Which '65 Princeton Reverb?

**JMoto** · 05-22-2017, 11:33 PM

I went to the local shop today intent on buying a Henriksen 310. I didn't like it... very surprised.

They did have a ton of amps in stock, among them, 4 different Princeton Reverbs. I tried them all but didn't like the Black & Blue (seemed boomy) or the '68 (breaks up easy).

I did like the Standard '65 as well as the LE Knotty Pine. I guess my question, not being super well versed, is that, since I thought they were pretty close and liked them both; run on sentence, is the LE worth the extra $400 to us all because it's a 12" and I think it's purty?! Let me stress I'm not so great yet and was the only guitar player there so no one could demo them for me, just a sound guy and a repair guy there nodding.

I really liked both. Not any used Knotty Pines around but lots of standards for ~$800. I'd get a Milkman but don't want to save up the extra 1k right now! There is also a used Fudge Brownie version on my local Craigslist but I think that's more like the black/blue which I didn't love as much.

I'd love any experiences btw the two. Not many online reviews of the LE and they don't compare them to the standard, just demos. I can go back next week and play them again (assuming it hasn't sold yet).

**JMoto** · 05-22-2017, 11:36 PM

I was also surprised they both get pretty quiet! I was assuming I'd need to get a Mesa Cab Clone to use headphones in my city living but these might be fine volumes!

**Stringswinger** · 05-23-2017, 01:20 AM

I would not pay extra for the LE. A run of the mill 65 Princeton Reverb reissue is a fine amp and you can tweak it to your liking.

I had one and found that the stock speaker farted out with a carved archtop so I replaced the speaker with a Weber 10F150 (50 watts, light Dope). I also changed the tubes to JJ's (more bass response) and went to solid state rectification. Even with all of that, I still found it a tad bright so I sold it and went vintage (much warmer tone). I was thinking about changing the baffle and going with a 12 inch speaker (in preparation for that I changed the output transformer to an Allen amps TO-20 which is way better than the cheap Chinese made transformer that Fender uses).

Save your dollars to tweak it to your taste. A black tolex cabinet will hold up very well over the years.

**JMoto** · 05-23-2017, 01:36 AM

That tech speak went way over my head, lol!
Good to know though, thanks Stringswinger.

**docbop** · 05-23-2017, 02:45 AM

To me all the Princeton reissues are pretty much the same. I got a FSR Tweed Princeton with a 12" a few months ago and other than the 12" same as other RI Princeton's I tried. Fender plays with the cosmetics to try and generate sales. You move to the Deluxe Reverb reissue and there is a difference in the 65 RI and 68 RI in the first channel.

**pauln** · 05-23-2017, 03:04 AM

May not be timely, but for what it's worth, here is my Princeton story...

The standard black '65 reissue...

Really nice, great reverb, the "old circuit" for vibrato that varies bias rather than signal level (I think that's right) sounds nicer than the current one used in the other reissues. And vibrato is available without needing a foot switch. I use mine for jazz so I set both tone controls all the way down and just turn it up - beautiful mid-range tone for jazz with a little "thump".

But, on some forums there were many people noticing a "buzz" when playing around the low F, F# G part of the low E string. Of course I immediately increased the bass and volume and found it to be present on mine as well. Apparently this was a "design flaw" in the mounting of the baffle to the cabinet. It was quickly noticed that the buzzing was happening at the top of the baffle and it could be completely suppressed by pressing firmly on it... more investigations by forum folks found what seemed to be the problem.

In all the old amps Fender mounted the baffles from either the left and right sides or the top and bottom sides - so only at opposing sides in order to allow the baffle board to flex. For some reason in the Princeton 65 the baffle board was mounted on three sides - the left, right, and bottom, and somehow the mechanical impedance was geometrically deformed and caused an audible buzz where the vibration seemed to want to manifest at the top of the baffle.

In the forums, people began to investigate ways to fix this, working from the observation that some pressure on the top of the baffle made the buzz disappear. One of the first solutions was to use a length of angle iron as a bracket to secure the baffle top to the chassis. This worked fine except someone noticed from the pictures that the bias adjustment access hole had been covered.

My solution was very simple - a foot long strip of craft wood about 1/8 inch thick pressed in between the top of the baffle and the chassis - a very tight fit. Once confirmed it worked, I pushed it out a little from behind and colored the facing edge with a black felt tip marker, then pressed it back into place... invisible, buzz inaudible.

I have no idea if Fender ever addressed this issue or how in later production.

**John A.** · 05-23-2017, 11:55 AM

If we're talking "which do you subjectively prefer" rather than "which do you think I should get", I vote for the standard because I'm one of those weird guys who likes a PR with 10" speaker just fine the way it is. Heck, I even like it with a Jensen reissue (my '78 has a modern C10Q). I do think the the pine looks really nice, though, and if mine were not made of MDF, I'd be tempted to remove the tolex.

John

**Greentone** · 05-23-2017, 12:25 PM

Baffles are a design area that Fender altered over time. The Tweed and Brown era amps had baffles made of plywood that were screwed to the cabinet on two sides. These baffles flex relatively easily. Blackface and later amps have MDF (medium density fiberboard) baffles that are glued into the cabinets (at least by the 70s they are). These are quite stiff and don't "buzz." The smaller amps, like the Princeton, didn't get the glue treatment, and may have yet used plywood through the 60s.

If you can afford one, a 60s Princeton Reverb in good repair is the most desirable amp, followed by a 70s silverface.

**JMoto** · 05-23-2017, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

If you can afford one, a 60s Princeton Reverb in good repair is the most desirable amp, followed by a 70s silverface.

All the 60's Blackfaces I'd be interested in (Reverb/Guitar Center/Gbase) are all over 2k. At that price I'd be back to boutique instead. The knotty pine is my max price for a Princeton Reverb. I'm assuming I can't find a used one as they only made 100. (There is a used one on Reverb but it's broken and he's asking full retail!? Crazy)

**Stringswinger** · 05-23-2017, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Baffles are a design area that Fender altered over time. The Tweed and Brown era amps had baffles made of plywood that were screwed to the cabinet on two sides. These baffles flex relatively easily. Blackface and later amps have MDF (medium density fiberboard) baffles that are glued into the cabinets (at least by the 70s they are). These are quite stiff and don't "buzz." The smaller amps, like the Princeton, didn't get the glue treatment, and may have yet used plywood through the 60s.

If you can afford one, a 60s Princeton Reverb in good repair is the most desirable amp, followed by a 70s silverface.

By the late 70's, the Princetons got the glued baffle treatment and the cabinet material was changed to MDF.

My 1964 Princeton has a plywood baffle that is screwed in.

As far as Princeton Reverbs go, the best quality is the 60's Blackface and drip edge Silverface and their going street price reflects this. The 70's silverface is of lower quality, but are still better than the current reissues in both build quality and sound. And they are considerably more expensive than the reissues, though far less than their 60's counterparts. The problem with vintage amps is that they can need expensive repairs.

I think for a jazz guitarist who is not playing any venue other than a small coffee shop (or just playing at home), the 65 PRRI is a fine choice, and if bought new will have years of dependable service at a fair and reasonable price. Some (like myself) will find that it is a tad bright. Some (like myself) will find that the stock speaker does not float their boats. Some will have problems with the baffle (easily fixed). But overall, it is a fine choice for a small tube amp.

**omphalopsychos** · 05-23-2017, 01:36 PM

Get the standard and put in a Weber 10A150. It will sound as big and warm as the knotty pine but you'll save a ton of money. Also, while the pine looks nice, it probably won't last.

**JMoto** · 05-23-2017, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Some (like myself) will find that it is a tad bright. Some (like myself) will find that the stock speaker does not float their boats. Some will have problems with the baffle (easily fixed). But overall, it is a fine choice for a small tube amp.

I think the creamback in the pine model brings a bit more low end response and the wood might help as well.

**JMoto** · 05-23-2017, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by omphalopsychos

Get the standard and put in a Weber 10A150. It will sound as big and warm as the knotty pine but you'll save a ton of money. Also, while the pine looks nice, it probably won't last.

I'll look up that speaker, thanks!
The store salesman were telling me the wood wouldn't last either. Can anyone explain why? Is it going to crack or something like the used one on Reverb? I assumed that was knocked around. I'm extremely easy on my gear and it might not ever leave my place except to go to a buddies house. Or is it just going to get some small marks if I'm moving it around a lot. Not sure why the worry for it "not lasting" but would like to understand since I've not owned a "big" amp before.

**christianm77** · 05-23-2017, 01:52 PM

Get the standard one change the speaker

**Stringswinger** · 05-23-2017, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by JMoto

I think the creamback in the pine model brings a bit more low end response and the wood might help as well.

A 12 inch speaker will get more bass response. Lots of jazz guitarists put 12 inch speakers into Princetons.

Pine vs. Plywood? I do not think that will affect bass response though it will affect tone. Some like the sound of pine and in fact, the earliest Fender amps (Tweed and brownface) were made of pine cabinets. Untolexed wood is more "fragile" to the rigors of moving the amp around.

**Jabberwocky** · 05-23-2017, 03:06 PM

Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue. 40W. Swap the 12" speaker out for a C-Rex.

Check it out. You may like it more than the PRRI.

**JMoto** · 05-23-2017, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue. 40W. Swap the 12" speaker out for a C-Rex.

Check it out. You may like it more than the PRRI.

Sadly I need it to either just have a quiet option or attenuation so 40w (and the reviews saying having the volume at 2.5 is still too loud in a band setting!) is going to be more than my city living can accommodate!

It'll go on the list for the retirement house!

**Jabberwocky** · 05-23-2017, 03:36 PM

When fellas talk about that it is always about overdriven tones. If you are playing clean, a light hand in the guitar volume or the amp volume or both will take care of the loudness.

Too, you can always drop a 12AY or 12AT7 into V1 to reduce the gain.

Better to have more clean power on tap than little.

The PRRI is a nice little package no doubt but give the BDRI a whirl.

**vinlander** · 11-30-2019, 07:30 AM

I don't really miss a 12 inch in my PRRI at least not my archtops, both sound great through the 10 incher.
I actually swapped the stock Italian Jensen P10Q from my FSR for an Eminence Cannabis Rex 10 inch: less chime, more volume and later breaking.
I also have a GE JAN 5751 in V1

**ruger9** · 12-01-2019, 09:08 AM

Having owned a PRRI, with the stock 10" C10R and it's limitations, and having modded it with different speakers and additional filter caps and an "upgraded" transformer to help it with the flubby bass, I think a new speaker- and likely especially a 12"- is the best upgrade for this amp. My Knotty Pine with Alnico Cream arrives tomorrow (monday). I had been wanting another PRRI for a few years (sold the last one after I couldn't get what I wanted out of it, despite the mods), and when I saw the Knotty Pine (and heard it), I knew that it was the one (altho a 10" Gold sounds awesome too).

I've said for years- if all you want out of a PRRI is "reasonable" volume (home volume... not "bedroom, but not too loud) CLEAN tones, the stock PRRI is fine. But if you want anything else out of it... more clean volume, tighter bass, etc., it needs some work.

Jim Campilongo has a pretty tight bass on his recordings, but his PR's have either re-coned vintage C10N's in them, or Celestion Vintage 10s. He also uses a STOCK (including the speaker, I believe) 68' Custom PR (the new silver ones) on his last 2 records "Dream Dictionary" and "Live at Rockwood". But keep in mind: he runs them on 10, and controls everything with the guitar's volume knob. (and, of course, he's playing a tele, not an archtop)

And yes- the Knotty Pine is GORGEOUS. The most beautiful amp Fender has ever made, imo. I wouldn't drag it around to gigs, mine is for my own enjoyment only. And I'm willing to pay for that beauty, knowing it won't get destroyed because it's a home amp.

**deke** · 12-05-2019, 08:29 AM

Wood working is a hobby for me and this knotty pine they are selling is hardly at the pinnacle of good furniture making. Pine is a soft wood, new growth lacks tight grain, it is stained dark (to look more "lux" than pine I guess), the grain and figure is boring and not well matched. You get to see the ends of machine cut dovetails, but so what? It's not Ikea cheap, but it's closer to Pottery Barn - cheap "solid hardwood" stained and promoted as being of quality when it isn't. If this were were 100+ year old reclaimed pine or some kind of interesting figured hardwood like Mesa Boogie does once in a while, then maybe, but don't be suckered into this. FYI, I have a 1978 PR with a speaker upgrade and it sounds amazing and as good or better as a couple very high priced black faces I played. The reissues are close, but not all the way there.

**ruger9** · 12-05-2019, 09:59 AM

I've had my Knotty Pine for a few days now. I quite like it, and while it might not be "furniture grade"

, imo it is infinitely more beautiful than tolex. The Alnico Cream is very sweet. If I wanted it JUST for jazz tones, I'd probably put some kind of Greenback in it, but the Cream sounds wonderful, with a sweet top end.

Again- for me it's a home amp, I wouldn't buy the KP to drag around to gigs, it'll get dinged and scratched too easily. But it sure is pretty.