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Ah, alas, I think that guitar is a debauched Johnny Smith. Mind you, I am sure it's a heck of a jazz guitar.
Look at the fretboard extension--no stinger. The Super-V has a stinger, just like the L-5. The Johnny Smith does not.
Sure looks like a Johnny Smith guitar that has been altered to resemble a L-5CES (50s-era) guitar...in some details. It probably functions as such.
The price reflects the modifications. The price seems in line for a full-size, Gibson carved-body archtop from the late-60s.
I think players should be viewing the guitar as such, rather than as a "Johnny Smith," per se. (Only thing that is hinky: why no headstock photo? Doesn't the seller figure that buyers want to see that? I sure do.)Last edited by Greentone; 05-25-2017 at 08:10 AM.
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05-25-2017 08:08 AM
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Steve Swan Guitars has a mint 1970 JS in cherry sunburst if anyone is looking. He is in my hood if you want me to give it a thorough go over.
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GT, (or should I say, eagle eye..)
That was a great spot. I didn't see that.
JD
Originally Posted by Greentone
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Bro, You should buy the Mint Cherry Burst. They are just "different" enough to be a welcome piece in your collection. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
L, the other enabler.
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I also messaged them last night. I just got a message saying that they measured the scale length at 25 1/2" (which it could appear to be if it's a JS on which the bridge is placed incorrectly) and a body depth of 3". I was afraid to try delving into the bracing pattern and without proper tools nut width seemed like a gamble too. Can't wait to hear what you find out though. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
Last edited by ThatRhythmMan; 05-25-2017 at 11:09 AM.
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He told me the same scale length. I told him that the JS is a little shorter and should have a 1 3/4" nut. He said the nut is exactly 1 11/16" like his Les Paul. He checked the bracing and said it is x-braced.
WTF. Is it not a real Gibson? Is it a LeGrande in JS clothing?
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Other than a probable refin, the guitar appears to me exactly as advertised. I don't think it's a Legrand - the back is way too plain. I bet it sounds great. I still remember playing a great JS years ago that had a CC installed. It was so well done, it may have been a factory special order. This one is clearly the result of some mad science, IMO. Originally Posted by Greentone
Hey, if anyone wants to restore it, I'd be happy to supply a JS top!
Last edited by Hammertone; 05-25-2017 at 12:45 PM.
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The seller is a guitarist. He has a 1954 LP, which suggests he has some sophistication but doesn't guarantee that. So if I had to bet, he probably got the scale length right. And he's adamant about the nut width. He could be wrong about both.
I don't see a SN stamped on the headstock. Maybe Gibson didn't always do that.
The finish looks very nicely done. I don't know if it's original since it looks new.
I am concerned about how the bracing might have been compromised by the bridge pickup routing.
It is a very cool guitar regardless.
The seller said he's not interested in shipping and will only leave it up for sale a few more days.
I'm curious about the guitar but not enough to fly to LA and check it out.
Originally Posted by Hammertone
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One additional point. Compare the spacing between the bridge pickup and the bridge on the "Johnny Smith" and the Super-V pictured above. It looks correct (for a 25-1/2" scale guitar) in the Super-V picture. Using that as a guide, the smaller spacing on the JS suggests a shorter scale length, given the relative spacing of everything else.
I'm betting that although the guitar was reported as a 25-1/2" scale, the pictured JS is actually a 25" scale guitar, and is truly a Johnny Smith that has had CES/P90 surgery performed.
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I can't imagine a X braced top with the two PU's not interfering with the bracing. But i'm not a guitar builder so there might be ways i can't imagine???? Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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In the 1960's Gibson did all kinds of special orders. The Super V was not yet a reality. It is possible that this was a custom ordered JS with L-5 scale and nut and two built in PUPs.
And it is also possible that the seller is measuring wrong and the guitar has been butchered. The seller wants a face to face deal. With a guitar like this, any buyer who does not do a face to face deal is, IMO, taking an unadvisable risk.
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It would be interesting the run the serial number by Gibson and see if they now what it was originally Originally Posted by helios
Smart thinking! L5 sized body with a Super 400 neck = Super V (perhaps at one time at least).
Only thing is a Super V would have a humbucker sized pickup routing which would be wider than a P90 routing. Very puzzling!
Super V:
There is also the possibility of a custom order Johnny smith with 2 P-90s or a Super V with P-90s that someone stuck a Johnny Smith tailpiece on.
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Super V has very different f-holes.
Not a Super V.
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I agree. It is NOT a Super-V. (1) no stinger. (2) wrong f-holes. (3) never seen a Super-V with the late-60s "guitar pick" sunburst.
Gibson would have done this work on a Johnny Smith as a custom order for somebody who asked and paid for it. They would have grimaced at the K'zoo factory while doing it, but "it's a business."
I still think it's a 25" scale guitar. I bet that it's a really nice jazz box.
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I've never heard it called that, but it's a perfect description... and I have always hated that kind of burst. It almost looks like the finisher was just too lazy that day to take the time and effort to "get it right." (I realize this is most likely not the case LOL) Originally Posted by Greentone
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I don't know this, for sure, and there are more knowledgeable Gibson folks on this forum than me, but I suspect that the 60s burst was a supply-demand thing.
So many electric and acoustic guitars were being shipped by the big 4 in the period from 1955-1970, that production economies had to be developed. A shaded, sunburst finish is not an easy thing to do. If you have the woods for it, a natural finish is MUCH easier to pull off. The subtly graduated sunburst takes a fine hand with the spray gun and a knowledge beforehand of dyes. I have watched experts do sunbursts that I could NEVER accomplish.
In the 60s the demand for the ES model guitars peaked in 1967. Lots of these were cherry guitars, but thousands of sunbursts were sold. A fairly perfunctory sunburst--"the guitar pick"--evolved. I suspect this was necessary to get the guitars out the door to meet demand.
Even though more time could be spent "coddling" the L-5, Super-400, Barney Kessel, and Johnny Smith series of guitars (they sold for a great deal more money and margins were higher), by this time the Gibson "look" of the sunburst had become fixed by what people saw on the more ubiquitous ES- guitars and the J- series flattops. So, the "guitar pick" sunburst was on...at least for awhile.
Just my hunch, though.
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the 'pick' burst appeared around '75 ish and only lasted for a few years.
I believe our own Joe D's Johnny Smith has a pick burst.
spraying a burst takes some skill as GT notes, but overall, making a guitar w/a natural finish takes more time as glue joints need to be more precise. sunburst finishes hide imperfections in wood grain and sloppy glue joints, etc...
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regarding the modified guitar pictured earlier in the thread, it's possible that it's long scale as Gibson did custom work on request as SS noted.
I remember back in the day Mandolin Brothers was selling an original '61 L-5CES w/a shorter scale Johnny Smith neck and split blocks owned by Quentin Warren, Jimmy Smith's guitarist.
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w'moon,
I agree about the need to get the pre-finish work right on a guitar destined for a natural finish. However, I can spray a pro-quality natural finish and can't do a pro-quality sunburst.
OTOH, the guitar pick finish appeared considerably earlier than '75. Here is a 1969 Gibson ES-335. It has a perfect example of that finish. I used to be in a band with a guy who played a '68 335 with the same finish:
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Yes Wintermoon, Mine has it. And I don't really like it that much but I sometimes sit and wonder how the heck did they get this paintjob so perfectly unlikeable?? Originally Posted by wintermoon
JD
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Looks like someone bought the P-90 equipped JS. No longer on Reverb.
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Evolution (sorry about the hijack):
1959 ES-335:
1967 ES-335:
Last edited by Greentone; 05-26-2017 at 12:41 PM.
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The P90 JS was a reasonably priced carved body Gibson archtop.
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yeah GT,
I was referring to high end models like the L-5, Super 400, Smith etc.
the yellow/black pick burst was applied on those in the middle 70's
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Agreed. My hypothesis was that the guitar pick finish became so universally recognized on Gibson guitars in the 60s (mid-line guitars) that it migrated up. You are correct that the migration upward affected the Norlin-era guitars.
Because by the time I was in a position to be able to walk into a store and lay money down for an archtop it was _that_ era, I became very much attached to the L-5, Super 400, etc. guitars of the 70s.
(You know, though, I recall seeing Sly and the Family Stone in the late 60s. Freddie Stone was playing a Byrdland that I believe had a "pick" sunburst on it. When the band would dance around on "Dance to the Music" you could really see this, very pronounced, on the back of the guitar.)
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