years ago about Alnicos. His basic premise was that there was very little difference among the different magnets, and any perceived difference was colored by marketing hype. Wish he were around to explain further.

    Everything I have read says that Alnico 2's have lower output and are mellower, therefore more appropriate for jazz. That's what I have in my Tele in the neck position.

    However, I have never found any empiric analysis of the different magnets--frequency response curves, etc.--to back this up, and I did quite a bit of research trying to come back at Patrick with an argument.

    If anyone has come across a good description of the different characteristics of the magnets, I'd love to see it.

    BTW, visiting Pete Bilcroft's website, I see that his family was from Beaver Crossing, NE, just west of Lincoln. My fiancee's daughter and son-in-law just moved into a house in Beaver Crossing, a tiny farming community. Pretty area if you like farms and prairie.

  5. #4

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    I think things are further complicated by whether the pup uses a bar magnet or magnetic polepieces. I understand the higher the number, the more powerful the magnetic properties, hotter = brighter tonewise.

    My stock tele single coils and Sorrento w/mini humbuckers both use alnico II magnets, while my strat came stock with ceramic pups.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 06-17-2017 at 02:42 AM.

  6. #5

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    The language surrounding these magnets can be confusing and misleading. I came across one self-declared expert saying that Alnico 8 had a fat bass and warm mids, making it ideal for jazz, yet judging by the oft-mentioned fact that the higher the number the hotter the pickup, I'd imagine 8 as being far too hot for classic jazz. Perhaps he was thinking fusion.

    The reason in asking about all this is my contemplation of changing the neck pickup on my Black Beauty. Front runners include a Classic 57 (Alnico 2), or a single-coil in a humbucker housing (Alnico 3, perhaps).

  7. #6

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    I've read in a few places that alnico 3 is actually a weaker magnet type than alnico 2. And also that alnico 3 tends to have a bit more of the upper frequency zing or chime than 2. Fairly unscientific, but I do have two guitars, both the same model, one with a 7K-ish A3 neck humbucker, the other with a 7K-ish A2 neck 'bucker. And my experience would tend to bear what I've read out - the A2 guitar is a bit stronger in the mids, and a touch smoother-sounding maybe. The A3 just a bit more open and chime-y, and with a touch less mids emphasis. Both nice though, and really quite similar overall, perhaps not surprisingly.

  8. #7

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    Interesting, Meggy. The mention of chimey chimes with my liking for single-coil neck pickups for classic jazz. Decisions, decisions - based on half-understood science and a big doze of subjectivity.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Interesting, Meggy. The mention of chimey chimes with my liking for single-coil neck pickups for classic jazz. Decisions, decisions - based on half-understood science and a big doze of subjectivity.
    I could add that I had a set made for my recently acquired Ibanez AS103 semi-acoustic, that has a low-wind i.e. 6.7K-ish alnico 3 bucker in the neck, seeking to really bring out the woody, acoustic aspect of the guitar's tone. I guess it does work also - it's a very articulate kind of tone. But I also have found myself wanting to adjust the pickup a bit closer to the strings than I normally would - a matter of taste of course, but I think low wind A3 could be viewed as a bit under-powered and thin in tone, and the closer pickup position does help counter this for me. I think if I was trying again with the pickups on that guitar, I might go for something at least 7K, and probably A2, as it's quite a bright-sounding guitar acoustically. The guitar itself does have a huge influence on tone of course. And just my view, but I think if what you really like is a single coil kind of tone, get something single coil, like a hum-size P90 or whatever. Just adding this for what it may be worth anyhow.

  10. #9

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    I am pretty unknowledgeable about things like pickup characteristics.

    Interesting observation though--I have a Gibson ES-135 with Gibson Classic 57's (Alnico 2) and a Peerless Sunset with Epiphone Classic 57's (Alnico 5). The ES-135 has higher output and is more articulate and brighter in the neck position, while the Sunset is mellower and (for want of a better word) muddier. (I realize sound depends on a lot of things like strings, pickup height, caps, etc., but I'm just comparing one factory setup to the other with similar strings.)

    Not that I dislike the Sunset tone at all, in fact it is great for a nice 50's or even a 70's Benson jazz tone. To get that tone on the Gibson, I have to dial down the tone a bit.

    I also replaced the stock Epi Classic 57 pickups on my Epi JP with Stew Mac Parsons St. Alnico 2 HB's, again with the same effect on output and tone--a tad brighter, more articulate, wider range of sounds.

  11. #10

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    "For a sweeter and cleaner tone with no loss of highs" Bill Lawrence recommended lowering the pickup and raising the polepieces. I suspect a little trial and error, combined with a little patience (and heavier, perhaps flat/or/half-round strings) may yield a sweet spot (in a couple of senses - sonic and spatial) that will tide you over until you make an ultimate decision. Caveat - manufacturers rarely make the mounting screws long enough on humbuckers. I've spent many an unhappy hours fishing the blessed things from the depths. The sacrifices we make for Art! Good luck!

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by robertm2000
    I use Alnico 2 for the neck pickup and Alnico 5 for the bridge pickup. In my guitar the ceramic is just over the line into stridency.
    That's interesting. Most people do the opposite, 2 to warm up the bridge, and 5 to bring out the clarity in the neck.

    Those Biltoft's with the swappable magnets are the PERFECT way to compare these things.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    I came across one self-declared expert saying that Alnico 8 had a fat bass and warm mids, making it ideal for jazz
    Even though the description sounds more and less accurate, as a rule of thumb, the A8 mag is too powerful to be used in the neck position. There are much more suitable mags for the neck position in a HB, and I'm assuming you're looking for a PAF-like p'up for your recently-acquired BB, isn't it?

    Well, depending on the degree of articulation, the most suitable candidates are A2, A3 and A4. I don't like the inherent tone-footprint produced by the A5 mag. It's been used in all the cheapest asian p'ups because it produces a lot of output, it's the cheapest to produce and buy in bulk and it's the most forgiving to less-than-optimal winding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Front runners include a Classic 57 (Alnico 2), or a single-coil in a humbucker housing (Alnico 3, perhaps).
    If you already have the p'up, I'd suggest to put an A3 into that '57 Classic. I personally don't like'em, but this mod has worked quite well for several people I know and respect, hence the suggestion.

    And, if you need magnets, PM me. I have'em all.

    HTH,

  14. #13

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    Yes, the neck pup of the BB. I like a bit of spank (so to speak) found in single-coil pups, and was therefore also contemplating the Harmonic Design Z-90, which I've had before for an Ibanez PM2 (a guitar I no longer have), which is a large single-coil in a humbucker housing. I don't know what magnet they put in those Gibson Type Pickups Page - scroll down for the Z-90.

  15. #14

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    rob, there are many many choices these days for a humbucker sized p-90 pickup... (harmonic designs would probably not be my go to at this point for a vintage/jazzy pickup)...here's a good comparison on a few...(note the article is 2013, so there are even more choices in 2017!!!)

    Humbucker-Sized P-90 Review Roundup | Premier Guitar

    (just be aware that a single coil pickup is going to bring hum into the equation)


    the type of magnet used is just one tiny part of the whole picture...the metallic composition of the strings you are using, and the positioning and tweaking of the pickup height (and polepiece height) are just as important

    the type of magnets in guitar pickups always followed whatever was available cheaply....not tone mojo....same with speakers...

    it's only fairly recently that the nuances have come to light..

    the move to ferrite/ceramic mags in the mid 60's was about the price of alnico skyrocketing...not tone!

    having said all that, i'd change out the strings and tweak the pickups before i thought of any replacing..chances are you will be able to get to "your" tone regardless...never discount the power of the player!!! haha

    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 06-17-2017 at 04:00 PM.

  16. #15

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    Neatomic - many thanks, as usual, for your input. That review was very interesting. I found myself going to Lindy Fralin's website, and am now interested in the Pure PAFs there.

    Pepe - yes, flatwounds. I'm going to start with tapewound strings from La Bella, as black strings on a black guitar just have to be tried...but my favourite flats are by Thomastik, so I'll try them if the tapes don't work out. Is the A3-modded '57 Classic your own modification?

    Feet - I'm trying to decipher your post. You mean you prefer Alnico 4? What make do you have?

  17. #16

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    fralin's a cut above...(longtime) lone wolf very seriously involved in all aspects of tone..and getting to it...(like elferink)

    tell him what you are looking for..and send him a clip..he'll be interested

    cheers

  18. #17

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    All I know is that Gibson 57 classics and Duncan Seth Lover uses A2 magnets. No reason for me to further investigate.

  19. #18

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    As an electrical engineer it seems odd to me to talk about magnet types as having different tones. The tone is the result of the integrated design, string materials, and adjustments. The magnet's just part of that equation. If you have a pickup designed around a certain material and substitute something else, you're changing the strength and shape of the magnetic field. That's the source of the change in tone.

  20. #19

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    A while ago I asked Lindy Fralin for a pickup with a "Fat Wes tone". He suggested: "Either a P-92 with 8500 turns or a regular humbucker with A3 mag wound to 8.2".
    I opted for the regular humbucker with A3 magnets wound to 8.2 Kohms. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to tell it apart from a Pure PAF with A2 magnets wound to the typical 7.8Kohms (which I have in another guitar) especially if compensatory EQ tweaking were done.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    I am pretty unknowledgeable about things like pickup characteristics.

    Interesting observation though--I have a Gibson ES-135 with Gibson Classic 57's (Alnico 2) and a Peerless Sunset with Epiphone Classic 57's (Alnico 5). The ES-135 has higher output and is more articulate and brighter in the neck position, while the Sunset is mellower and (for want of a better word) muddier. (I realize sound depends on a lot of things like strings, pickup height, caps, etc., but I'm just comparing one factory setup to the other with similar strings.)

    Not that I dislike the Sunset tone at all, in fact it is great for a nice 50's or even a 70's Benson jazz tone. To get that tone on the Gibson, I have to dial down the tone a bit.

    I also replaced the stock Epi Classic 57 pickups on my Epi JP with Stew Mac Parsons St. Alnico 2 HB's, again with the same effect on output and tone--a tad brighter, more articulate, wider range of sounds.
    I had once a LP Std where all the pickups sounded muddy. Then I realised it had 300ohm potentiometres. Changed them to 500 and A LOT OF MORE everything stated to be heard.

    Alnico type is only a part of the pickup, just like yhe DC or Henries etc. Some manufacturers use degaussed mags to get a bit untypical results with their mags.

    A2 is very often used in the neck although it gets often muddy. No wonder that Gibson's most praised new humbuckers, the MHS's have A4's in them.

    If You start swapping, Lt Pepe is a great resource of mags in Europe. And remember to let the magnet 'get acclimated' in Your pu and guitar for days or even weaks before final judgement.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak
    I did and I didn't, that's why I asked you.

    What p'up exactly are you talking about? Not a humbucker, right?
    IDK about all his pups, but the P90s and CCs specifically, because those are the ones I was looking at...

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey02
    All I know is that Gibson 57 classics and Duncan Seth Lover uses A2 magnets. No reason for me to further investigate.
    Hard to argue with that! Ditto my PRS DGTs (which were copied PAFs), which are the greatest PAFs I have yet heard/owned. So much so that, while I'll probably sell the PRS they are in someday, I won't sell the DGT pickups- I'll save them for some future 335 or something...

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    As an electrical engineer it seems odd to me to talk about magnet types as having different tones. The tone is the result of the integrated design, string materials, and adjustments. The magnet's just part of that equation. If you have a pickup designed around a certain material and substitute something else, you're changing the strength and shape of the magnetic field. That's the source of the change in tone.
    Well, of course. BUT: all else being equal, the different magnet types DO have slightly different tonal characteristics.

    And before someone says "yes, but all else is not equal".... come on, guys. We're on a GUITAR forum in a GEAR subforum. We want to talk about these things. Pete Biltoft's swappable mags are a perfect example of "all else being equal." I can't tell you how many guys over on Seymour Duncan forums swap mags- especially in humbuckers- to tailor for the tone they want.
    Last edited by ruger9; 06-17-2017 at 11:15 PM.

  25. #24

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    Bill Lawrence had a lot of interesting things to say about pickups as well as magnet types. This is a good link. Bill Lawrence Website

    In general, I prefer alnico 5 in semi hollow guitars and alnico 2 or 4 in solid bodies. It depends on the wood. Brighter woods like ash and maple need darker sounding magnets like alnico 2 IMHO.

    In my Teles, I'm very fond of Fender Nocaster pickups. They use alnico 3 magnets. It's all a matter of taste.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Is the A3-modded '57 Classic your own modification?
    Rob, I've been moonlighting as a guitar tech for over fifteen years.

    I also deal bar magnets for HB p'ups. Let's say that I've tried pretty close to every single possible mag swap known to mankind. After you first hundred mag swaps, you tend to have rough ideas of what mag/p'up combos would work "better" in different circumstances and different instruments and music styles.

    Make that over ten times over and that's where I find myself now.

    I'm a classical guitar, conservatory trained player as well, so I loved everything you played from the Spanish authors and I particularly appreciated the Scottish music from past centuries played on past centuries instruments. Hat off, Rob!

    BTW, I haven't been able to find any Jazz recordings on your Soundcloud account, so I don't have anything to go on about how you play, just that you tube sample, which wasn't that helpful.

    OTOH, I've heard some your live Blues recordings... most of them songs I've played with many groups, so that was really helpful to have a gist of you as an electric player.

    Was a telecaster you've used?