Gibson L-50, Black Special 1937, converted into ES-150 CC

[Fred Archtop]

Thanks for posting that demo. Do you know which pickup he put in that? I could not help but listen to these one after another to see how they sound. Amp settings probably different. I used a EH-125, which amp are you using?

Hello icr,

Daniel has mounted a CC PU from CC UK. As for the amp, I am using a Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue and I am playing on the reverb chanel. The microphone used for the registration is a Shure SM57. So nothing special here, no fancy trick.

I hear a very nice sound in your video clip. As a comparison with my own sound, it seems you are using more reverb (maybe a little bit of delay ?). Your sound is also brighter, certainly a matter of tone control. In my clip the tone knob is just opened a little (1/10 I would say). Then of course strings and pick have their own contribution to the sound. Here, my L-50 is mounted with Daddario roundwound strings (12-54 if I am correct) and I am using a thick pick made out of buffalo horn (3 mm).

Cheers

[icr]

Thanks for the additional information on your guitar. So our guitars both have a CC pickup from UK. Looks like yours has the six notches. I went with flat wounds when I first strung it after the repairs, never tried anything else.. I don't know what Raney or Christian used, do you know?

In terms of delay and reverb, I'm a big Metheny fan and was thinking what kind of production he would use with my guitar. Funny that after I finished mine, I saw Metheny had the Slaman CC pickup guitar. I'm still waiting to hear what he does with it in the studio. I heard one live clip and it sounded like he was using a traditional tone. I think you posted the link.

[campusfive]

Flatwounds were not available in the 30's. Exactly when they were introduced is a bit hard to pin down, but I know (studio legend) Bob Bain (who started his career playing with Freddie Slack in 1941 or 1942) related to me that flatwounds came in to use in the mid 50's, and he specifically attributed being introduced to them by no less than George Barnes. Flats are not mentioned as an option in any Gibson catalog up to an including 1950. I'd guess

So, to answer your exact question, Charlie Christian most certainly did not play flats, and would've played Monel. As for Jimmy Raney, he may well have had access to flats starting in the mid 50's - whether he actually used them, I couldn't say.

[icr]

Thanks for the info. I had thought that since upright bass and violin strings are flat wound, that flat wound came first in the history jazz guitar.

[Fred Archtop]

Hello jazz guitarists,

My contribution to the everlasting debate on flatwound vs. roundwound.

Cheers.

[stringmaster]

Awesome guitar! I find that both rounds and flats work well with my CC equipped Slaman--I tend to go back and forth lately. Congratulations!

[mad dog]

As if we needed more temptation ... that black guitar is knockout. I would so love to have a Slaman built or modded guitar.
MD

[pubylakeg]

I went with flat wounds when I first strung it after the repairs, never tried anything else.. I don't know what Raney or Christian used, do you know?

After quite a lot of focused headphone listening, I'm pretty certain Raney used roundwounds, at least in the 50's between the "Visits Paris" recording and the "featuring Bob Brookmeyer" session. Initially I did wonder whether his choice of roundwounds may have been due to what was available in Europe at the time he recorded "Visits Paris" but his tone (including string squeak) would indicate that he was using them 2 years later ('56) on the Brookmeyer session. It's interesting that Raney also credits the engineers on the sound of the Brookmeyer record. I've also read that Raney went through a period of using black nylon strings in the 70's, but judging his tone by the 80's, I suspect he'd gone over to flatwounds.

I'm also strongly suspecting Rene Thomas used rounds as well, but I'll need to do some more listening to confirm that.

On a related note, La Bella actually state on their website that they developed the first "ribbon wrapped" (ie. flatwound) string in 1940.

[Fred Archtop]

OMG, who butchered that wonderful acoustic guitar by cutting and drilling holes in the top? That may be fine to do to a Kay, Harmony or a Silvertone, but it kills the value of a real Gibson. Gibson made a bunch of ES series including the ES150 CC model, so there is no viable reason to mutilate an L-50 to make it into an ES150. The cost of the work plus the cost of the instrument is more than what you could buy a CC ES 150 for, and now of course, the L-50 is worth less because it has been modified with holes in the top which kills it's acoustic properties. Just make no sense at all, but whatever .

It's a matter of viewpoint and it has been debated a lot on this forum on who has the right or not to modify an historic instrument. A lot a questions you're asking have been adressed in my first post above. The 'butcher' you're judging is Daniel Slaman, one of the very best luthiers when it comes to prewar Gibsons. Daniel makes incredible instruments that are respecful to the Gibson archtop golden era and he certainly doesn't deserve to be named a butcher. He did the conversion himself before I realized he had this guitar in his workshop. And yes, for a CC PU addict like me, it is a wonderful instrument with an instant reference to the first batch of 10 L50 black Special #4 that were transformed into ES-150 by Gibson in 1936.

Your statement on the price is wrong. This instrument cost me a fraction of a prewar ES-150. And it is equally wrong to say that this guitar has lost its value or has its "acoustic properties killed". Actually, it is one of the most resonant archtops I have, and I have quite a few from the same period. What makes no sense for people make sense for others.

[Cunamara]

Arguably an L-50 is not a particularly historic instrument. It was produced in large quantities over a long period of time and it was basically a student grade instrument. This is not a Loar era L5 or a D'Angelico, Stromberg or other rarity. And the end result is a very fine instrument. When it comes down to "who has the right" to do something with an inanimate object, the answer to that question is "the owner" and the values or goals of the owner may not square with someone else's. But it's the owners decision. See, for example, Howard Roberts's "black guitar" or Jim Hall's ES-175, Pat Metheny's ES-175, Jerry Garcia's "Alligator," etc.

[Fred Archtop]

When it comes down to "who has the right" to do something with an inanimate object, the answer to that question is "the owner" and the values or goals of the owner may not square with someone else's. But it's the owners decision. See, for example, Howard Roberts's "black guitar" or Jim Hall's ES-175, Pat Metheny's ES-175, Jerry Garcia's "Alligator," etc.

Could not agree more. And to add just a few: Louis Stewart’s prewar Es-150 with cutaway, Barney Kessel’s ES-350 heavily customized, Doug Raney’s ES-350 and L7 and so on.

[Jabberwocky]

And Chet Atkins's D'Angelico

[Greentone]

I love good L50s, but I side with Fred Archtop here. I have played L50 to ES 150 conversions...heck, that's what Gibson did...and they are exceptional.

Anyway, you own it, you can customize it.

[Little Jay]

Just looking at the pictures of that converted L50 would make me butcher any L50 into an ES-150..... gorgeous!

Daniel is a good butcher ;-)

[Jabberwocky]

All this talk about butchers...