Eminence Cannabis Rex

**docdosco** · 08-02-2015, 03:37 PM

Ok, I've beat this speaker thing to death.

But, I am about to order a Cannabis Rex for a 60 watt tube amp. (my search for a D120F still goes on, but for a different amp).

I got some opinions on this before, but the C. Rex with tubes seems to offer a warm and clean sound without the shrill high end?

This is for a big fat archtop. Will the 50 watts handle it Ok?

Doc Dosco
Peerless Guitars

**Socalbill** · 08-02-2015, 05:14 PM

I'd say no, you need more headroom. I have the C. Rex in a Carvin Vintage 16 and for that amp and by my ear, its a good fit. Lots of headroom.
Bill

**jorgemg1984** · 08-02-2015, 05:37 PM

If you don't crank the amp you might get away with it.

As a side note I found the C Rex too muddy to use with an Archtop. Works great for overdriven blues sounds though.

**docdosco** · 08-02-2015, 05:45 PM

Thanks guys. Good to know. I want clean with lots and lots volume and headroom. Cheap price. (yeah right!)

Any other suggestions? I was hoping to get away with $75 like the C. Rex, rather than a Weber Cali or the like at over $200.

Doc Dosco

**docdosco** · 08-02-2015, 07:34 PM

Pignose made a 60 watt valve tube amp for a while (out of production now). Designed by one of the big shots from Ampeg. It is a great little tube amp. The EQ sucks, (treble is noisy) but I play flat, just the archtop and the tubes. It is really sweet, actually, with a nice spring reverb, 2 6L6 and 4 12AX7A tubes, however I am ready to try a better speaker. It comes with a Pignose speaker that I think is made by Jensen, much like the inexpensive stock Fender speakers. I put a Celestion in it once when I blew the stock speaker, but couldn't get it out of there fast enough. It was awful, shrill and tinny. I suspect it was probably a crunch speaker designed to break up, however it neither broke up nice, or sounded decent clean.

Therefore I just ordered a replacement from Pignose. It's not too bad a speaker though.

Now, I want to get something that handles the juice from the tubes better.

Doc

**vintagelove** · 08-02-2015, 08:33 PM

Give wgs speakers a try, they are great.

**jorgemg1984** · 08-02-2015, 11:27 PM

Maybe the WGS G12CS? Anyway lots of people here love the C Rex so you might like it too!

**MaxTwang** · 08-03-2015, 01:15 AM

I had an Eminence Tonker that I wish I hadn't sold, great speaker for big cleans. Really liked it in a Deluxe Reverb or with a Boogie. The Tonker Lite is tempting for the weight.

Have you thought about having Weber make you a hemp cone that can handle more power?

**docdosco** · 08-03-2015, 12:06 PM

Wow. Thanks everyone.

The C. Rex would sound good in the Champ 25 SE I just scooped up. Lots of headroom there. However, I don't know that I want to do much with that amp as it weighs a lot and I don't know that it will go on any gigs. They weren't thinking about light weight during the 90's at Fender. I got it because it is a tube /SS hybrid that sounds tits, and it was in cherry shape .......and cheap.

This WGS G12CS looks interesting with the higher wattage.

Weber has an Alnico with hemp:

http://www.tedweber.com/am12a ... called the Amsterdam 12. Smoke it or play it? I wonder what it sounds like for straight ahead jazz?

So many choices......

Doc Dosco

**docdosco** · 08-04-2015, 01:21 PM

I posted a some questions on the WGS Q & A forum. They haven't answered yet. The post is mainly repeats of some questions here, and I was a bit snarky I think (I didn't mean to be.... well, perhaps I am snarky sometimes, so what of it???)

These people have everything from the inexpensive guitar speaker up to a $250 Alnico. The 75 watt model might tend to handle a 60 watt tube amp cleanly better than a 50 watt C. Rex speaker (in theory). The big buck speakers look enticing, but I am just not ready to drop that much on a speaker sight unseen, sound, unheard.

Doc Dosco

**TedBPhx** · 08-04-2015, 02:03 PM

My 30 watt Peavey classic 30 has no problems driving a CRex into speaker breakup halfway up the volume knob on the clean channel. Would not call that a lot of headroom but I do love the sound before I get there.

**jorgemg1984** · 08-04-2015, 02:11 PM

Doc just to mention I never tried the WGS but, in theory, seems close to what you want..

**LtKojak** · 08-04-2015, 02:58 PM

I'd say a Celestion G12-65 will work wonders, power-wise, but specially tone-wise.

**Encinitastubes** · 08-04-2015, 04:28 PM

I would be careful not to put too much stock into these threads. Everyone has good intentions and provides accurate responses for themselves, but my experience is that my personal experiences rarely jibe with the responses when it comes to speakers. I have a C-Rex in my Gries 35 that sounds wonderful and articulate with my 175. I tried a WGS G12CS and got fizz at the top end. Unfortunately, I think you just have to experiment.

**docdosco** · 08-04-2015, 07:04 PM

These are all good suggestions, and I am mindful that everyone is commenting through the prism of their own experience (with their own particular gear). Any new speaker purchase is a bit of a crap shoot.... and one man's heavenly guitar sound can be another man's chalk on blackboard.

That being said, I am getting pointed to many different makes and models, and all of the different options are expanding my knowledge base and I appreciate the various opinions. The C. Rex does sound like a speaker I might find acceptable, but perhaps not in a 60 watt tube amp that really cranks. However the GWS might not give appreciably more headroom than that, even though it is labeled at 75 watts.

So, the search goes on and I am happily learning new information about guitar speakers that I never knew before.

I did pose some questions to the WGS Q & A forum, but my post is lost in the ether there it seems.

Oh well....

Cheers,

Doc Dosco

**hanktx** · 08-04-2015, 08:49 PM

I've contacted both Eminence and WGS directly and found them both to be very responsive to questions. They are also both good about making recommendations based on what you are looking for from your amp. Same with Weber. Not sure about their forums.

Re: speaker wattage, at least with modern speakers, they are generally rated more conservatively than their peak handling. It would be worth talking to either company to see which of their speakers will pair with your amp and sound.

If headroom is an issue, I would also look at the tubes. I don't know that specific circuit but a 12AY7 or 5751 in the right 12AX7 preamp slot will reduce gain/allow for more clean volume.

FWIW, I use (or have used) a C-Rex, Red White and Blue and a Legend with a number of different amps and archtops for "jazz" cleans. Worked for me. I've played my Eastman through a HR Deluxe with the WGS G12 and found it worked too. For comparison, I also have amps with Webers and a vintage Jensen. All different. One not necessarily better than the others. YMMV.

**boatheelmusic** · 08-04-2015, 09:02 PM

My ES175 sounds wonderful through a hot rod deluxe with Cannabis Rex.......

**kawa** · 08-05-2015, 12:35 AM

SOUNDCLIPS

Eminence Guitar Speaker Tone Guide - Classic British and American Guitar Tone | Eminence Speaker

**TheGrandWazoo** · 08-05-2015, 08:53 AM

I have a WGC 12C/S. It is a very good at rolling off the high end. The smooth cone and felt cap work very well in a bright sounding cabinet/combo. I would say its very similiar to a Jensen C12N but without the bright highs. I sold the amp I bought it for and might let it go if you're interested. I tried it in my Ampeg GVT 15-112 but the cabinet was too dark for it. That amp needs a brighter speaker.

**docdosco** · 08-05-2015, 12:37 PM

GrandWazoo,

Thanks for the offer. I am still in the research stage, but that does sound good. I like bright highs, but I worry that a really bright speaker in this tube amp may be too bright. The JBL Alnico is my fav speaker so far but the D120F or a copy of one by Weber (or any other company) would be too much I think, however I could be wrong. I just haven't experimented with hardly any speakers yet.

Doc Dosco

**docdosco** · 08-05-2015, 12:53 PM

hanktx,

Good to know. There are a finite number of possibilities, but in that pile of speaker possibilities sit dozens of ones I might be tempted to try. Your experience with all of the different speakers listed is encouraging. I doubt I would get an out and out bad speaker out of any discussed, but certainly one will be more suitable than the next for me and I just have to take a shot at finding that one. Also, some are half or one third the cost of the pricey Alnico models I really like. That is another consideration.

I think the tubes are OK for now. I did take out the cheap Chinese tubes and put in Mesa Boogie tubes way back when, (and I got Mojo tubes and some Russian tubes or another Fender tube amp) However any tube switch that helps the sound will be noted for future swaps.

I'll follow up with WGS. They did answer my questions briefly. I'll try to get more specific. The 75 watts at $75 is attractive.

kawa and boatheelmusic. Thanks for your input. I do have 3 amps to re-speaker, so I may end up with 3 different types of speaker by 3 different companies....

Doc

**TheGrandWazoo** · 08-05-2015, 01:37 PM

I learned a lesson the other day about swapping speakers that I'm always going to remember:

It doesn't need to be a newer fancy speaker. Sometimes, an older "un-popular" speaker might be what the amp needs.

My Ampeg GVT's stock speaker just wasn't doing it for me (Celestion 70/80) so I bought an older Jensen from the 60s... still didn't do it. I then put in a new fancy WGC speaker... still didn't do it. Finally I stuck in an on Utah "Fender Design" speaker from my '77 Twin and the amp just took off. The amp now has a more "present" sound, not too bright but let's the amp/pickups sparkle, baxandall tone circuit changes seem more noticable, and it still wont fart out at high volumes.

Who'd of thought a "poo-poo'd" cheap speaker from Utah/Pyle would be the speaker for this amp?

Moral: Just because it's a "high quality: speaker doesn't mean its the speaker for that particular amp.

**docdosco** · 08-06-2015, 12:50 AM

Mr Wazoo,

The speaker does need to match the amp. I guess that's why the cheap Pignose speaker actually sounds OK in the Pignose tube amp. And that was why I was so surprised that the expensive Celestion I tried sounded so dreadful. I saw it listed recently for $180 I think. It didn't sound like a $180 speaker to me.

I guess I'll bite the bullet soon and get started ordering speakers and experimenting with these amps I have. It would be nice to get one make or another of the speakers at wholesale. Then they could be sold at no real loss on Craig's List if they don't work out. However getting a speaker company to comp me a speaker at cost may not be in the cards. But.... one never knows until one asks. Too bad winter NAMM is so far off. That's a good place to wheel and deal for wholesale on products if not an outright endorsement deal (I've been a NAMM member for a dozen years).

BTW, why does the Alnico style speaker cost so much money? The magnet must be way expensive to make.

Doc Dosco

**hanktx** · 08-06-2015, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by docdosco

...BTW, why does the Alnico style speaker cost so much money? The magnet must be way expensive to make. Doc Dosco

The price difference is primarily driven by the cost of cobalt. Up to half of the global supply originates from one country (DR of Congo). Plus today, cobalt is used in significantly more industrial applications and products (batteries, paints et. al.) then when alnico speakers were the norm.

I would speculate that it may also be that alnico speakers can command a price premium because many believe them to be superior to ceramic or other types - something akin to the preference of lacquer over poly or tubes over solid state.

**docdosco** · 08-06-2015, 03:26 AM

Ah ha... thanks

I saw this on another forum. If true, it might explain how many of these speaker brands are able to a market so many different, yet the same, designs. Just an original housing with pick a part innards. Not that this is bad, but understanding the OEM world will show that many models and certain brands are not so far apart in quality and come from the same source. It's like the generic and name brands are made with a similar concept/design plan, only marketed and distributed by a different company label. A budget line costs half the name brand line and is just as well built.

Peerless, my guitar people, did this for years, making Epiphone and Gretsch archtops (and other brands) for Gibson and Fender. And when they struck out on their own they built the same basic guitars (same wood, models with Peerless names, with a few knob and headstock changes and were able to sell that noted Gretsch White Falcon type guitar for way less. Same quality, less than half the sell price without the major brand name on the headstock.

So check this out and share your thoughts:

Posted by StephaninMelb

"Aren't WGS Speakers OEM built by Eminence? Lots of the alternate secondary brands are surprisingly made by Eminence. It is one way to get one of their speakers at value pricing. Even Weber works with some of the same parts vendors and Eminence builds their bigger production runs. Truth is there aren't real speaker companies left with engineers and researchers. The bulk are reseller and reconer that worked out once you source a basket you can build a speaker with repair parts and slap your name on it. Sorry guys that is all it is. Thats why different speakers of the same family with different brand name sound very close. They are made with the same major parts from the same parts vendors. You can sort out the 1st and 2nd tier by which can provide detailed product spec sheets and those with limited performance data. The last category are primarily brand reseller and high-end reconers."

and

"Warehouse Guitar Speakers (WGS) are not a true speaker manufacturing company, rather they are a speaker parts assembler and distributor who utilise parts acquired from vendors that manufacture cones, spiders, voice coils, etc. This WGS methodology is limited to the same technical skill set used in the reconning industry. I know the differences confuse people, but there is a huge difference. It is similar to a mechanic buying parts to build a motor, but that doesn't make his organisation an engine company like Ford or even one of their component suppliers. There is a big differences between design, assembly and manufacturing!"

"WGS do not employ acoustics transducer engineers nor do they have in-house speaker design capability nor are they setup to do complex manufacturing. They are about "house brand" and distribution."

and lastly:

Eminence - Anthony Lucas

"We're primarily an OEM manufacturer," says Anthony Lucas of Eminence. "Of course we started our own branded line in 1999 to gain some brand recognition, but we've been an OEM manufacturer since 1966. Now that we have our own branding line we've broadened our market to focus not only on major manufactures but also on the people down the street - the end user."

So.............I guess it wouldn't hurt to know what smaller brands are associated with some of the big boys. Since many builders farm out contracts for these builds, one might like to know the genesis (or lineage) of how a popular speakers get assembled and marketed...

Doc Dosco