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  1. #1

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    Saw this guitar in person today. Hard as I tried, I could not figure out if the thin line around the headstock was wear, or a binding. It was pretty uniform in width/thickness. Is there a light colored wood overlay that is finished black on Gibson headstocks? That might explain it if it was wear.

    ps - The asking price is $6145. An odd number, I think for wiggle room.

    '58 ES-175:  bound headstock?-1958-es-175-jpg
    Last edited by Woody Sound; 02-03-2017 at 03:49 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Woody, I really doubt wear could be so even and uniformly distributed. Maybe special order? Perhaps the PO had it modded? We're not the first generation to dick around with gits.

    Did you get to play or hear it?
    Regards,

    Gary

  4. #3

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    Pretty sure that the price on that guitar is dictated by the PAF pickup. They are getting woo-expensive. Just my hunch, but the headstock doesn't look like a wear pattern. Seems like binding. Not a standard item on the 175, obviously.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI View Post
    Woody, I really doubt wear could be so even and uniformly distributed. Maybe special order? Perhaps the PO had it modded? We're not the first generation to dick around with gits.

    Did you get to play or hear it?
    No I didn't, I was there for another matter. Was kinda rushed and feeling a bit jittery from coffee, so I didn't want to chance hurting something. Didn't see the case, but I did notice the Grovers/Shallers. Everything else appeared to be in excellent original condition. I did lean over to take a look down the fingerboard, and it looked nice and straight, possibly original frets. I might go back next week to play it just for the experience.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone View Post
    Pretty sure that the price on that guitar is dictated by the PAF pickup. They are getting woo-expensive. Just my hunch, but the headstock doesn't look like a wear pattern. Seems like binding. Not a standard item on the 175, obviously.
    The guy in the shop told me he was offered $4k for the pickup, but he didn't want to do that.

    I said THANK YOU FOR THAT.

  7. #6

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    Gibson used Holly veneer dyed black as the headstock facing up until the late 1960's. It is a very white wood. However, that looks deliberate and is either binding or perhaps the holly revealed as a band then lacquered over. Have you made sure there is no headstock damage that's been covered up?

  8. #7

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    possible special order.
    I've also seen some unbound headstocks w/painted on 'binding'

  9. #8
    Another view. Looks like wear around the G string corner.

    '58 ES-175:  bound headstock?-1958-es-175-2-jpg

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound View Post
    Saw this guitar in person today. Hard as I tried, I could not figure out if the thin line around the headstock was wear, or a binding. It was pretty uniform in width/thickness. Is there a light colored wood overlay that is finished black on Gibson headstocks? That might explain it if it was wear.

    ps - The asking price is $6145. An odd number, I think for wiggle room.

    '58 ES-175:  bound headstock?-1958-es-175-jpg
    It's binding. A few were made that way as custom orders, for instance, this one:

    Lost & Found: Bill's Gibson ES-175, The Fretboard Journal Documents His Story | www.billfrisell.com

    and of course Metheny's.

    John

  11. #10

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    Pat Metheny's ES175 also seems to have a bound headstock, IIRC
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  12. #11

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    Bill Fisells 175 (that he got back a couple of years ago after having sold it a loooong time ago) had a bound headstock.
    IIRC he bought it from his teacher who had custom ordered it.


    Edit: yeah I dictated that to my phone, and no I'm not going to fix the mistakes.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI View Post
    Maybe special order?
    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone View Post
    Not a standard item on the 175, obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    possible special order.
    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    A few were made that way as custom orders
    You are all characteristically charitable, carefully avoiding one highly-likely answer: In 195x somebody screwed up and somebody's boss said, "Ship it, Louie!"

    Quote Originally Posted by old tube View Post
    Have you made sure there is no headstock damage that's been covered up?
    That is always a sound inquiry, binding or not.
    "Don't worry about that. Everybody talks about finding your voice. Do your homework and your voice will find you." - Branford Marsalis

  14. #13

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    Metheny's 175 DOES have a bound headstock. I've been THIS CLOSE to it. Man it was BEAT, had more duct type tape on the body sides. That was in 1990.

    Big

    '58 ES-175:  bound headstock?-p8180009-jpg

  15. #14

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    To me it looks like binding. Also the rosewood of the fretboard looks surpricingly fresh for a 60 years old guitar so maybe it has had a major overhaul sometime in its life.
    "But if they all play like me, then who am I?" (Lester Young)

  16. #15

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    Gibson did make variations in those days. Metheny's 1960 ES175 not only came stock with a bound headstock, it also had the selector switch in the L5 position. I would presume that this 1958 guitar is original. Regarding the pickup, long magnet PAF's are selling for 2-3K these days. 4K sounds high, but who knows? Like prime real estate, they ain't making any more these days. A vintage 175 is a wonderful thing.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  17. #16

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    My Godin (not a vintage guitar) has a light stripe around the edge--TBH even looking at it closely I can't tell if it's a binding strip, or just the edge of the cherry headstock that's framing the black veneer. It almost looks like the veneer is set into the headstock, instead of just laid on top. My guess is that it's a thin wood strip.

    '58 ES-175:  bound headstock?-img_7453-jpg

    For some reason this is rotated, but you get the picture (pun intended).

    Re' Metheny's guitar--it's pretty well known that he was disappointed with the SB guitars he had when he was learning, and he jonesed for a real hollow body. He got a single-PU 175 when he was in Jr. High, and, since that was the style in those days, added a second pickup himself using tools from the wood shop. Not a pro job by any means.

    'I retired the ES-175 in 1995. It was really getting rickety, and I realized it's the only material thing on Earth that, if something happened to it, I'd be really upset. That guitar has been part of my life since I was 13 years old. I love it--it's so soulful. I've never had any work done on it. I'd still be playing it if it wasn't falling apart so badly, but I really don't want to fix it.'

    Pat Answers - Pat Metheny talks trios, tones & technique

    He also said in another interview that 2 songs on Letters from Home were recorded with his Ibanez, not the 175, and he challenges listeners to tell the difference.

    A 175 is the only guitar I'm really jonesing for right now--had one in the 80's, let her get away. $6000 is a bridge too far for me though unless I win the lottery...

  18. #17

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    Cool guitar! What store did you see this at?

  19. #18

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    I didn't know that Metheny put in the second pickup himself haha wow. Is there a story as to why he took it out with the knots and all? Seems like even if you don't use it, taking it out and putting tape over the hole isn't really a better solution than just leaving it in there and not using it?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ View Post
    Metheny's 175 DOES have a bound headstock. I've been THIS CLOSE to it. Man it was BEAT, had more duct type tape on the body sides. That was in 1990.

    Big

    '58 ES-175:  bound headstock?-p8180009-jpg
    I saw that guitar around 1976/77 and there was already duct tape on the lower bout. Didn't notice if the toothbrush was there.
    Ignorance is agony.



  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    Gibson did make variations in those days. Metheny's 1960 ES175 not only came stock with a bound headstock, it also had the selector switch in the L5 position. I would presume that this 1958 guitar is original. Regarding the pickup, long magnet PAF's are selling for 2-3K these days. 4K sounds high, but who knows? Like prime real estate, they ain't making any more these days. A vintage 175 is a wonderful thing.
    in fact ..as Pat explained by himself ..he personally modified his "bounded headstock 175"..by himself at the age of 15 i'd rather think ( and not 13 as indicated in this article: Pat Metheny | Vintage Guitar(R) magazine )..!!! ...an other thing concerning this guitar ..he bought from an father of a non came-back to country ...young vietnam war soldier around summer 68 ( as he was currently 14 year old...!..note that the precocity match the prodigy !!)..that ...I could observed from.. when I luck-ally met the master in several back-stages..( I was musician and professional career manager..!)..is that ...this undeniably "custom made" of" kalamazoo workshop"...came with one of the darkest "jacaranda" fretboard available..and more pronounced headstock reverse angle.. an "all-things"...that's make it particularly "unique" ..( as the very special 2" depth ..ebony fretboard ..one pickup closer neck.."ordered" by joe pass..!)

  22. #21

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    I'm surprised Gibson didn't offer a Pat Metheney Signature Model...with all of the duct tape, amateur pickup routing, bound headstock and massive yet accurately rendered wear and tear.

    I bet they could offer them for $5k.


  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler View Post
    I'm surprised Gibson didn't offer a Pat Metheney Signature Model...with all of the duct tape, amateur pickup routing, bound headstock and massive yet accurately rendered wear and tear.

    I bet they could offer them for $5k.
    Case candy could include a horizontal-striped shirt.
    -- Isn't it crazy that "archtop" and "luthier" are spelling errors on this forum?

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound View Post
    Case candy could include a horizontal-striped shirt.
    . . .and possibly a wig.

  25. #24

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    When is he gonna cut that hair? Looked super ridiculous back then and just terrible now.

  26. #25

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    Lol. Kind of a brand or trademark now.

  27. #26

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    this is a pretty darn nice looking one w/one of the nicest backs I've seen on a vintage 175.
    and it's another one w/bound headstock and painted f-holes..
    on closer inspection it almost looks like there's a white overlay under the black overlay and the edge of the black was scraped at an angle to reveal the white, like an original Stromberg


    1957 GIBSON ES-175 N D PAF's Natural Very Clean ALL ORIGINAL with OHSC ES175ND | eBay

  28. #27

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    That's a beauty for sure. I've often wondered how quickly something like this moves at 9500.?? Even as a collectable I wonder if there is much of a market for it especially given the state of archtops right now..

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    this is a pretty darn nice looking one w/one of the nicest backs I've seen on a vintage 175.
    and it's another one w/bound headstock and painted f-holes..
    on closer inspection it almost looks like there's a white overlay under the black overlay and the edge of the black was scraped at an angle to reveal the white, like an original Stromberg


    1957 GIBSON ES-175 N D PAF's Natural Very Clean ALL ORIGINAL with OHSC ES175ND | eBay

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiboyny View Post
    That's a beauty for sure. I've often wondered how quickly something like this moves at 9500.?? Even as a collectable I wonder if there is much of a market for it especially given the state of archtops right now..
    Even though archtops are down I'm surprised this is still for sale. This is about what a sunburst 50's PAF ES-175D sells for in this condition, let alone blonde.
    Surely someone will come along and rape it for the parts

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMgolf66 View Post
    When is he gonna cut that hair? Looked super ridiculous back then and just terrible now.
    It's official - we've become our parents!

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    Even though archtops are down I'm surprised this is still for sale. This is about what a sunburst 50's PAF ES-175D sells for in this condition, let alone blonde.
    Surely someone will come along and rape it for the parts
    I agree, Wintermoon. I think this is a very good price for this vintage 175 in blonde. Especially if one could negotiate a slightly better deal.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    Even though archtops are down I'm surprised this is still for sale. This is about what a sunburst 50's PAF ES-175D sells for in this condition, let alone blonde.
    Surely someone will come along and rape it for the parts
    Parting out such a beautiful jazz guitar would really be a shame, but it might happen. The parts are worth a lot of money. Someone should buy it just to save it from the paf pirates.
    Keith